Theresa Tennyson Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 (edited) 8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Ok, there are a lot of EEPs in the library. But tweaking an EEP setting to make it work better in an PBR enabled environment should be relatively trivial when compared to the labour that must have gone into actually changing the rendering system. I'd have thought that a single person who knew what they were doing could accomplish it in a few days, or a week at the outside. And I don't know why they haven't. It's like paying to have new tires put on your car, only to discover that the auto shop hasn't bothered to inflate them. Finish the job, LL. "Nam's Optimal Skin" "Annan Adored Realistic Ambient" "CalWL" Aren't you asking for Linden Lab to start messing with somebody else's work, not to mention the fact that Library assets are also used by non-PBR viewers? Meanwhile, I've tested a few of the "non-name-brand" environments in the Library that were actually LL-provided and they seem to be pretty plausible with the EEP viewer. (I'm using the latest EEP update official viewer release candidate - skies look much better than the original EEP release.) Edited March 4 by Theresa Tennyson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Aren't you asking for Linden Lab to start messing with somebody else's work, not to mention the fact that Library assets are also used by non-PBR viewers? What I asked was... 13 hours ago, Rowan Amore said: If they had shipped an entire PBR friendly folder with environments, then we wouldn't have a problem but they didn't. Inside that Settings folder in Library could have been a PBR environments folder. They're the ones who brought us PBR so they should have, at the very least, given us more than one appropriate EEP setting. 3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Meanwhile, I've tested a few of the "non-name-brand" environments in the Library that were actually LL-provided and they seem to be pretty plausible with the EEP viewer. (I'm using the latest EEP update official viewer release candidate - skies look much better than the original EEP release.) Did you look at any PBR enabled content? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 11 hours ago, Rowan Amore said: What I asked was... Inside that Settings folder in Library could have been a PBR environments folder. They're the ones who brought us PBR so they should have, at the very least, given us more than one appropriate EEP setting. Did you look at any PBR enabled content? I'm looking at a whole wall full of various PBR samples. Things look the way they're supposed to no matter which legacy environment I'm using, taking into account the overall color/brightness of the lighting. There's nothing magical that needs to be done to make PBR "work." http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Sverdlovsk/55/238/104 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic Aeon Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 35 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: I'm looking at a whole wall full of various PBR samples. Things look the way they're supposed to no matter which legacy environment I'm using, taking into account the overall color/brightness of the lighting. There's nothing magical that needs to be done to make PBR "work." http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Sverdlovsk/55/238/104 I LIKE the stuff here and have some. Cheap and come with normal map as well as diffuse. SOME however are made with small textures (like 256) and look pretty awful on anything largish. MEANWHILE. what I see on log in with default lighting shared environment. Mid day My typical default setting (bright summer day 3 pm) And I get huge differences -- some nice and some bizarre. Here is one made for a snowy sim a few years ago. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Bardeen Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 If your stuff doesn't look right in the default viewer day cycle then it's not fit for purpose. If nothing looks right in the default viewer day cycle then Second Life is not fit for purpose. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 On 2/29/2024 at 12:57 PM, Sid Nagy said: So basically SL is made more complicated once more, just because LL had lightning devs hanging around since Phil closed his shop and came back and LL wants to be able to say that we endorsed a new shiny. Sigh. yep a (useless) new shiny, that seems about all LL is capable of. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 16 minutes ago, Yorkie Bardeen said: If your stuff doesn't look right in the default viewer day cycle then it's not fit for purpose. If nothing looks right in the default viewer day cycle then Second Life is not fit for purpose. Everything i own looks great at noon, even my full bright hair. 😁 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 44 minutes ago, Yorkie Bardeen said: If nothing looks right in the default PBR Fail-viewer day cycle then the default PBR Fail-viewer is not fit for purpose. Fixed that for you. You're welcome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 On 3/4/2024 at 4:39 AM, Theresa Tennyson said: Meanwhile, I've tested a few of the "non-name-brand" environments in the Library that were actually LL-provided and they seem to be pretty plausible with the EEP viewer. (I'm using the latest EEP update official viewer release candidate - skies look much better than the original EEP release.) Fine for people who's heads are in the clouds I guess. Just sayin'. 😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 1 hour ago, Yorkie Bardeen said: If your stuff doesn't look right in the default viewer day cycle then it's not fit for purpose. If nothing looks right in the default viewer day cycle then Second Life is not fit for purpose. Judging from my past experiences, I'm guessing that issues will get patched, people will adapt and eventually the general public will think of PBR as something that's been around forever. Even most of the people complaining in this thread. (Some might have burned through another avatar by then though.) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 5 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: people will adapt 5 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Even most of the people complaining in this thread. You are an optimist!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 Funny how some have gone from, "There are no problems, everything is fine for me" to "Issues will be patched". 🤔 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said: Funny how some have gone from, "There are no problems, everything is fine for me" to "Issues will be patched". 🤔 Who might those "some" be? (And I'll be looking for quotes.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 I sat down and started going through all the system environments and applying them to myself one by one. None of them look 'wrong' with my own PBR content. Sure they can probably look 'better' if I edit the old environment and give it HDRI scale etc. But are they broken without it? no. I think some of the complaints are a bit overblown to be honest, having put what is being complained about into practice. It feels like people are complaining about theory instead of what happens in practice. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 15 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said: I'm looking at a whole wall full of various PBR samples. Things look the way they're supposed to no matter which legacy environment I'm using, taking into account the overall color/brightness of the lighting. There's nothing magical that needs to be done to make PBR "work." http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Sverdlovsk/55/238/104 1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Judging from my past experiences, I'm guessing that issues will get patched, people will adapt and eventually the general public will think of PBR as something that's been around forever. Even most of the people complaining in this thread. (Some might have burned through another avatar by then though.) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 I used to work in architecture. There's a concept called "substantial completion." That's when a building is considered to be basically complete and ready for the owner to take over, but there will still be a few issues that can and should be fixed. From what I see, the LL PBR viewer is "substantially complete." I use it every day. There are some minor issues; some of them don't have anything to do with PBR rendering. I'm not seeing anything that isn't fixable though. For some reason my news aggregator thinks I want to read articles from the British newspaper The Daily Telegraph. The Daily Telegraph is basically Fox News wearing a bowler hat. One of the many things they find wrong with the world today, along with Meghan Markle and people saying nasty things about fox hunting, are electric cars. If there's any sort of issue with an electric car they'll run a screechy article about them and how disastrous they are. Yes, the current generation of electric cars have issues, and I neither own one nor plan on buying one soon. But I can see many very real advantages to them, and the issues they have fixable and are being worked on from a lot of different directions. And the issues don't change the natural advantages they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 Somehow, "Second Life will get Patched".. ..Somehow..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 44 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Yes, the current generation of electric cars have issues, and I neither own one nor plan on buying one soon. Aren't you glad no one is forcing them on you? People who have always and will always use the SL viewer are basically forced to use a product with issues. Thank god for TPVs. For the record, I have nothing whatsoever against LL updating to PBR. What I have always maintained is HOW they went about it, i.e. PBR environments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Gorky Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 41 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: Somehow, "Second Life will get Patched".. ..Somehow..! Surely it’s not complicated? Create a varied range of EEP settings then test them on the various types of content. Pick the one that works best for use as the default. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 8 minutes ago, Porky Gorky said: Surely it’s not complicated? Create a varied range of EEP settings then test them on the various types of content. Pick the one that works best for use as the default. That LL had to come back and make a legacy midday should have told them they needed to work on providing users with appropriate EEP settings. It would have been the right way to do it. These pics are using the Firestorm beta PBR INSIDE my home. The first is default midday and the second is the legacy one they added later...HUGE difference and not something your average user is going to understand how to fix. Most people haven't a clue. The STUFF in my house, I couldn't care less about but not even being able to see my avatar? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 8 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said: Aren't you glad no one is forcing them on you? People who have always and will always use the SL viewer are basically forced to use a product with issues. Thank god for TPVs. As a matter of fact, I always do use the SL viewer. But nobody is "forcing" anyone to use it. New users? Firestorm's got one of the biggest new-user gateways out there. "The EEP presets are broken?" A true new user probably won't even know that they're there, and if they do find them, someone who's really new won't think that CalWL looking flaky is more of an issue than Pirate's Dream or Weird-O looking flaky. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said: That LL had to come back and make a legacy midday should have told them they needed to work on providing users with appropriate EEP settings. It would have been the right way to do it. These pics are using the Firestorm beta PBR INSIDE my home. The first is default midday and the second is the legacy one they added later...HUGE difference and not something your average user is going to understand how to fix. Most people haven't a clue. The STUFF in my house, I couldn't care less about but not even being able to see my avatar? "Embrace the Dark Side!" "Hello, Darkness, my old friend.." "Are you a Master of the Dark Arts"? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 10 minutes ago, Porky Gorky said: Surely it’s not complicated? Create a varied range of EEP settings then test them on the various types of content. Pick the one that works best for use as the default. It is failure by a thousand paper cuts. PBR is not easy but no doubt some will slog through. Others just simply can't be bothered to breast another steep learning curve along with all the other steep learning curves which by themselves individually aren't too big of a thing but all massed together, becomes overwhelming. You may be interested in it because you make more money along with some other creators but for quite a few of us, PBR, EEP is just an unnecessary PITA that in no ways enhances the world in how we may use it while dire changes that would, are passed by. At some point we realize that the Lab will never do anything that makes this world easier to manage and confidence is lost that management has any real clue about what is important in making a virtual world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 7 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: Others just simply can't be bothered to breast another steep learning curve Presumably you're talking about creators here, as customers do not need to learn anything. They rez their PBR house and it's already set up for them, it just works. If they use an old EEP, the sky doesn't fall, and the PBR house still looks better than their neighbors legacy one (assuming its an actually good creation). So then what exactly does a creator have to learn? How to make a PBR material? Well if they're using Blender, they were already making PBR materials and had to convert them to work with the legacy renderer. For most creators creating in PBR removes Second Life specific steps of the content creation process. It makes it easier. Speaking as a creator who uses PBR, authoring materials for Second Life has become faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 24 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: It is failure by a thousand paper cuts. PBR is not easy but no doubt some will slog through. Others just simply can't be bothered to breast another steep learning curve along with all the other steep learning curves which by themselves individually aren't too big of a thing but all massed together, becomes overwhelming. You may be interested in it because you make more money along with some other creators but for quite a few of us, PBR, EEP is just an unnecessary PITA that in no ways enhances the world in how we may use it while dire changes that would, are passed by. At some point we realize that the Lab will never do anything that makes this world easier to manage and confidence is lost that management has any real clue about what is important in making a virtual world. Its all about getting those 20 yr old gamers to play, if they make it look cool enough they will sign up in droves, look around and go oh gawd this is so lame, and leave in droves. 😂 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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