Firestorm PBR Alpha viewer

[Kyrah Abattoir]

9 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

I might blacklist the UUID of that texture

Singling out a random creator isn't exactly a good way to stay in LL's good graces as a TPV dev.

9 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

your products will not look revoltingly ugly to people who do not use PBR.

There is always that I suppose, but it isn't really promoting PBR adoption.

It will look revoltingly ugly regardless, they will just assume I can't make textures rather than realizing this content isn't made for them.

9 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

And there was no possible fallback for mesh rendering in old viewers

There was, you saw a generic primitive, I used face 0 to hold the "this is a mesh!" texture. That's all you saw on a non-mesh viewer.

[Henri Beauchamp]

41 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Singling out a random creator isn't exactly a good way to stay in LL's good graces as a TPV dev.

Singling out random SLers is not the best way for creators to gain a good reputation...

And I would not single anyone, just blacklist textures which would ruin rendering for people not able/willing to use a PBR viewer: these textures would simply be replaced with a blank one, or with the base color one (my viewer can do that too, when not rendering in PBR mode).

44 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

There is always that I suppose, but it isn't really promoting PBR adoption.

PBR adoption would have been wider and easier, if only the PBR viewer had not been pushed too soon to release, especially with bad legacy contents rendering...

It's LL's fault, not yours or mine; and I did tell them but they did not listen...

48 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

It will look revoltingly ugly regardless, they will just assume I can't make textures

They will perfectly know that they will encounter PBR contents without a proper fallback, but they will certainly think that you are just too lazy to apply your base color texture as a diffuse texture if you ever recourse to the ”OUTDATED VIEWER” texture...

53 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

rather than realizing this content isn't made for them.

This kind of behaviour is akin to ostracizing people and will just make them feel miserable (especially people who cannot afford updating their potato computer to enjoy your marvelous PBR shinies, instead being reminded by your ugly texture that they are not rich enough for this).

55 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

There was, you saw a generic primitive

By ”possible fallback”, I meant something that would render a mesh, not just a cube. With PBR contents, you *can*, as a creator, keep making stuff that will not render like sh*t during the transition period that will be necessary for everyone to adopt PBR: fallback exists and is quite acceptable.

[Modulated]

15 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I might populate the diffuse slot with a small "OUTDATED VIEWER" texture.

Same as I did back when mesh was rolled out.

Your prerogative to do so, I support that...but you need to label your products CLEARLY as pbr only so people who don't use it don't get duped into buying something they can't use.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

8 hours ago, Modulated said:

Your prerogative to do so, I support that...but you need to label your products CLEARLY as pbr only so people who don't use it don't get duped into buying something they can't use.

What makes you think I wouldn't?

[OptimoMaximo]

14 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

It's LL's fault, not yours or mine; and I did tell them but they did not listen...

Oh, what an unexpected news...

[Extrude Ragu]

On 1/19/2024 at 9:46 AM, Henri Beauchamp said:

might blacklist the UUID of that texture (and any other such textures) in my viewer, so that people who cannot or do not want to use PBR just now (for whatever reason, but the main reason being that it is still very much in beta state, and this until LL fixes PBR properly) will not see it...

Another case of path to hell paved with good intentions - This is a good enough statement from a TPV dev to motivate some creators to upload a new, unique unsupported product texture with each new product to evade such measures, thus creating even more VRAM waste.

23 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

They will perfectly know that they will encounter PBR contents without a proper fallback, but they will certainly think that you are just too lazy to apply your base color texture as a diffuse texture if you ever recourse to the ”OUTDATED VIEWER” texture...

As a creator - This is not an issue of 'laziness' - This is an issue of 'customer experience'.

What you are asking creators to do here is intentionally give a customer a bad product experience that is neither designed for that customers rendering engine or in-fact PBR, just so that your viewer can render 'something'.

You think you are doing everyone a favor, but you are not. If a creator is going to support a customer on old hardware, they'll take the time to bake them a proper diffuse texture so the product can be enjoyed to its best on old hardware. Giving customers on old hardware albedo maps in their diffuse is not something any creator who cares about customer experience wants to do, because it makes the product look like utter crap for the customer making their purchase un-enjoyable. No creator wants to give a customer a product the customer won't enjoy.

23 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

This kind of behaviour is akin to ostracizing people and will just make them feel miserable (especially people who cannot afford updating their potato computer to enjoy your marvelous PBR shinies, instead being reminded by your ugly texture that they are not rich enough for this).

On the contrary, deluding everyone that they can avoid upgrading their PC's forever is simply transferring the expense to creators who care about customer experience.

Creators like me will make it clear at a certain point that their content is PBR only so that customers on old hardware can avoid purchasing what they can't render. I will never intentionally give a customer a product that looks like sh#t for that customer.

Creators that care about customer experience will not let customers see albedo maps in diffuse.

Get this into your head. Small time hobbyist creators often cannot afford to bake textures for two different rendering engines. Wanna know how long I spent rendering textures for my last outfit? 7 days. Sure, there were a lot of parts to bake, tennis racquets, wristbands, shirt, skirt, shoes, accessories, and yeah I made 30 different texture variations but I just like giving my customers customization choices. By the time I'd packed all the textures a whole week had gone past. I took holiday time out of my job to do that. I can't afford to do that twice, and do you really think that's a reasonable ask?

You're asking creators to either give their customers a terrible experience, or take on a financial burden that many creators simply cannot. No, just no.

You talk about potato hardware, but then forget just how much time and electricity it takes to render proper diffuse maps for old computers, and how much complexity it adds to a creators workflow, having to support two different rendering engines. You're not being some hero that's making SL more affordable for everyone, you're actually making SL a more expensive world to create for (and in turn, more expensive to shop in). You're also raising the barrier to entry shutting people out of making money on SecondLife, whilst simultaneously perpetuating the idea to the outside world that Secondlife remains an ugly game that is stuck in the past, ensuring that we never get that new wave of users who spend money in SL and give it life for years to come.

Most budget gaming computers on the market do not cost much at all. The idea that having a >10y old computer is a reserve of the rich is simply not true. I'd encourage people to take a look on eBay - You'd be surprised at just how cheap some of these things go for.

Edited January 20 by Extrude Ragu

[Henri Beauchamp]

55 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Get this into your head.

Gets this into your head:

• Not everyone can afford one month worth of their salary or revenue to buy a new computer and keep playing in SL (and SL cannot afford loosing these residents either since it just barely survives with its current user base).
• Some people (I am in this case), while owning quite capable hardware to render in PBR mode, just find the current state of the PBR renderer unacceptable so much it ruins their SL experience with totally f*cked up legacy contents rendering, ugly waters, etc.

The consequence of the above points is that there will be a transition period, before the renderer is fully fixed (which will hopefully only take a few months: the less, the better), and everyone can use PBR (speaking from experience, with the transition to Windlight (v1.19 to v1.20+) which had a similar impact on ”old” hardware, this will take about 18 months).

As a creator, to adapt yourself to this transition, you could offer your customers a choice (or risk seeing diminishing sales).

As a TPV developer (and eager early adopter, but also someone not making any concession when I see regressions), I already adapted to try and keep as many SLers using SL, by offering them a choice.

This is my last message about this subject in this thread, because we derived a lot from its original topic and I do not want to pollute it more than already done.

Edited January 20 by Henri Beauchamp

[Extrude Ragu]

 

11 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Not everyone can afford one month worth of their salary or revenue to buy a new computer and keep playing in SL (and SL cannot afford loosing these residents either since it just barely survives with its current user base).

Even on minimum wage, It does not cost a months worth of salary to purchase a computer built in the last 10 years. Realistically, about a weeks worth for something entry level, and two for something quite decent.

There are very few people who genuinely couldn't afford to put away $30 at the end of the month which would be enough to have an entry level modern computer by the end of the year. I'm not saying such people don't exist, but such people are the ones who should be getting help from the community, friends and family  anyway because you're basically talking about poverty or severe disability and they are always going to need help.

11 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

The consequence of the above points is that there will be a transition period,

I am not denying there will be a transition period, but your stated aims seems to be to extend the transition period indefinitely and place the burden on creators whilst simultaneously telling people they don't need to upgrade ever.

11 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

As a creator, to adapt yourself to this transition, you could offer your customers a choice (or risk seeing diminishing sales).

And I likely will, during the transition period. But lets not delude ourselves, it is a large burden for a creator, having to offer such a choice. Telling creators to give customers terrible experiences by putting albedo maps in diffuse is also not a reasonable ask. It's not sensible or realistic to expect the transition period to go on forever.  Perpetually extending the transition period is not realistic and will drive up costs for creators to the point that many will simply seek to make money elsewhere.

We should give people realistic expectations.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Even on minimum wage, It does not cost a months worth of salary to purchase a computer built in the last 10 years. Realistically, about a weeks worth for something entry level, and two for something quite decent.

Ah, so the "Arrogant Mercantile Association For Disrespecting Their Customers" want's people to give up heating, lighting, food, utilities, and rent/mortgage payments for JUST two weeks.

<sarcasm mode>

That doesn't sound unreasonable at all.

No, really...

</sarcasm mode>

 

[Kyrah Abattoir]

15 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Another case of path to hell paved with good intentions

Sounds like every argument I ever have with Henri on SL things. I'm sure he has good intentions.

As a creator I want to use the new features available to me to make better things, and not in ten years. I want to challenge my workflow and to be able to make cooler, faster, and better things. The diffuse slot being the same for basic shading and material already created an impossible situation for creators (a good example of a "transition period" that never effectively ended).

The Official client got rid of basic shading entirely as an option, as far as I am concerned that's the "law" now.

This is a good move towards unifying the visual experience for everyone and massively simplifying the rendering pipeline. Shaders are finally the only option.

Sometimes, less is more.

2 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

We should give people realistic expectations.

A realistic expectation would be that a legacy rendering mode is not going to provide the full experience going forward and should be considered unsupported.

Edited January 21 by Kyrah Abattoir

[Extrude Ragu]

1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Ah, so the "Arrogant Mercantile Association For Disrespecting Their Customers" want's people to give up heating, lighting, food, utilities, and rent/mortgage payments for JUST two weeks.

<sarcasm mode>

That doesn't sound unreasonable at all.

No, really...

</sarcasm mode>

 

I think the way in which you choose to interpret my statement says a lot more about you than me.

[Flynn50]

All valid points but at the end of the day Firestorm being one of the bigest viewers should have had this up and running seconds after SL got there PBR viewer running. PBR is coming/here so deal with it. If you don't like tough. 

[Alwin Alcott]

3 hours ago, Flynn50 said:

 PBR is coming/here so deal with it. If you don't like tough. 

It wouldn't be the first exodus we might see when a high expectation new feature ( and the upcomming changes that are feared ) scares away a big chunk of users. Seeing the userbase now, it would be a very bad thing if that happens. 
Seeing your account age, you might be from after those exits, if you'r just posting as alt and are older, you could know.
But i can safely say; if those people stayed, the daily users would be the double of what it's now.

If i need to update my, average 15 to19 year collected inventory and spend agáin a good filled wallet on that ... i'll have to think again .. ( and my inventory is compared to nearly all average users, very small , < 17.500)

Edited March 2 by Alwin Alcott

[Zalificent Corvinus]

11 hours ago, Flynn50 said:

Firestorm being one of the bigest viewers

It's not "one of the biggest", it is the biggest by far, more than 60% of the market.

 

11 hours ago, Flynn50 said:

should have had this up and running seconds after SL got there PBR viewer running

LL generally, as a rule, do NOT allow TPV's to include a new feature until AFTER the official launch in the Official Fail-Viewer.

When LL release it, THEN they send "merge code" for the feature to the TPV devs, who merge that with their TPVs. That usually takes a couple or 4 weeks.

That's assuming the code LL produced, ACTUALLY works properly.

Problem is this.

LL start a project to add a new feature, a project a REAL games dev company would finish in 6 months. LL's attempt ends up as SIX YEARS. Half way through, LL get bored with waiting, and stop the project, and roll it out as a half finished dysfunctional abortion.

Then the TPV's get the code for the half finished dysfunctional abortion, and have to spent 6 to 12 months, finishing off the 3 years worth of fixes that LL didn't bother doing, before rolling it out to the users.

 

11 hours ago, Flynn50 said:

PBR is coming/here so deal with it. If you don't like tough

Wrong attitude, because we have options for giving LL's broken PBR the middle finger, and because if LL p*ss off enough users with their broken PBR, people will leave, the company stops making money and SL closes forever.

Game Over.

Edited March 2 by Zalificent Corvinus

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

It wouldn't be the first exodus we might see when a high expectation new feature ( and the upcomming changes that are feared ) scares away a big chunk of users. 

I'm curious which feature(s) you have in mind here. Because the one that springs to mind for me is Windlight, which was very controversial and widely reviled when introduced because it made everybody's builds and avatars look quite different.

But the platform grew immensely following the Windlight rollout, so maybe we were just made of sterner stock back then.

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I'm curious which feature(s) you have in mind here. Because the one that springs to mind for me is Windlight, which was very controversial and widely reviled when introduced because it made everybody's builds and avatars look quite different.

But the platform grew immensely following the Windlight rollout, so maybe we were just made of sterner stock back then.

I remember people (like my partner at the time) liked Windlight photos so much, they didn't care that it would crash their Second  Life viewer! They would take photo anyway, crash, log back in, and continue with Second Life.  Those were indeed simpler times.

[Aishagain]

All this vitriol!

1) It is generally accepted that LL released the whole PBR program long before it was ready for release.  Quel surprise.

2) Firestorm had a significantly better viewer in Alpha as quickly as a competent amateur could be expected to; a far better effort than the professional product that LL was offering.

3) The current FS beta is vastly superior already to the full release product available from LL.  I've tried the LL release and the FS beta.  The comparison is almost unbelievable.

4) The normal policy of LL of releasing (excuse the pun) unfinished software is well-known to those of us that have infested SL for aeons.

5)  Bickering of the style I have read in the foregoing gets no one anywhere.

The only sane path forward that I see is to make the necessary transition as painless for users as possible and I see scant evidence that one or two creators are prepared  to do that.

Those proud, competent and rather conceited folk risk being seen for what they are - elitist and somewhat intolerant.

[Kathrine Jansma]

5 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

When LL release it, THEN they send "merge code" for the feature to the TPV devs

Not really. LL develops the viewer mostly in the open on github, so they do not send anything to the TPV devs. LL just releases the code/changes there and the TPV devs can take a peek and adapt or copy it according to the license. Its pull not push.

[Flynn50]

On 3/2/2024 at 7:21 PM, Alwin Alcott said:

It wouldn't be the first exodus we might see when a high expectation new feature ( and the upcomming changes that are feared ) scares away a big chunk of users. Seeing the userbase now, it would be a very bad thing if that happens. 
Seeing your account age, you might be from after those exits, if you'r just posting as alt and are older, you could know.
But i can safely say; if those people stayed, the daily users would be the double of what it's now.

If i need to update my, average 15 to19 year collected inventory and spend agáin a good filled wallet on that ... i'll have to think again .. ( and my inventory is compared to nearly all average users, very small , < 17.500)

I am an alt and was around when mesh was released and yeah a few poeple left but show me how many poeple use sculpties now. There would be very few and did you update to mesh I guess you did your still here!! 

[Flynn50]

On 3/2/2024 at 9:26 PM, Zalificent Corvinus said:

It's not "one of the biggest", it is the biggest by far, more than 60% of the market.

 

LL generally, as a rule, do NOT allow TPV's to include a new feature until AFTER the official launch in the Official Fail-Viewer.

When LL release it, THEN they send "merge code" for the feature to the TPV devs, who merge that with their TPVs. That usually takes a couple or 4 weeks.

That's assuming the code LL produced, ACTUALLY works properly.

Problem is this.

LL start a project to add a new feature, a project a REAL games dev company would finish in 6 months. LL's attempt ends up as SIX YEARS. Half way through, LL get bored with waiting, and stop the project, and roll it out as a half finished dysfunctional abortion.

Then the TPV's get the code for the half finished dysfunctional abortion, and have to spent 6 to 12 months, finishing off the 3 years worth of fixes that LL didn't bother doing, before rolling it out to the users.

 

Wrong attitude, because we have options for giving LL's broken PBR the middle finger, and because if LL p*ss off enough users with their broken PBR, people will leave, the company stops making money and SL closes forever.

Game Over.

 

If you have that much market share then I rest my case that FS should have had this up and running. Sitting on hands waiting for PBR to fail isn't the way to a 60% market share. 

Show me where PBR is broken? Works well for me I just don't like ther SL viewer. Good if poeple leave then other may have a change to work eith PBR without people like who don't want change but do message me when you return as I know you will this game has that addiction to it. 

[Wulfie Reanimator]

2 hours ago, Flynn50 said:

Show me where PBR is broken? Works well for me I just don't like ther SL viewer.

Sure, here's a whole page of issues given to FS by LL: https://jira.firestormviewer.org/browse/FIRE-33607

Edited March 6 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Aishagain]

As an addition to all this I have discovered and reported (to both FS and LL) a significant permissions issue wrt editing of textures.

I found that textures with anything other than full perms (in this case the texture was no mod and no transfer) while they appear in the normal inventory window in ALL viewers, are inaccessible in the edit floater texture picker in PBR equipped viewers.

In other words in FS release 6.6.17.70368 the behaviour is as expected as it has been for as long as I have been editing stuff, but in FS Beta 7.1.4.73289 and LL release 7.1.3.7878383867 the texture is unavailable in the edit floater texture picker.  It cannot be dragged onto the face being edited either.

I am pretty sure that is NOT intended behaviour!

ETA:  Apparently this simply cannot be happening  according to LL.  They're in denial it would seem.

I spent 4 hours working on this last night because I didn't believe it either, at first.

FETA: Having had extensive discussion with Dan Linden (who has been very helpful) we are no further with this issue, it seems that I am unique in not being able to apply or even see non full perm textures in Edit!

Dan sent me a no mod no trans texture to try and in the PBR viewers I could not see it in the edit texture picker (yet it was visible in my inventory) and I could see it and apply it in the non-PBR Firestorm, yet he had no issues at all! 

I do NOT understand this.

Edit to add Friday 8th: Just so that anyone similarly affected (I cannot believe there is anything unique about my computer [the viewers are on default settings]) can add their votes or comments.

this is the Bug report to LL:

https://feedback.secondlife.com/bug-reports/p/texture-edit-issue-in-pbr-viewers

and the FS JIRA:

https://jira.firestormviewer.org/plugins/servlet/mobile#issue/FIRE-33743

Edited March 8 by Aishagain
tidying up typos etc

[Aishagain]

Bump.

Sorry, see my post above.

The FS JIRA link is to the Mobile format

https://jira.firestormviewer.org/browse/FIRE-33743

will take you to the JIRA in "normal" browser format

ETA Friday 8th about 11am SLT:  The issue IS server-side.  A No Trans No Mod texture given to me by Dan Linden cannot be seen or applied on a Main Server region but it CAN both be seen and applied on the Magnum sandbox, which according to search is currently running LeTigre RC code.

Edited March 8 by Aishagain
additional info

[AmeliaJ08]

Where do you get the new beta? I was talking in the preview group and they told me a beta is out and I should get a notice when logging in... but I don't.

 

[Qie Niangao]

7 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Where do you get the new beta? I was talking in the preview group and they told me a beta is out and I should get a notice when logging in... but I don't.

I too never get a notice when logging in, but check the group notices.

(I must have nerfed my group settings or something. Somehow I get announcements from other groups but not this one. Ironically, Firestorm often dredges up group announcements that I already saw ages ago in one of my usual viewers.)