Yet another "thinking out aloud" topic. (About why I play a female avatar often. Relates to "masculinity")

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Bagnu said:

I'm in Canada. My first doctor and dentist were female. I still tend to think of a doctor as a woman. My parents both worked, so they had to share household chores. They had a very equal relationship. I'm sure there were things I didn't notice, and they didn't. I didn't notice anything different at university either. The only thing different was clothing in all cases.

Interesting.

I grew up with a mother from Texas who used terms like 'ladydoctor' and 'ladylawyer'.

[Bagnu]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Interesting.

I grew up with a mother from Texas who used terms like 'ladydoctor' and 'ladylawyer'.

So? did that make the doctor any less a doctor? Or the lawyer any less a lawyer?

Edited September 29, 2023 by Bagnu

[Luna Bliss]

Just now, Bagnu said:

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Interesting.

I grew up with a mother from Texas who used terms like 'ladydoctor' and 'ladylawyer'.

So? did that make the doctor any less a doctor?

Oh sweet summer child...

[Ceka Cianci]

10 hours ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

That's cool. Happy to know a fellow 86er!

And I read through the rest of the thread. Thank you all for your input, advice and encouragement, I really appreciate it.

Gopi, Maybe this will help some..

From my experience during school and growing up is this.. That most of the ones that were assholes along the way that had that built into them and then grouped up with others like them, usually end up as losers  after they get out of school.. Because once they tended to drift or get stuck in place living  their past lives while sitting around drinking and going over the old days.. It's that or they finally grew up and became better people because they realized it was time to put childish  things away..

I see so many people that used to be in that in crowd in school that are sitting in that same spot just spinning their wheels..

There is a lot of good men that grew up that way also, but were brought up to respect other people..

I remember getting picked on by boys and girls because of not who I was but what I was, but at the same time there was some good people that stepped in and  put a stop to it more than a few times..

I've said this before and I will stand by it and say it again.. there is A-holes in every group and category that we put people in.. but there is also  some very good standup people in them as well..

Just find comfort in knowing a lot of those jerks are probably still spinning their wheels in the same spot talking about how cool high school was and that those were the days..

 

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

Hey, Gopi, I think I understand your OP.  On any given day, I can't say I feel particularly feminine. The gender expression needle bounces back and forth all day long depending on how I feel or what I am doing. 

However, regardless of how feminine I do or don't feel, I have never wanted to be anything but female.

So, I am female in SL 95% of the time with occasional forays into genderless, male, or non-human forms.

[Istelathis]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Hmmm...I see the opposite -- it is our needing each other that causes us to love each other.

Imagine love that had no requirements or needs, other than just an emotional attachment people felt for one another.  Plus, when one is reliant upon another, when the inevitable occurs and one loses their lover they are left in a scenario where they no longer have a person to perform the tasks involved, or financial hardship.  I think it is better, that love exists without having to rely on one another, just love for the sake of love.  I mean, I guess that is relying on someone else to reciprocate the feeling though.

  

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I actually like our reliance on each other -- it's one of the things that connects us, and knits us together as a community.

It builds connections, but there is almost always a power struggle involved, people arguing with one another as to which direction the community goes, eventually if the community is big enough a split of the community.  We humans tend to consistently have these struggles with one another, and because we all vary so much in our views no one community can ever meet our needs.  Being free from relying on others would be beneficial, because everyone would have a say as to how they want to lead their lives without worry of being shamed, silenced, or expelled from the community.  They would be able to choose their community without having to compromise their own views, because there are only so many communities one can join that fit the majority of one's views.  

 

Edit:

sorry for derailing thread, I'm bad like that 😈

Edited September 29, 2023 by Istelathis

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Istelathis said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Hmmm...I see the opposite -- it is our needing each other that causes us to love each other.

Imagine love that had no requirements or needs, other than just an emotional attachment people felt for one another.  Plus, when one is reliant upon another, when the inevitable occurs and one loses their lover they are left in a scenario where they no longer have a person to perform the tasks involved, or financial hardship.  I think it is better, that love exists without having to rely on one another, just love for the sake of love.  I mean, I guess that is relying on someone else to reciprocate the feeling though.

That makes more sense to me if you're just talking about the material things we need.

We'll always need each other emotionally, and so that could be enough to keep bonds established.

[Ceka Cianci]

19 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

That makes more sense to me if you're just talking about the material things we need.

We'll always need each other emotionally, and so that could be enough to keep bonds established.

I think survival is a huge factor in things as well. In a perfect world we might only need emotional ties, but in a brutal violent world which ties into how the universe itself works.. We can't live on bread alone..

A world running on emotions would probably be just as violent as  one on running beliefs..

Just nature itself is violent without either of those added into the mix.. Before we were told what to feel by other people or to believe this or that by other people, we just seen things from the point of surviving..

More and more society is trying to tame  our animal side and kill off our ability to use our senses. Right now they have us collard with a piece of junk in the palm of our hands feeding us what to think and to hate and to love and to fear.. let alone divide us up into as many groups as they can so we are much easier to tame.

My survival instincts are screaming at me to fear that piece of plastic that sometimes takes up the palm of my hand.. hehehe

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Wow, lots to respond to. Gopi first:

On 9/28/2023 at 6:25 PM, Gopi Passiflora said:

Tl;dr: I think one of the reasons I play female avatars/characters in virtual worlds is because I never felt really "masculine" in my life, in combination with other more typical reasons like "admiring characters", "wanting to see different perspectives", etc.

Maybe? It's possible.

I'm a bit older than you (I'm an 80s kid), but I was a teen in the 90s, so I know exactly the kinds of things you're referring to. 

The good news - I have a very open-minded family that never tried to force me into anything I didn't want to do. I took ballet and played with dolls and whatnot when I was younger, but that's because I felt like it at the time. I also loved to go fishing, turned the backyard into an archeological dig site, tried to science every insect I came across, was covered in more dirt and mud than Pig-Pen, binged raunchy comedy (the Redd Foxx variety), read horror, blasted industrial music, pranked people over the phone with Frank Zappa for giggles, played video games like crazy, and in my teens, rocked flannels and combat boots and way more skull jewelry than necessary.

It's from all that where I learned that it's okay to be damn different. No one ever made an issue out of it until I started dating. That's where the expectations to "be more girly" came in - my own teen peers. I rebelled hard. Ew. No, I will not "be more feminine." Instead, how about yOouUuUu *insert entire paragraph with 13+ variations of my favorite 4-letter word* and then *insert another paragraph with even more creative variations*, Samuel L. Jackson style. Oh, you think I should learn to cook? Domestic?? How about I cook yo... big-headed...lookin' like a...😒😂

I've always looked up to people who pushed gender boundaries, and, I suppose due to my rebellious nature, purposefully sought them out. My friends ranged from quiet soft-spoken guys to men who wore skirts and dresses and enjoyed drag to super forward girls who could drink a man twice their size under the table and easily win a bar brawl. Feminine men are a joy to be around. "Not feminine enough" raunchy women rock and I love having them as friends, too. As for me, I came to realize I'm a happy blend of all of that (minus the drinking and brawling - not my style), but some days, I lean more one way than the other depending on how I feel.

As for SL and games in general, I play whatever I want based on my current mood. Boyish female characters are my default choice, but if the game lets me play a feminine male character, I'm so there! Some days in SL, I'm a very feminine woman or female character, and I'm okay with that, too. Doesn't typically last long, though. 😄 Other days, I'm a feminine male. Other days - rockin' a tomboy. Buff Conan-style male characters, though - not really my jam and I tend to avoid those. For me, overly masculine men are a turnoff. If I had to guess why, that's likely because those were the types who gave me the hardest time about my appearance and behavior. 🙄
 

1 hour ago, Istelathis said:

It is one of the things that excites me about AI, it is just one more step in the direction that we will be less reliant on one another, be it for social activities, or even resources.  As far as I see it, it is a step toward freedom so long as it is not abused to enforce the will of the few over the many.

Disagree, but the reasons why are wildly off-topic. Let's just say that's not why this tech is being developed and why some of the worst companies are investing billions into their training. 

 

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Exactly! This is to some degree exactly what SL has accomplished: it's technology that has permitted people to express themselves safely in ways that would make them targets of scorn or hate in RL.

Sorta yes, sorta no. As a "not feminine enough" fluid gal (and lawwwwd knows when I'm fully male) in SL, I'm still not immune to the criticisms and obnoxious picking that some men feel the need to do. Not hate, just whining. Why are you a guyyyy turn baaaaaaack what's with that haiiiir why so many piercings fix your nooooseeee change your shape waaaaaaaaaaah. *eyes roll into the sun* Things only improved once I got away from the social world and turned into a photography hermit! Friends are always supportive no matter what my crazy butt shows up lookin' like (of course, they're different, too!), but mannnnnn, trying to exist my own way is a struggle sometimes.

[Paul Hexem]

How come everything's gotta be reduced to toxic this or toxic that? That word gets thrown around way too much these days.

[Bagnu]

3 hours ago, Istelathis said:

Unfortunately, that is how we do.  If masculinity and femininity were ever to become so meaningless (which to me they are) we would still be finding ways to push people into conformity, and trying to control one another.  I do hope though, that as we become less reliant upon one another due to technological advances, people will just be able to laugh at those trying to impose their own will over the will of others and walk away.  As it is now though, due to our reliance upon one another it is just a pipe dream.  It is one of the things that excites me about AI, it is just one more step in the direction that we will be less reliant on one another, be it for social activities, or even resources.  As far as I see it, it is a step toward freedom so long as it is not abused to enforce the will of the few over the many.

Technological advances actually force us to become MORE reliant on each other. Microprocessors can't be "fixed" if they burn out. They can only be replaced. One single person can't design, program and fabricate one. We now rely on these microprocessors that are created by teams of people for our daily survival.

[Bagnu]

2 hours ago, Istelathis said:

Imagine love that had no requirements or needs, other than just an emotional attachment people felt for one another. 

 

This is exactly why so many SL relationships die so quickly.  The emotional "high" can only last for a limited time, so people look for another one. 

[InnerCity Elf]

I'vr always found and still find it amazing why anyone cares about gender, masculinity, femininity,... Doing what, wearing what, being with who makes one happy, as long as one doesn't harm others, doesn't force others, etc., of course, should be the norm, and not be looked down on, made fun of, or worse. I utterly fail to understand why anyone makes it their business, and, after half a century of walking this earth, find it very sad that despite all the (partly just superficial?) improvements, there still are people who do make it there business to put down others for non-reasons, and completely harmless people who feel they are shunned or thought lesser of for being or not being this or that. I just don't get it.. Perhaps I just don't get people on the whole.

In any case, if nothing else, shouldn't people be glad that not everyone is the same flavour of "feminine" or "masculine"? Wouldn't that be very boring? I wonder if they'd be happier in a world where everyone neatly would fit into their boxes, and there only were their limited and preferred boxes to fit in. Maybe, or maybe they'd start picking on people with a slightly larger vocabulary than theirs, or who need three seconds longer to lace their shoes, or something.

Edited September 30, 2023 by InnerCity Elf

[Bagnu]

59 minutes ago, InnerCity Elf said:

I wonder if they'd be happier in a world where everyone neatly would fit into their boxes, and there only were their limited and preferred boxes to fit in. Maybe, or maybe they'd start picking on people with a slightly larger vocabulary than theirs, or who need three seconds longer to lace their shoes, or something.

You hit the nail right on the head. They absolutely would be happier, and would find other things to pick on.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Bagnu

[Love Zhaoying]

12 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

How come everything's gotta be reduced to toxic this or toxic that? That word gets thrown around way too much these days.

I know, right? It's so..Toxic!

[Luna Bliss]

2 hours ago, InnerCity Elf said:

I'vr always found and still find it amazing why anyone cares about gender, masculinity, femininity,... Doing what, wearing what, being with who makes one happy, as long as one doesn't harm others, doesn't force others, etc., of course, should be the norm, and not be looked down on, made fun of, or worse. I utterly fail to understand why anyone makes it their business, and, after half a century of walking this earth, find it very sad that despite all the (partly just superficial?) improvements, there still are people who do make it there business to put down others for non-reasons, and completely harmless people who feel they are shunned or thought lesser of for being or not being this or that. I just don't get it.. Perhaps I just don't get people on the whole.

In any case, if nothing else, shouldn't people be glad that not everyone is the same flavour of "feminine" or "masculine"? Wouldn't that be very boring? I wonder if they'd be happier in a world where everyone neatly would fit into their boxes, and there only were their limited and preferred boxes to fit in. Maybe, or maybe they'd start picking on people with a slightly larger vocabulary than theirs, or who need three seconds longer to lace their shoes, or something.

Haha yes I used to be so perplexed over this -- over why someone would consider it their business if a person was trans, or gay, or thought they were an apple and wanted me to address them as Mr. Apple John. I used to say to the ultra-religious folks where I'm located that if they're against gay marriage then they should not marry a gay person!
I'm not sure, however, my appeals to individual sovereignty did any good.

The reality is that people need other people and this is a very powerful force in society that many want to exert control over. Humans are a communal species, and this aspect of our lives (how we connect with others energetically, including our sexual energy) is of primary importance. With anything powerful we have more of a need to control it.
Societies are arranged in certain ways, and everybody wants a say in how they think that should be, what they think is optimal. Take, for a vivid and extreme example, the society the guy with the funny mustache wanted to create in the 1930's and 40's -- people did not like his vision and it was fought against and trampled.

It's all too easy for those with power, or who want to have the power and control, to manipulate others for their benefit. They can run away with all the goodies then. They get us all stirred up about the powerful forces inherent in our lives in order to achieve their goals. They appeal to the higher authority too many desire to have as a way to order a complex and confusing world, or appeal to some mythical utopian past in an effort to make us shun societal changes.

[Istelathis]

14 hours ago, Bagnu said:

Technological advances actually force us to become MORE reliant on each other. Microprocessors can't be "fixed" if they burn out. They can only be replaced. One single person can't design, program and fabricate one. We now rely on these microprocessors that are created by teams of people for our daily survival.

It is far, far, far easier to go through life today without having to see another person than it was even just twenty years ago.  I can work remotely, have food delivered to my house, and spend weeks not seeing a soul if I wanted to.  I wonder if many schizoid people rejoice in knowing this - we will not likely know because they are more likely to keep it to themselves 🤣

14 hours ago, Bagnu said:

This is exactly why so many SL relationships die so quickly.  The emotional "high" can only last for a limited time, so people look for another one. 

I'm not sure about SL relationships, and have wondered the dynamics at play when it comes to relationships in a virtual setting.  What can one really offer outside of love though, I mean perhaps some virtual land, and a conversation, but outside of these is there much left to rely on?  I know some virtual relationships have lasted for years, some have extended past SL.  That stretches into a whole other topic.

3 hours ago, InnerCity Elf said:

I'vr always found and still find it amazing why anyone cares about gender, masculinity, femininity,... Doing what, wearing what, being with who makes one happy, as long as one doesn't harm others, doesn't force others, etc., of course, should be the norm, and not be looked down on, made fun of, or worse. I utterly fail to understand why anyone makes it their business, and, after half a century of walking this earth, find it very sad that despite all the (partly just superficial?) improvements, there still are people who do make it there business to put down others for non-reasons, and completely harmless people who feel they are shunned or thought lesser of for being or not being this or that. I just don't get it.. Perhaps I just don't get people on the whole.

In any case, if nothing else, shouldn't people be glad that not everyone is the same flavour of "feminine" or "masculine"? Wouldn't that be very boring? I wonder if they'd be happier in a world where everyone neatly would fit into their boxes, and there only were their limited and preferred boxes to fit in. Maybe, or maybe they'd start picking on people with a slightly larger vocabulary than theirs, or who need three seconds longer to lace their shoes, or something.

I think Luna put it best, it comes down to control, people like to have that sort of power over others.  You see it everywhere, people want others to conform to their ideals so that their own world makes a little more sense, they probably like the stability as well.  Living in a world that is not as static, which is always changing and uncertain is scary for them I'm sure.  I don't even think the terms masculine and feminine should exist anymore because there really is no perfect definition outside of our own heads, and it is often entirely different in different regions.  As we become less reliant upon local communities, and the social norms are expanded, they make less sense (at least to me)  take for example, pink by no means should be considered feminine, talking softly should not be considered feminine, being shy should not as well.  Seeking power, being a so called "alpha*, weight lifting, and so on should not be masculine.  All of these traits are not inherently masculine or feminine, whatever that means anymore.

 

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

The reality is that people need other people and this is a very powerful force in society that many want to exert control over. Humans are a communal species, and this aspect of our lives (how we connect with others energetically, including our sexual energy) is of primary importance.

Yep, and as I wrote earlier as technology advances we will have less of a need other people, and become less reliant upon them - which is why I feel it leads to more freedom.  People will rely on others less as a form of social connection, eventually even sex will be able to replicated into artificial form - which is a matter of debate and outright terror for some.  Some people even have gone so far as to fight against it, which is kind of a desperate move because it is almost inevitable at this point, barring any catastrophe. 

People of course still find connections with others, but it will be a lot easier to let go of communities that do not fit your needs, you will be able to have stimulating conversations with artificial beings that feel real, you will likely even be able to have multiple personalities in your own artificial community.  People laugh at it now, they think it is impossible, they fear it, they think it is laughable, but here we are with super computers in our pockets and people used to laugh at the idea of that, think it is impossible, fear it, and laugh at the computer nerds.

I'm already having interesting dialogue with a self hosted chatbot, learning new things, having fun conversations, playing text based games, having debate, it is here, right now, and it is going to get more advanced as time goes on.

Technology, I would bargain is the sole reason why most of us see society in such a flux, and people able to express themselves as much as they do now because we have become less reliant upon one another.  Unfortunately, it can also be used as a tool to promote hate, to convince others to join hate groups, and so on.  Hopefully, as technology advances, people have more options available to them and don't feel so isolated due to lack of socializing and feeling alone, they  will not seek out groups that push out hate as well.  

Edit:
Just to note here, I am expanding upon what has been said by others, not trying to create arguments, sorry if my post comes across that way or anything.  I'm not trying to represent any view people I have quoted  here, rather just letting my mind wander as I string along my own thoughts.  After reading my response, I hope none of you feel as though I am misrepresenting your own views.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Istelathis

[Bagnu]

27 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

It is far, far, far easier to go through life today without having to see another person than it was even just twenty years ago.  I can work remotely, have food delivered to my house, and spend weeks not seeing a soul if I wanted to.  I wonder if many schizoid people rejoice in knowing this - we will not likely know because they are more likely to keep it to themselves 🤣

I'm not sure about SL relationships, and have wondered the dynamics at play when it comes to relationships in a virtual setting.  What can one really offer outside of love though, I mean perhaps some virtual land, and a conversation, but outside of these is there much left to rely on?  I know some virtual relationships have lasted for years, some have extended past SL.  That stretches into a whole other topic.

 

It's very true that we can go a long time without seeing anyone, but that doesn't negate our reliance on others. In order to be here, we have to rely on people to design and build the microprocessors were using.  And people to cook our food and deliver it if we choose that.

I'm in two serious relationships which are not exclusive of each other. In both cases it's a mix of RL and SL, with one being more about RL. Maybe that's what creates the positive dynamic? I don't know. One other important thing for us is having sexual preferences that are outside of what is considered standard, and can be acted out in SL. That creates a bond as well. 

[Persephone Emerald]

@Istelathis, @Luna Bliss, @Ceka Cianci, @InnerCity Elf, @Bagnu

I think we're getting some interesting ideas in this thread that probably deserve a new thread of their own.

Why do we need other people? How much do we really need other people, given the technological advances we're seeing? 

Why do people care how other people identify & what they do that doesn't personally affect them?

Who has a stake in controlling how the wider population thinks or behaves? Who gains or loses if the wider population has more relaxed or more restrictive views of what gender is and how people should behave based on gender - or race, or social status, etc.?

How can we relate these questions to Second Life, though?

I think Istelathis points us in a direction that relates directly to SL: how a virtual world such as SL could change how we view gender - and perhaps other personal factors such as disability or socio-economic status - and how do we relate to each other as human beings when we usually only see each other as avatars or words on a screen? Do people seem less real and thus less worthy of concern and care when we don't see them face to face? 

If I start a new thread on these questions, I might not be able to moderate it as well as it deserves, so I would depend on everyone who's interested in discussing these ideas to help keep it on track.

 

Here's the thread I just started:

Edited September 30, 2023 by Persephone Emerald
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