Second Life as a combat game

[Paul Hexem]

3 minutes ago, animats said:

SL's architecture isn't that bad.

I have trouble believing this, unfortunately. Just look at ny other post in the tech subforum.

Not to mention, it's a pretty big "if" when we say "if viewer side rendering can be improved..."

Looking forward to your viewer being in a usable/beta stage to give it a try. If it fixes as many issues as you talk about, it'll make LL look pretty pathetic for not having done it themselves.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

3 minutes ago, animats said:

The graphics are good, the movement is a little off. We need better transitions between animations. There are requests for LSL calls to adjust animation speed and transitions.

The puppetry project seems to be on hold for now. That ran into some tough problems.

You're right. I should've clarified. The graphics were okay. I was mostly referring to the animations being a bit janky.

I can forgive a lot of jank, but I'm not a hardcore FPS player. I'd still much prefer to play FPS/TPS in an environment specifically designed around that activity, though, given all the other things I mentioned would be missing (sound effects, especially - footsteps can be critical). That also brings up a whole other area that SL would likely struggle with and games are still coming up with solutions for but are better equipped to solve - broadening accessibility options (like visualized sound effects).

[Sid Nagy]

SL should not try to be snake oil for all flavors.

[Ted McGregor]

42 minutes ago, animats said:

 Those problems have solutions and, importantly, can be solved one at a time. SL's architecture isn't that bad.

You will never solve this crucial one : hitboxes. SL can never attribute the same speed in processing this crucial aspect to FPS gaming. And this discrepancy is in it's very core.

You know that.

[Paul Hexem]

18 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

SL should not try to be snake oil for all flavors.

In my mind, that's actually the only thing SL has going for it, being the jack of all trades.

Every individual thing you can do in SL can be done better in other games, full stop, no debate. None of them however can do nearly as many things as SL can in a single package.

If SL can't continue to do all the things in an at least tolerable fashion, we might as well turn off the servers now. 

[Nalates Urriah]

When I was playing combat games like NOR, which was ~14 regions in its heyday, the lag was horrible when firefights broke out. At the time bullets were rezzed and sent on their way. So the rate of fire was limited. But even with the limits when 20+ people had their triggers pulled on full automatic, the lag was so bad a common tactic for players was to walk on the builets using them like a ladder.

Things have gotten better, the viewer, the servers, and the network speed (well for some of us the networks are better). But just 20 people dancing in a region slows a region. In the SL places where numerous people are using their animated genitals and furniture animations, the region lags. 20 people firing weapons requires the servers to distribute information on what each of the 'ray trace bullets' is doing. The physics engine trying to keep up and calculate impacts is way beyond the load from dancers in a crowded club.

Sailing with the Topless Cruise crowd on Tuesdays reveals regions where 5 or 6 boats have trouble sailing. Mix in some land with a navigable area and the scripts associated with dwellings and other stuff cripples boats.

I don't see the generic general-purpose nature of SL will ever allow specific high performance for combat. I don't see Twitch Gaming in SL's future.

I do think those who enjoy the laggy combat gaming of SL will find things getting better. But people coming from other games are going to think SL is WAY WAY too slow for combat.

[Dorientje Woller]

The only reason why FPS/Combat games won't work on SL: You can run Second Life on a potato that is more than 10 years old as intended, so nobody gets excluded.  

[Sid Nagy]

Let's create a continent for the combat games.
Shall we call it Zindra?

[Zalificent Corvinus]

12 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Let's create a continent for the combat games.
Shall we call it Zindra Bellicosia?

Fixed that for you.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, Dorientje Woller said:

The only reason why FPS/Combat games won't work on SL: You can run Second Life on a potato that is more than 10 years old as intended, so nobody gets excluded.  

Sorry but that's like complaining you can't use a kitchen mixer to Air-Fry chicken because the electrical sockets in the wall are over 5 years old.

 

SL isn't a "fps game", it's not built like a "fps game", it does EVERYTHING differently to a "fps game".

If somebody complained they couldn't fly a fighter jet in "Solitaire", or do Black Ops sniper missions in "Backgammon" you'd laugh at them.

You complain that we can't do "leet fps pew-pew" in SecondLife, and I laugh at you.

See how it works?

[JeromFranzic]

21 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Sorry but that's like complaining you can't use a kitchen mixer to Air-Fry chicken because the electrical sockets in the wall are over 5 years old.

 

SL isn't a "fps game", it's not built like a "fps game", it does EVERYTHING differently to a "fps game".

If somebody complained they couldn't fly a fighter jet in "Solitaire", or do Black Ops sniper missions in "Backgammon" you'd laugh at them.

You complain that we can't do "leet fps pew-pew" in SecondLife, and I laugh at you.

See how it works?

Ha, yep. The only RL person I talk to that even appreciates SL is a graphic artist. As far as I know, she used to be in SL but isn't into it anymore so she left.

I guess that's why I was patient about choosing to stay in SL a few years ago... and then I had to find out about Open Sim and eventually create a few accounts there too lol (but that's another story).

[Ceka Cianci]

On 8/30/2023 at 7:27 AM, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I gotta ask - why would I do that here when I could just fire up EFT, CS:GO, Warframe, COD, Valorant, or anything else with co-op or online PVP on the market? Imagine all the other stuff it'd be missing. Sound effects, music, loot, customizable weapons and gear, multiple maps, game modes, satisfying physics, interactive environments, full inventory systems, merchants, abilities and skills, rewards, story quests and campaigns...

Also, maybe unpopular opinion, but I don't think that looks very good. 👀

Ya, there has to be more than just action.. As well as  if there is action, it needs to be really good action..

About the only other thing I've done besides SL is, we have The Division  and Division 2.. I like those because of such details they put into the surroundings..

The division is a detailed map of Manhattan and Division 2 is a detailed map of Washington DC.. They even have under the  Lincoln memorial..

The creators  of the story and all the little side story's along the way.. They did a great job of tugging at my emotions to want to take back New York from the chaos..

I think if it wasn't so realistic  of  a possibility, they probably wouldn't have been able to do that.. Then three years later we actually enter into a pandemic.. A lot of things started to look really familiar.. hehehe

Now we let the boys play too, so we all get in there together  and tear things up.. hehehe

I couldn't do that in SL, not with the family..

The trailer for the first version really still gets to me..

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Ceka Cianci

[HeathcliffMontague]

Thanks for all that you do, animats, always trying to improve the overall expercience for all of us. But sorry, this will not attract any "real gamers" (as many prefer to refer to themselves) to SL IMHO. Sure, maybe attract some new users for a bit longer.

The reason why I often refer to SL as the best driving game I know has to do with such things like that the actual game physics are what you make of them, compared to any run of the mill PC or console game.

You can tweak your vehicle settings down to the millimeter in responsiveness, you actually get better in your vehicle over time the more you practice and get to know it (you just don't upgrade according to your XP), you can choose between a plethora of very low lag to very high lag tracks, can build your own bike down to the end of the exhaust pipe, can buy the scripts and just a basic shell or a beautiful mesh creation, insert scripts, even learn to modify them, and take in down a rabbit hole from there, you can chat with other builders/ creators until the wee hours.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Now we let the boys play too, so we all get in there together  and tear things up.. hehehe

I couldn't do that in SL, not with the family..

That's actually a really good point. There are definitely families who play FPS/TPS games together (Fortnite comes to mind, since it's on console with a gabillion licensed skins and the violence is minimal with people simply disappearing when eliminated, or maybe the hero shooters) and I can't reallllyyyy see that happening much here. At least, I would never recommend anyone under 18 to join SL for the gaming, anyway. 😄

I never played The Division, but it looks good. For me to really want to dive in and play an FPS or TPS, I'm gonna need some serious customization, story, and music. I heard NIN playing behind that Warframe: 1999 sneak peek a few days ago at TennoCon. You want me to play Warframe, that's how you get me to play Warframe. 🤣

[Ceka Cianci]

1 hour ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

That's actually a really good point. There are definitely families who play FPS/TPS games together (Fortnite comes to mind, since it's on console with a gabillion licensed skins and the violence is minimal with people simply disappearing when eliminated, or maybe the hero shooters) and I can't reallllyyyy see that happening much here. At least, I would never recommend anyone under 18 to join SL for the gaming, anyway. 😄

I never played The Division, but it looks good. For me to really want to dive in and play an FPS or TPS, I'm gonna need some serious customization, story, and music. I heard NIN playing behind that Warframe: 1999 sneak peek a few days ago at TennoCon. You want me to play Warframe, that's how you get me to play Warframe. 🤣

I really think you would love both D1 and D 2.. You can get them for hardly anything now.. As far as the story and stories, you can go as far as you want down the rabbit hole..

A lot of people say that it's like world of warcraft when building you builds for certain fights also..it's not just grab a gun and go.. you have to really put the right pieces together to get good synergy going.. It's a lot of fun getting creative with things like that..

The biggest mystery  in the whole series is the hunters.. They actually had to have code breakers break the hunter code to be able to find them in game..

I have no idea how they even ever found there were clues or where to find the clues to find the clues the hunters left for hunter recruits.. It's still hard to know what side they are on or if they are on their own side and against everyone..

There is a big universe with books and all kinds of things..

I won't take up the whole page talking about it, because there isn't enough page  and  time.. hehehe

I'll link you these though..It's all the trailers, I think before release.. everything you see is in both of the games.. The maps and environment have such tiny details and the music just sucks you in.. like really great action movie scores..

All the music in the videos is their music made for the games I believe.. I know I've heard them all in there and there is much more too..

Anyways, here you go.. just the links  because I don't want to eat up the thread with videos.. hehehe

I'm actually playing around in D1 this morning since I'm in my jammys and sick.. hehehe

D1 Trailers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSJs5zhTKYI

D2 Trailers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPFY41xNw0k

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Ceka Cianci

[gwynchisholm]

I genuinely can’t think of a worse platform for its core construction attributes to use for a shooter than SL.

Maybe RuneScape? Even then RuneScape is at least extremely low latency and tick responsive where the existing combat works precisely, even if the movement is clunky at least it would somewhat work.

SL being entirely server side and not regional just makes everything a laggy mess, but I think that point has already been brought up several times. Just the overall feel of movement and control in SL is terrible, it’s fine for a stand around and chat simulator, but it’s infuriating for anything else. Even for a super casual shooter game you still want precision in the general feel and control. Roblox games even with semi regional servers where a lot of players can be laggy to eachother, still feels smooth because of client side movement and animations. If you whip your cursor across the screen in first person your character is still going to whip their gun across the screen accurately and instantly, as it would in any other shooter like csgo or whatever.

But in SL if I whip my cursor across the screen in first person it’s a coin toss if it’s going to register that at all, and if it does it’s almost entirely random where my view will end up because it’ll be different every time. 

[elleevelyn]

would I think need to build a new kind of region server (perhaps as a separate estate to begin with) where all of the current client-server limitations could be addressed

[Mr Amore]

  

On 8/30/2023 at 4:55 AM, animats said:

Many SL users have no idea where the combat regions are.

 

So far as I know, the SL Combat scene faltered years ago. There were the CCS/DCS  sims, SL military sims and SL Gor sims, with hundreds of active players daily. But this was going back about a decade.

My experience of raiding in Gor was:

2008 - Around 40 players in combat would bring the sim to a standstill. Your avatar could be frozen in place for upto a minute, then inch forwards.

2012 - 60 player raids were possible, but the arrows would occasionally freeze. During these moments we'd advance in slow motion with swords drawn.

2014 - Large raids were much smoother, with my group at the time, we often hosted raids of 50+ players fighting simultaneously on our sim.

I haven't raided in a long while, the scene now is a fraction of its former glory. But in SL combat I would always prefer the mouse and keyboard over a controller.

 

On 8/30/2023 at 1:27 PM, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I gotta ask - why would I do that here when I could just fire up EFT, CS:GO, Warframe, COD, Valorant, or anything else with co-op or online PVP on the market? Imagine all the other stuff it'd be missing. Sound effects, music, loot, customizable weapons and gear, multiple maps, game modes, satisfying physics, interactive environments, full inventory systems, merchants, abilities and skills, rewards, story quests and campaigns...

Also, maybe unpopular opinion, but I don't think that looks very good. 👀

 

The real difference is, community. In SL there is roleplay among the rival groups, the raids are usually a consequence of hostile acts and the stakes are far higher.

Playing an FPS vs SL Combat, is like the difference between playing a single player RPG vs an MMORPG.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Mr Amore