Yet another "thinking out aloud" topic. (About why I play a female avatar often. Relates to "masculinity")

[Love Zhaoying]

One nice thing about "thinking out loud" posts is, they help the OP and others who are "thinking" from "I thought this before" to, "I know this now."

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It is.

And I actually dislike people who play "Gotcha!" and try to assume the "higher ground" by calling out well-meaning people who've momentarily slipped up, or even may have simply got something wrong. You don't persuade or educate by trying to publicly embarrass someone who, in most cases, is already on the side of the angels.

In your case, I know that you have a good grasp of this stuff already, and that you are, as you say, an ally. As an ally myself, I have been frequently corrected by trans people: when they do it intelligently and sensitively, I am grateful. When they don't, I still learn, but wonder what they think they have to gain from alienating people who are on their side.

It's just the nature of the darn beast, people only "know" their own experience which makes it almost impossible to use new language they haven't "thought in" yet. Thank God, the younger generation has so many who are beyond that when judging themselves.

A lot of this applies to SL, which I meant to include in my last post. Most people think "their" Second Life is one thing or another, to the exclusion of the bigger, more inclusive picture.

[Istelathis]

I wish I had some invaluable advice to offer you Gopi, but really it is a silly world we live in and I have yet to make sense of it all.  Instead, I will offer you a plate of refried spaghetti, I seared the parmesan cheese, so it is nice and crunchy, and I used real butter.  Gender is a confusing subject, I'm afraid, as are all social structures we people have created for ourselves, constantly changing, constantly in flux, trying to make sense of it is like trying to find where the start of one noodle to the end of it, without unravelling your entire plate.  I say, just eat it and enjoy instead of letting it get old and cold.  

Gender has changed a lot since I was born, so have expectations out of gender.  It used to be considered "gay" for a son to hug their own dad, now it is acceptable, things are weird like that.  I guess years ago, male soldiers were often engaged in romantic relationships with one another and it was acceptable, then things once again changed.  There is debate about hunters and gatherers and the role of gender.. Heck once upon a time, not too long ago, people used to dress up their boys as girls.  My point is, what is masculine and feminine are not grounded in any real sense of cosmic reality, it is just an imaginary thing we created and like most imaginary things, subject to change. 

Trying to make sense of it all, well, good luck my fellow SL denizen.    Anyway, I'm off to bed, I hope you enjoyed my spagett if you had any, instead of just playing around with it and trying to makes sense of the tangled mess of noodles seared in butter and cheese. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Istelathis

[BillFletcher]

It is an interesting thought, the influence of the ideas of masculinity vs. femininity that we have been taught when younger. I think that there was a tendency at least among my generation to associate doing art with femininity. Real guys do no go out and do art. So I wonder if that subconsciously has influenced my use of female avatars when I have used SL to create art. Not that I have not be influenced by some of what the OP calls the typical ulterior motives as well. I do find myself more inspired to create more artistic images when using a female avatar, and thinking about it now it is probably more do to the stereotyped attitudes I was taught as a child than any actual artistic merit.

[Gopi Passiflora]

8 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Hey, I was born that year too!! \o/

I thought I sensed something familiar about you.. hehehe

That's cool. Happy to know a fellow 86er!

And I read through the rest of the thread. Thank you all for your input, advice and encouragement, I really appreciate it.

[Bagnu]

14 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

To elaborate a bit on what Stephanie and some others have said above, Gopi: gender isn't an either/or proposition, and the only choices aren't "male" and "female." In fact, I don't even think it's a spectrum: it's much more complicated than that.

While there are obviously some things that are related to biological sex (which, actually, is also not immutable or simple), most of the things that we associate with "masculinity" or "femininity" have been arbitrarily assigned to those categories by a culture that wants us to be straight-jacketed within fairly restrictive definitions. In reality, there is no reason why a "man" can't be sensitive or emotional, and a woman display supposedly "masculine" traits such as strength, logical thought, and even violence. We know, in fact, that this isn't an aberration: people are  like that, and it doesn't mean that they are "broken" or "damaged" or "sick."

Representing as a woman because it allows you to express traits and needs that are traditionally viewed as "feminine" doesn't mean you are any less a "man": it just means that you are acknowledging and expressing the kind of human complexity that a patriarchal culture is uncomfortable with.

We're getting better at recognizing that women and men can be anything, and that culturally-determined gender categories are fictions. And we are slowly and haltingly (but surely) moving towards a place where we can all be whom we want to be, in all of the astonishing, chaotic, and wonderful diversity that that can entail, without feeling bullied by conventional rules and constraints.

I'm not arguing your point as it stands at this moment in time. But I took a moment to extrapolate the thought of this to an extreme. Wouldn't this all ultimately result in total homogeneity?  Where simply is NO gender identity? And a total lack of diversity?

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Istelathis said:

Regardless, Gopi as far as I know it, is not doing this for sex.  

Then I feel justified in reporting the hateful posts for being off-topic! 

[Sid Nagy]

Pro tip: Don't follow threads where you don't really want to hear what others have to say about the subject. There isn't always one truth and the rest is wrong.
That said, I'm tiptoeing out again.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Scylla Rhiadra]

14 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

I'm not arguing your point as it stands at this moment in time. But I took a moment to extrapolate the thought of this to an extreme. Wouldn't this all ultimately result in total homogeneity?  Where simply is NO gender identity? And a total lack of diversity?

No, why would it? That's like saying that the fact that there are no meaningful cultural or social differences between blonde, brunette, and red hair, or blue eyes, green eyes, and brown eyes, has meant that all hair or all eyes have become the same colour.

The point of questioning the gender binary isn't to remove differences, thereby simply imposing a NEW norm on everyone (i.e., homogeneity).

The goal is to free everyone to express themselves in the way that is unique to them, independent of the constraints imposed by a society that believes that all men act in THIS way, and all women in THAT. We are all unique mixes of different traits, perspectives, and ways of thinking. Let us express those honestly, openly, and without being bullied by those who don't think that this, that, or the other isn't "manly" or sufficiently "feminine."

[Luna Bliss]

21 hours ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

"masculinity" and the pressure for boys and men to conform to this ideal.

Yeah there are such strong expectations, causing men to limit their lives in major ways until they get a chance to be how they want to be.

I told you awhile back I finally got a male avatar to explore, and experienced myself as stronger and having more substance right off the bat.

Well I went to this class the other day and had to say a few things, not quite aware that I was in my male avatar, and suddenly realized 'omg, I think I'm sounding like a girl'. It was because I was expressing myself in a more feeling way and using smiley faces like 

So yeah, even as a girl/woman I picked up ideas about how men are supposed to behave, and felt self-conscious that I was not presenting myself in the way society might expect a male to be.

My exploration continues...

[Luna Bliss]

27 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

Wouldn't this all ultimately result in total homogeneity?

We are evolving into beings of light -- it's just going to take 20,000 years of so -- so some say..  

[Arielle Popstar]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The goal is to free everyone to express themselves in the way that is unique to them, independent of the constraints imposed by a society that believes that all men act in THIS way, and all women in THAT. We are all unique mixes of different traits, perspectives, and ways of thinking. Let us express those honestly, openly, and without being bullied by those who don't think that this, that, or the other isn't "manly" or sufficiently "feminine."

Sure and keeping in mind that the degree of masculinity vs femininity will have ramifications in how one is perceived and sought after for relationships. If for example females predominantly look for masculine men, then it stands to reason that those who are not, may not be as sought after or accepted for longer term relationships as those who are. This would go a long way to helping those who are or are close to involuntary celibacy, understand why they might not be as successful with the other gender.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

Sure and keeping in mind that the degree of masculinity vs femininity will have ramifications in how one is perceived and sought after for relationships. If for example females predominantly look for masculine men, then it stands to reason that those who are not, may not be as sought after or accepted for longer term relationships as those who are. This would go a long way to helping those who are or are close to involuntary celibacy, understand why they might not be as successful with the other gender.

My degree of blondness has an effect on how I am sought after for relationships. Or how tall or short I am. Or how large my breasts are. Etc.

Sure, and of course.

[belindacarson]

I'm getting old.  On this entire thread I could only read sid's and love's posts.

Edited September 29, 2023 by belindacarson
forgot to mention sid

[Love Zhaoying]

I figured it out, invoking "Incels as Trans" is a form of the False Equivalency fallacy.

[Bagnu]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

No, why would it? That's like saying that the fact that there are no meaningful cultural or social differences between blonde, brunette, and red hair, or blue eyes, green eyes, and brown eyes, has meant that all hair or all eyes have become the same colour.

The point of questioning the gender binary isn't to remove differences, thereby simply imposing a NEW norm on everyone (i.e., homogeneity).

The goal is to free everyone to express themselves in the way that is unique to them, independent of the constraints imposed by a society that believes that all men act in THIS way, and all women in THAT. We are all unique mixes of different traits, perspectives, and ways of thinking. Let us express those honestly, openly, and without being bullied by those who don't think that this, that, or the other isn't "manly" or sufficiently "feminine."

I DO get what you're saying. I simply went to an extreme extrapolation of what I felt is a possibility. I DO think though, that there will always BE a new cultural norm, that constantly changes. One that bullies and imposes. If it's not about gender, it will be about something else.  

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Bagnu said:

I DO think though, that there will always BE a new cultural norm, that constantly changes. One that bullies and imposes.

Of course. Nirvana is not just around the corner.

The struggle goes on.

[Quartz Mole]

Please, let's stick to SL with this discussion and not get sidetracked into discussions of incels or trans-non binary in First Life.

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

I DO think though, that there will always BE a new cultural norm, that constantly changes. One that bullies and imposes. If it's not about gender, it will be about something else.  

Good, a chance to fight 'the good fight'.  Stay busy!

ooops...posted this and saw the message from Quartz...hope it's not off-topic.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Luna Bliss

[Bagnu]

15 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Good, a chance to fight 'the good fight'.  Stay busy!

ooops...posted this and saw the message from Quartz...hope it's not off-topic.

LOL, I always seem to, but time to get back on topic. You know I started as a female AV, and an escort. It was a chance to explore my sexuality, as you know. i still do that occasionally. But mostly because it's required in certain situations with Caitlin. If it wasn't, it would simply be to look at an attractive female AV, and see her in sexual activity. I personally feel neither masculine or feminine. I am simply "me".

Edited September 29, 2023 by Bagnu

[Luna Bliss]

10 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

I personally feel neither masculine or feminine. I am simply "me".

Were there any male-female stereotypes prevalent where you grew up? Or was that not so pronounced as it tends to be in the US and some other places?

[Istelathis]

47 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

I DO get what you're saying. I simply went to an extreme extrapolation of what I felt is a possibility. I DO think though, that there will always BE a new cultural norm, that constantly changes. One that bullies and imposes. If it's not about gender, it will be about something else.  

Unfortunately, that is how we do.  If masculinity and femininity were ever to become so meaningless (which to me they are) we would still be finding ways to push people into conformity, and trying to control one another.  I do hope though, that as we become less reliant upon one another due to technological advances, people will just be able to laugh at those trying to impose their own will over the will of others and walk away.  As it is now though, due to our reliance upon one another it is just a pipe dream.  It is one of the things that excites me about AI, it is just one more step in the direction that we will be less reliant on one another, be it for social activities, or even resources.  As far as I see it, it is a step toward freedom so long as it is not abused to enforce the will of the few over the many.

[Luna Bliss]

7 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

1 hour ago, Bagnu said:

I DO get what you're saying. I simply went to an extreme extrapolation of what I felt is a possibility. I DO think though, that there will always BE a new cultural norm, that constantly changes. One that bullies and imposes. If it's not about gender, it will be about something else.  

Unfortunately, that is how we do.  If masculinity and femininity were ever to become so meaningless (which to me they are) we would still be finding ways to push people into conformity, and trying to control one another.  I do hope though, that as we become less reliant upon one another due to technological advances, people will just be able to laugh at those trying to impose their own will over the will of others and walk away.  As it is now though, due to our reliance upon one another it is just a pipe dream.  It is one of the things that excites me about AI, it is just one more step in the direction that we will be less reliant on one another, be it for social activities, or even resources.  As far as I see it, it is a step toward freedom so long as it is not abused to enforce the will of the few over the many.

Hmmm...I see the opposite -- it is our needing each other that causes us to love each other.

In fact, some therapists treat children that have psychopathic tendencies and with their method they attempt to get the kids to need others, even hurting them to achieve this goal. For some reason they never experienced fully the pain of loss, and is why they were tending toward psychopathy (according to this theory). This is all wrapped up in theories about how we develop a conscience.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Luna Bliss

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

Unfortunately, that is how we do.  If masculinity and femininity were ever to become so meaningless (which to me they are) we would still be finding ways to push people into conformity, and trying to control one another.  I do hope though, that as we become less reliant upon one another due to technological advances, people will just be able to laugh at those trying to impose their own will over the will of others and walk away.

Exactly! This is to some degree exactly what SL has accomplished: it's technology that has permitted people to express themselves safely in ways that would make them targets of scorn or hate in RL.

I actually like our reliance on each other -- it's one of the things that connects us, and knits us together as a community. But technology can enable us to better choose those upon whom we rely, and it can render the expression of hate much less harmful. SL is full of people who harbour hate. But there's not a lot they can do to really effectively force it upon others here.

7 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

As it is now though, due to our reliance upon one another it is just a pipe dream.  It is one of the things that excites me about AI, it is just one more step in the direction that we will be less reliant on one another, be it for social activities, or even resources.  As far as I see it, it is a step toward freedom so long as it is not abused to enforce the will of the few over the many.

It's the last bit that has me most worried. AI isn't directionless or independent: it's programmed by real people, for real companies, with real agendas.

And I'm not sure I think we'll improve as a more tolerant and just society if its final impact is to turn us all into isolated solipsists, happily shouting at ourselves in echo chambers created by AI that tell us exactly what we want to hear.

[Bagnu]

I'm in Canada. My first doctor and dentist were female. I still tend to think of a doctor as a woman. My parents both worked, so they had to share household chores. They had a very equal relationship. I'm sure there were things I didn't notice, and they didn't. I didn't notice anything different at university either. The only thing different was clothing in all cases.