Why I Don't Like PBR

[Theresa Tennyson]

5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I have had a few customers complain that they couldn't see to shop, and when I asked them to lower their graphics settings they gave snark with "we're not changing our setting just to shop in your store"!   Sigh

Are you saying that they should?

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

9 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I have had a few customers complain that they couldn't see to shop, and when I asked them to lower their graphics settings they gave snark with "we're not changing our setting just to shop in your store"!   Sigh

Are you saying that they should?

If they want to buy my stuff currently, yes.

But like all the other LL changes that screwed up some of my more complex merchandise, I will adjust and move on...

[Luna Bliss]

11 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Are you saying that they should?

Aside from shopping in my store in a skybox, when people shop for skyboxes (a main focus of my store) they should change their graphics settings because otherwise the skybox they seek to buy will be too dark.  Hopefully lowering graphic settings will remove shadows in the future, or there will always be a way to uncheck 'shadows'. 

[Love Zhaoying]

Is PBR affected by "height" in any noticeable ways, like some other height-related "drawing" issues with SL (caused by precision problems at large heights)?

[Conifer Dada]

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

OR... you could start a thread saying, "Why are my textures loading slowly?" Because ultimately, this is the problem.

Try this - go to "Debug Settings" and then "HttpPipelining." Try changing it to "FALSE"; if it's already on "FALSE" try switching it to "TRUE."

I checked this - it was on "TRUE" so I changed it to "FALSE". Sadly I don't think it made any difference.

[Jenna Huntsman]

1 hour ago, Conifer Dada said:

that it's possible to disable PBR by going to 'advanced' > 'rendering types' and unchecking PBR. Doing this made no difference to performance or graphics.

That's because this option doesn't really disable PBR. It just stops any surface with a PBR material from being rendered, for debugging purposes. You can disable Blinn-Phong in the same way, too.

[Qie Niangao]

46 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Aside from shopping in my store in a skybox, when people shop for skyboxes (a main focus of my store) they should change their graphics settings because otherwise the skybox they seek to buy will be too dark.  Hopefully lowering graphic settings will remove shadows in the future, or there will always be a way to uncheck 'shadows'. 

Well, rather than lower graphics settings, in future everybody will be PBR-capable, so you'll be able to make reflection probes with arbitrary ambiance settings, particularly effective for interior spaces like skyboxes.

(That said, I don't know your skybox products, so my suggestions may not be useful. Just an idle observation that some folks might prefer an interior lit all or mostly by their own light sources, which I suppose makes such spaces more difficult to demo for sale.)

[Qie Niangao]

14 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

PBR:

Legacy:

Question: which one is more ”eye candy” ?...

Certainly PBR water is hideous (and personally, I'd gladly trade away all object reflections to have water reflections back), but there's something funky going on here with the mesh LODs on the PBR image: the masts and rigging are mostly missing from the two boats on the right, something I don't recall noticing as a PBR rendering problem. Not sure if it indicates any other incomplete rendering in the image; I'm not seeing any.

[Solar Legion]

.... If you're expecting an xx50 card to run SL decently ... stop.

A GTX 980 or 980 TI runs SL well enough but the 50 is not intended for such uses - ever, no matter what anyone tells you.

Further stop with the hyperbole already, you're helping no one at all.

ETA: To aid with clearing up confusion - if your nVidia card ends in 50, you're on a mid end 'budget' card. Can you run SL? Sure. It may even be what some may consider to be 'decent enough' ... You're not gonna get much visual quality nor should you expect any sort of truly decent performance. At all.

Edited January 12 by Solar Legion

[Henri Beauchamp]

56 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

but there's something funky going on here with the mesh LODs on the PBR image: the masts and rigging are mostly missing from the two boats on the right, something I don't recall noticing as a PBR rendering problem. Not sure if it indicates any other incomplete rendering in the image; I'm not seeing any.

The green boat was also missing on login: I right-clicked on it to get it to appear, but forgot the two boats on the right... The Cool VL Viewer was not impacted, because it got a workaround for this years-old bug (race condition between interest list sending by the sim and spatial partitions rebuilds in the viewer renderer)...

Here is what the scene looks like in the Cool VL Viewer, with PBR mode on:

Note how the water is a bit less ”sky blue” (I hacked the water shader for this).

Edited January 12 by Henri Beauchamp

[Istelathis]

9 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

A 1050 is new enough that one should be able to go to a medium sized venue and be able to see the scene and everyone in it, load within a minute or two, any more then that and the clubs and venues will start to lose clientele and there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth. And they definitely shouldn't be relying on a TPV running forked code as an alternative to their own supposedly flagship viewer by which the rest are set. That is a failed implementation in the making no matter how you look at it.

From my understanding, it is an older budget video card for gaming.  The laptop I am running it on was released in 2017, I think I must have purchased it around 2018 or 2019, it is so old now that the oils in the plastics have dried and fractured in parts.  One of the screw wells for a hinge crumbled resulting in cracking the case which I had to fix with a spare piece of plastic epoxied over the laptop case 🤣  The battery is held in place by tape, because the locking mechanism for that crumbled as well. The screen itself has faded spots, and I think it is causing eyestrain because it is on the way out.

At this time, I could walk into a local Walmart and purchase a newer laptop with a 3060 video card for around $700 which had me tempted, but with the advances made in AI lately, and the likelihood of it only becoming more sophisticated I want something I can upgrade over the next few years.

Surprisingly, on the LL viewer with the PBR settings set high I can teleport into London City with the draw distance set to 128 and manage 12-20 FPS.  Right now I am standing there and the map displays 50 people in the region, this is really not all that bad, especially compared to ALM.  I'm walking around, seeing all of the avatars rendered when comparing dots to my mini-map and the FPS at this time is around 18, most of the avatars are displaying unless they are at really high complexity.  I would not say it is the pinnacle of smoothness, but for the purposes of SL it is good.

What I am getting at though, is that it is time to replace this old PC regardless.  There is only so much life you can get out of electronics, and considering its age it is time to retire it to my collection of older computers.  The fact that I can still run SL at a reasonable (for me) speed surprises me, if I were only to use SL I would probably hold on to this laptop for a couple of more years assuming that the laptop actually still runs for that long.  

Edited January 12 by Istelathis

[Love Zhaoying]

Seems like it would be unreasonable to expect an "older" piece of hardware to run "all" of the newest features.  So, anyone running such hardware would need to run at "low settings".

Google says the 1050 was release in 2016.  Getting closer and closer to that 10 year mark.

[Solar Legion]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Seems like it would be unreasonable to expect an "older" piece of hardware to run "all" of the newest features.  So, anyone running such hardware would need to run at "low settings".

Google says the 1050 was release in 2016.  Getting closer and closer to that 10 year mark.

Even on release the 1050 was not going to net anything beyond "runs somewhat ok"

[Istelathis]

17 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Seems like it would be unreasonable to expect an "older" piece of hardware to run "all" of the newest features.  So, anyone running such hardware would need to run at "low settings".

Google says the 1050 was release in 2016.  Getting closer and closer to that 10 year mark.

Surprisingly I can play Cyberpunk with it on lower settings, I mean.. sure sometimes the roads will not render while driving but I can play it 🤣 It also runs a version of stable diffusion, which surprised me as well.  The images generated usually take a bit over a minute, but all considering that is pretty cool.  

I remember back in the 90s and earlier 2000s I had to upgrade components every two years, or I was left behind as the games became more sophisticated.  For the past 15 years, it seems less upgrading has become necessary for me, which had me concerned that technology was slowing to a crawl.  Now it seems with what I am interested in, will require upgrades again on a regular basis which actually, despite the expenses, has me happy.  

With Second Life, they really needed to start moving forward as well.  Hopefully, they continue to advance their graphics as well as functionality or else we will end up looking like active worlds in the near future.  I'm still curious if we will eventually see our viewer move to Unity to match the mobile viewer and what sort of advancements we can expect out of that.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:

.... If you're expecting an xx50 card to run SL decently ... stop.

A GTX 980 or 980 TI runs SL well enough but the 50 is not intended for such uses - ever, no matter what anyone tells you.

Further stop with the hyperbole already, you're helping no one at all.

ETA: To aid with clearing up confusion - if your nVidia card ends in 50, you're on a mid end 'budget' card. Can you run SL? Sure. It may even be what some may consider to be 'decent enough' ... You're not gonna get much visual quality nor should you expect any sort of truly decent performance. At all.

You have a 1050 to speak from experience? I do, an Acer Nitro 5 with a 1050 that usually runs just my Opensim grid server but can be pressed into service to test viewers and with the latest SL viewer, it is auto set to a High graphics level. SL seems to have a higher confidence level then you. Mind you, on jumping to a 35 avatar venue it took a good 5 minutes to load everyone which is not much different from the desktop's 1070 which is my main machine. The FPS in case you wondered was around 35. There are quite a few out there with worse graphics. It wouldn't be my pick anymore to go with a xx50 but seems upgrading my Nvidia 1070 is going to cost me almost $1000 Canadian to upgrade and that would only be to keep up to the level of performance I have now. Since it is only for SL would need to upgrade, it makes it a questionable upgrade.

 

48 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

At this time, I could walk into a local Walmart and purchase a newer laptop with a 3060 video card for around $700 which had me tempted, but with the advances made in AI lately, and the likelihood of it only becoming more sophisticated I want something I can upgrade over the next few years.

Surprisingly, on the LL viewer with the PBR settings set high I can teleport into London City with the draw distance set to 128 and manage 12-20 FPS.  Right now I am standing there and the map displays 50 people in the region, this is really not all that bad, especially compared to ALM.  I'm walking around, seeing all of the avatars rendered when comparing dots to my mini-map and the FPS at this time is around 18, most of the avatars are displaying unless they are at really high complexity.  I would not say it is the pinnacle of smoothness, but for the purposes of SL it is good.

What I am getting at though, is that it is time to upgrade this old PC regardless.  There is only so much life you can get out of electronics, and considering its age.  The fact that I can still run SL at a reasonable (for me) speed surprises me, if I were only to use SL I would probably hold on to this laptop for a couple of more years assuming that the laptop actually still runs for that long.  

Ok but how long did it take it take for those 50 people to load and on what viewer? And what is it going to be like when there is a greater amount of PBR content inworld to load? Right now it is the inconvenience of having to deal with dark environments which I find to be especially hard on a laptop but in future I see it going to be even more frustrating for older people like myself whose eyes require more lighting to be able to see ok.

[Istelathis]

10 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Ok but how long did it take it take for those 50 people to load and on what viewer? And what is it going to be like when there is a greater amount of PBR content inworld to load? Right now it is the inconvenience of having to deal with dark environments which I find to be especially hard on a laptop but in future I see it going to be even more frustrating for older people like myself whose eyes require more lighting to be able to see ok.

It probably took a couple of minutes, most of the textures loaded quickly as well.  I think it helps out tremendously that I have my cache set to a ramdisk, as my video card only has 4gb and loading from my hdd slows it to a crawl.  This laptop only has 128 gb ssd, so I used to rely on a very slow secondary HDD meant for storage.  One of the upgrades I made to this laptop was to increase the ram to 20gb, 2.5gb is assigned specifically for SL as cache.

I'm actually the opposite for my eyesight, I have to turn on night light mode for windows because bright lights really mess with my vision, at least on this laptop.  When reading text on bright backgrounds from this laptop, my eyesight starts to get blurry, it sucks getting older 😢 I'm not sure if it is specific for this laptop though, as the screen is getting older and I am hoping it is just that which is causing the problems.  My phone doesn't seem to have the same effect on me despite the text being smaller.

Edited January 12 by Istelathis

[Theresa Tennyson]

43 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Right now it is the inconvenience of having to deal with dark environments which I find to be especially hard on a laptop but in future I see it going to be even more frustrating for older people like myself whose eyes require more lighting to be able to see ok.

There's an "exposure" slider in graphics preferences that lightens/darkens the entire view persistently.

[Solar Legion]

Hate to break it to you but the Viewer's guess at what graphics settings will work well is just that - a guess.

You like the way it performs? That's nice! Good for you!

Meanwhile the xx50 designation is for the mid-range budget cards - that is the reality. Mind if you're only using it for Second Life, well then use what works for you. Just don't misrepresent the card, m'kay?

[Istelathis]

One thing I have always loved about older computers, is just how much creativity it takes to keep them running on modern infrastructure.  I have an Amiga 1200 which I can still connect to the web with, stream music from, and even a few years ago maintained a webpage from.  

It is fascinating to me, just how long we can keep these old things running and performing tasks no one thinks they are capable of, even using Windows 98 into the 2000s was possible, because people creating updates to make it capable of working with newer software.  Things like KernelEx, kept many web browsers running on older systems for years.  At one time in the 2000s I was amused with finding out that many of the ATMs were running win 3.11.

Watching people play Doom 3 with a voodoo 2 is a real kick.

It becomes a hobby in of itself, a passion for some to keep them going for as long as possible, in fact entire communities have sprung up online, dealing with retro computers and game consoles, people love it, and there is support - not usually from the people who produced the computers, or designed the operating system, or even the games.  

I know a lot of people have voiced concern about older computers, but people who run these older setups also are usually pretty experienced with their computer, how to get them to work with newer platforms, and using viewers like CoolVL created by @Henri Beauchamp will keep them going for while to come.  I know some people have even gotten it to work on a RPI, I'm curious if it would be possible to get it working on PCem running windows 98 😝 I know I've seen people run Minecraft on such a setup.

I think ultimately, for those who can't upgrade, they will be used to keeping up with newer technology via alternative methods.  I also think LL knows this, and probably why they have not gone out of their way to update their own viewer to accommodate them.  They have looked at their userbase know most of the computers being used can handle the viewer, and are pushing forward.  

Edited January 12 by Istelathis

[Gabriele Graves]

7 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Even on release the 1050 was not going to net anything beyond "runs somewhat ok"

On top of that laptop variants of GPUs don't have the same speeds as desktop variants to start with.  Once you start to add the extra laptop heat, that GPU is going to throttle down to some degree as will the CPU.  Even more so as the laptop ages.

On a desktop PC you are getting a better variant of GPU with the same name and if built right the cooling can handle the GPU being used without throttling.  Dust and fluff can also be air dusted out of a desktop more easily to keep everything cooler.

Edited January 13 by Gabriele Graves

[Arielle Popstar]

4 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

On top of that laptop variants of GPUs don't have the same speeds as desktop variants to start with.  Once you start to add the extra laptop heat, that GPU is going to throttle down to some degree as will the CPU.  Even more so as the laptop ages.

On a desktop PC you are getting a better variant of GPU with the same name and if built right the cooling can handle the GPU being used without throttling.  Dust and fluff can also be air dusted out of a desktop more easily to keep everything cooler.

Desktops are harder to lug around for the portability and need long extension cords.

[Gabriele Graves]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Desktops are harder to lug around for the portability and need long extension cords.

Yup, it's definitely a trade off but that's the reality.

[Arielle Popstar]

6 hours ago, Istelathis said:

It probably took a couple of minutes, most of the textures loaded quickly as well.  I think it helps out tremendously that I have my cache set to a ramdisk, as my video card only has 4gb and loading from my hdd slows it to a crawl.  This laptop only has 128 gb ssd, so I used to rely on a very slow secondary HDD meant for storage.  One of the upgrades I made to this laptop was to increase the ram to 20gb, 2.5gb is assigned specifically for SL as cache.

I stuck a 1 TB stick of those Samsung PCIe NVMe in and that made for a dramatic improvement in the playability from the previous Sata drive it came with.

6 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

There's an "exposure" slider in graphics preferences that lightens/darkens the entire view persistently.

Ok thanks, that helps though unfortunately works only on the defaults.

[AmeliaJ08]

On 1/12/2024 at 7:02 PM, Solar Legion said:

Hate to break it to you but the Viewer's guess at what graphics settings will work well is just that - a guess.

You like the way it performs? That's nice! Good for you!

Meanwhile the xx50 designation is for the mid-range budget cards - that is the reality. Mind if you're only using it for Second Life, well then use what works for you. Just don't misrepresent the card, m'kay?

My experience is with a 1050Ti, 1650 (desktop and mobile) and 1650Ti. The 1050Ti struggled, I would say it is on the far lower end of what you want for SL. It will work, frame rates rarely breach 40 in any scene though.

The 1650's however are adequate still, they suffer from the limited 4GB VRAM though and a busy scene will choke them but then SL chokes everything. They render fast enough though, the 1650Ti in particular is probably the best but only found in laptops but it's actually quite an impressive performer given the TDP.

1060 or 1660 6GB is a good budget option for SL, performance about 25% higher than the 1650Ti in my experience. Seems to cope with PBR reasonably well too, it's not some mega card spitting out hundreds of frames per second but it's adequate for a 30-60fps experience even in very detailed sims with moderate numbers of avatars. 1660 is the best of the two and they're very cheap these days.

 

Yes, I test a lot of cards and laptops

 

Edited January 14 by AmeliaJ08

[Arielle Popstar]

On 1/14/2024 at 11:12 AM, AmeliaJ08 said:

My experience is with a 1050Ti, 1650 (desktop and mobile) and 1650Ti. The 1050Ti struggled, I would say it is on the far lower end of what you want for SL. It will work, frame rates rarely breach 40 in any scene though.

It is all quite relative though isn't it. Those running high end cards of course don't think the card is adequate but to someone with an older card or relying on an Intel integrated video, it would be quite an affordable boost upwards.