Should I put my real-life gender in my woman avatars' profiles?

[Luna Bliss]

11 minutes ago, Orwar said:

11 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

The fetus at 6 weeks is simply undifferentiated with respect to genitalia.

   Even though I am without any real data to back up my claims, I feel reasonably certain there aren't a whole lot of 6 week old foetuses piloting SL avatars.

But Orwar, it is here at this stage when we begin to see evidence of conceptualization of online experiences in various venues as either games or platforms.

[Paul Hexem]

32 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

That is interesting to consider.

The reason it might be different in 2nd life for these men is that there is no gameplay occurring similar to what happens in a game like WOW, where there's a mission to kill or not be killed and there's usually an expectation of gender switching. Instead, what's occurring  in 2nd life is more like a real life scenario (especially at the clubs Katherine is citing these instances from), and so expectations would be similar to real life where they expect a woman to actually be a woman.  Apparently, these upset men don't have an expectation that 2nd life is a game, and experience it more like a platform or dating service.

There's a great point being made here that I suspect won't get enough recognition.

We're tip toeing very close to hypocrisy when we insist that people not treat SL like a game, but then expect them to also not be surprised to discover that many people in this not-a-game are just playing entirely fictional game characters.

I can certainly see someone new to the platform getting mixed messages.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Paul Hexem

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

There's a great point being made here that I suspect won't get enough recognition.

We're tip toeing very close to hypocrisy when we insist that people not to treat SL like a game, but then expect them to also not be surprised to discover that many people in this not-a-game are just playing entirely fictional game characters.

I can certainly see someone new to the platform getting mixed messages.

Oh, yeah? Tell that to anyone with 17 Alts who plays GoH!!

[Persephone Emerald]

26 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

That is interesting to consider.

The reason it might be different in 2nd life for these men is that there is no gameplay occurring similar to what happens in a game like WOW, where there's a mission to kill or not be killed and there's usually an expectation of gender switching. Instead, what's occurring  in 2nd life is more like a real life scenario (especially at the clubs Katherine is citing these instances from), and so expectations would be similar to real life where they expect a woman to actually be a woman.  Apparently, these upset men don't have an expectation that 2nd life is a game, and experience it more like a platform or dating service.

So, if one expects SL to be dating site, it's not, it's a game. If one expects to walk into all the houses, it's not a game, it's a virtual world. If one wants to shoot people, some places are for games, but most of SL is not. And if you want to have virtual sex or have a romantic relationship with someone, it might be a game for you, but it might not be a game for the other person.

Ta da! - Does that make SL more clear?

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

There's a great point being made here that I suspect won't get enough recognition.

We're tip toeing very close to hypocrisy when we insist to people not to treat SL like a game, but then expect them to also not be surprised to discover that many people in this not-a-game are just playing entirely fictional game characters.

I can certainly see someone new to the platform getting mixed messages.

To me it is just more confirmation that there are those who see their avatar as an extension of their RL selves and those who use their avatars as a character they play with no basis of who they are in real. This manifests in different ways and is behind quite a few of the controversies between them.

[Luna Bliss]

15 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

There's a great point being made here that I suspect won't get enough recognition.

We're tip toeing very close to hypocrisy when we insist that people not treat SL like a game, but then expect them to also not be surprised to discover that many people in this not-a-game are just playing entirely fictional game characters.

I can certainly see someone new to the platform getting mixed messages.

You got that right!

I've seen the 'accepted reality' switch in the midst of one thread!

I don't consider it hypocrisy though, as usually any individual person falls to one side or the other (it's a game or it's real life).

For me, I recognize people view 'game or real life'  differently,  and even change according to various contexts, and would educate a newcomer to also do so.   It's complicated!

Edited August 21, 2023 by Luna Bliss

[Paul Hexem]

6 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

So, if one expects SL to be dating site, it's not, it's a game. If one expects to walk into all the houses, it's not a game, it's a virtual world. If one wants to shoot people, some places are for games, but most of SL is not. And if you want to have virtual sex or have a romantic relationship with someone, it might be a game for you, but it might not be a game for the other person.

When you put it like that, "men express shock and anger when they find out the truth" seems a whole lot more reasonable to me.

I bet Beavis would agree with me. The Great Cornholio does not abide liars.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

31 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

That is interesting to consider.

The reason it might be different in 2nd life for these men is that there is no gameplay occurring similar to what happens in a game like WOW, where there's a mission to kill or not be killed and there's usually an expectation of gender switching. Instead, what's occurring  in 2nd life is more like a real life scenario (especially at the clubs Katherine is citing these instances from), and so expectations would be similar to real life where they expect a woman to actually be a woman.  Apparently, these upset men don't have an expectation that 2nd life is a game, and experience it more like a platform or dating service.

True, but games are only one example (and the realm I'm most familiar with).

Others where gender can be unknown and ambiguous - vTubers on YouTube/Twitch, influencers across social media (the female anime avatar meme comes to mind), OnlyFans chatters (tons of sites hiring for this), dating sites (sucks, but it happens), blogging, etc.

It doesn't require quests and combat for people to take on other personas and cross gender lines. It can happen anywhere.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

47 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

That is interesting to consider.

The reason it might be different in 2nd life for these men is that there is no gameplay occurring similar to what happens in a game like WOW, where there's a mission to kill or not be killed and there's usually an expectation of gender switching. Instead, what's occurring  in 2nd life is more like a real life scenario (especially at the clubs Katherine is citing these instances from), and so expectations would be similar to real life where they expect a woman to actually be a woman.  Apparently, these upset men don't have an expectation that 2nd life is a game, and experience it more like a platform or dating service.

Expand  

True, but games are only one example (and the realm I'm most familiar with).

Others where gender can be unknown and ambiguous - vTubers on YouTube/Twitch, influencers across social media (the female anime avatar meme comes to mind), OnlyFans chatters (tons of sites hiring for this), dating sites (sucks, but it happens), blogging, etc.

It doesn't require quests and combat for people to take on other personas and cross gender lines. It can happen anywhere.

Ahhh...I don't participate in any of that, or even know what some of it is.

What is your theory as to why these upset men are having trouble keeping the perspective  in 2nd life that the presented gender might not be the 1st life gender?

[Paul Hexem]

3 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

True, but games are only one example (and the realm I'm most familiar with).

Others where gender can be unknown and ambiguous - vTubers on YouTube/Twitch, influencers across social media (the female anime avatar meme comes to mind), OnlyFans chatters (tons of sites hiring for this), dating sites (sucks, but it happens), blogging, etc.

It doesn't require quests and combat for people to take on other personas and cross gender lines. It can happen anywhere.

It's worth noting that in all those examples, you're treated very very negatively if you're caught doing it. Much more so than here in SL.

[Persephone Emerald]

8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

What is your theory as to why these upset men are having trouble keeping the perspective  in 2nd life that the presented gender might not be the 1st life gender?

Maybe they're just stupid?

[QuietEventide]

King Solomon solution:
Cut SL down the middle.

1) Those who see SL as an extension of their RL selves/genders go to the "RL=SL" regions.
2) Those who don't care about real life genders go to the "RL≠SL" regions.

And never the two shall meet (like wives and girlfriends).
And The Great Calm descended upon Second Life.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Ahhh...I don't participate in any of that, or even know what some of it is.

What is your theory as to why these upset men are having trouble keeping the perspective  in 2nd life that the presented gender might not be the 1st life gender?

Who knows. Maybe they feel entitled to be presented with only real females!111oneone.

 

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

It's worth noting that in all those examples, you're treated very very negatively if you're caught doing it. Much more so than here in SL.

Not all of that is done with intent to deceive. Many influencers and bloggers feel the need to protect themselves and personal real life information (for obvious reasons), so they create entire online personas and pen names. Everyone knows vTubers aren't actually bouncing anime women with rosy cheeks behind the scenes and could be any number of things. RL vloggers and influencers on Instagram are probably well aware of the risks of being fully public, but I'm sure dat sponsorship money factors in to their decisions to be a bit more real than others choose to be. 

OnlyFans chatters are hired by professional agencies and creators for real wages. That IS deceptive, but you'd have to be nutty to believe a single woman who spends hours on camera is responding to 8343842893492384 personal messages a day, so that's on them.

Second Life, on the other hand, literally has "Second Life" in the title. Ya can't be that surprised when a guy runs by as a female furry rabbit or something. If someone's going to use the place as a dating site, they'd do best to keep in mind that some (many?) people are just here messing around doing whatever.

[Paul Hexem]

9 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Ya can't be that surprised when a guy runs by as a female furry rabbit or something. If someone's going to use the place as a dating site, they'd do best to keep in mind that some (many?) people are just here messing around doing whatever.

Sure, but now we're back to the point that @Luna Bliss made.

I'm totally comfortable with explaining to new users that SL is not a dating site, it's just a game with people playing game characters. Think that would go over well?

[Istelathis]

I would strongly urge straight bio-men and bio-women to consider the platform they are using, when looking for real life relationships.  When you see all of those rainbow flags hanging around in this virtual environment, see all of the places with an about summary declaring their support for LGBT, they need to realize this might be a challenge for them.  

@Gopi Passiflora you are on a LGBT friendly platform, don't sweat it.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

33 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Sure, but now we're back to the point that @Luna Bliss made.

I'm totally comfortable with explaining to new users that SL is not a dating site, it's just a game with people playing game characters. Think that would go over well?

I agree, but that's actually what a lot of people think it is outside of SL (on Discord, Reddit, YouTube, etc.).

When I first joined here in 2005, it was known more as a creative/builder platform. Or at least, that's how I heard it being referred to. These days - a lot call it a game, some say a virtual world, a metaverse, an MMO, many call users "players," some compare it to "an online Sims game," and a bunch of other less-flattering things I can't post.

There's really no one standard term that everyone uses. It's all over the map. "Game" does seem a bit more common than the rest, however. 

Edit: I'd also love to know what about the astronaut and furry mage on the homepage screams "dating site" to prospective newbies. SL is a lot of different things, really.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Ayashe Ninetails
Added stuffs

[QuietEventide]

17 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

I'm totally comfortable with explaining to new users that SL is not a dating site, it's just a game with people playing game characters. Think that would go over well?

It can be both of those things, plus thousands more.

[Paul Hexem]

9 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I would strongly urge straight bio-men and bio-women to consider the platform they are using, when looking for real life relationships.  When you see all of those rainbow flags hanging around in this virtual environment, see all of the places with an about summary declaring their support for LGBT, they need to realize this might be a challenge for them.

Maybe it's me, but I struggle to understand why supporting LGBT should also make a challenge for straight relationships- assuming everyone's being honest.

What are you implying, exactly?

[Istelathis]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

What are you implying, exactly?

It is foolish to assume the gender of anyone based upon their avatar, and to make demands that they inform everyone of their gender in their profile.

[Paul Hexem]

3 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

It is foolish to assume the gender of anyone based upon their avatar, and to make demands that they inform everyone of their gender in their profile.

I'm still not grasping the link between that and there being a challenge for straight people specifically. False representation in a relationship should be a problem for everyone, I'd think.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

False representation in a relationship

Assuming one's "relationship" is "real" and based on anything "real-life" in Second Life would seem to be a problem.  A lot of assumptions are involved. Assuming, of course, that it's even a "relationship" at all.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Persephone Emerald]

It's obviously not just straight cis people who could be deceived about the RL gender of people they meet in SL. Lesbian sims are notorious for RL men trying to pass as lesbian women. 

I don't think it's as much of a problem in gay male sims, but others would have a better perspective on this than I do.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Persephone Emerald

[Paul Hexem]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Assuming one's "relationship" is "real" and based on anything "real-life" in Second Life would seem to be a problem.  A lot of assumptions are involved. Assuming, of course, that it's even a "relationship" at all.

The post I was replying to specified real life relationships being a challenge for bio men and bio women but presumably not for LGBT people, which is why I thought it was weird.

I'm just a straight white guy so maybe it's some repressed ism or phobia or privilege showing, but I'm failing to understand why the distinction was made.

[Istelathis]

15 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

I'm still not grasping the link between that and there being a challenge for straight people specifically.

Fair enough, anyone really then.  I mentioned straight people, because it is often they of who I read from that make a bigger deal out of it than anyone else, at least in my experience.  But I do stand corrected, it could be extended to anyone really, it is just foolish to assume the gender of anyone on this platform, and make demands that they put it in their profile.  

Edit:
My own anecdotal experience hardly represents the reality though, so I do apologize.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Istelathis

[Scylla Rhiadra]

One of the assumptions being made here is that "representing who one is" in RL means replicating biological sex.

Someone who is AMAB in RL, and retains the physical sexual characteristics of a male of the species may, in fact, be expressing a truth about themselves if they represent as a biological woman in SL. That's most obviously true of those who are trans, but I think it's likely true of cis people who represent in SL as a different biological sex as well: a man or woman who is representing here as the opposite sex may well -- in fact, I'd argue almost certainly is -- articulating something very real about themselves through that representation even if they are cishet.

I'm sure there are exceptions (e.g., straight RL men who enjoy lesbian porn), but I work under the assumption that everyone here is expressing something authentic about themselves in SL, if only because they are doing so because there is something about that representation that appeals to them at some level or another.

I think all of this talk about "deception" is not merely a red herring, but actually somewhat worrisome. If you need to know that the SL woman you're having sex with is possesses female genitalia in RL, then you simply have a particular requirement or preference in your partners (like "I only like red heads" or "my partners need to be literate and articulate"). And yes, you should articulate that, and even require that of potential partners. And they should equally have the right to say "Sorry, I'm not going to prove that" without being crapped on for declining.

People represent as they do here for reasons that need have nothing to do with "deception." We need to accept that everyone here is being authentic to who they are in some way or another. Someone whose approach to SL doesn't mesh with yours isn't be "deceptive" -- they're just doing their own thing, as they have every right to.