Ban lines - a proposal

[Fionalein]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

It's called the OSgrid.   I hear it's awesome and hardly any people!   

And less sim crossing due to megasims, purrfect for drivers and pilots.

[BillFletcher]

12 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

how you DESERVE to be allowed to park your aircraft in peoples Living Rooms whenever you want.

Pretty sure no one here has said they deserve to do that, Actually none of us deserve anything. Linden Labs created Second Life and we are all here subject to whatever they want to do. That does not mean that individuals cannot express opinions on what would make SL a better experience for everyone, You say you want your limited time in SL to go smoothly and everyone respects that, but what about the guy who uses his limited time in SL to fly and airplane and his experience is messed up because he inadvertently bumped into your ban lines above your house. You would not be disturbed at all if he was able to just fly over your house, the same way a RL pilot can fly over your RL home. There should be a way to insure you can be secure in your home without potentially ruining some innocent persons day.

Edited August 11, 2023 by BillFletcher

[Rowan Amore]

Actually, it's the perfect solution for both sides of the debate.  Those who want to completely lock down their land, it's cheap and they have complete autonomy.  For.those who want to travel vast areas in their planes, trains and cars, it's cheap and they have complete autonomy.  😁

[Gabriele Graves]

31 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Actually, it's the perfect solution for both sides of the debate.  Those who want to completely lock down their land, it's cheap and they have complete autonomy.  For.those who want to travel vast areas in their planes, trains and cars, it's cheap and they have complete autonomy.  😁

It also perfect for those who don't want to see ban lines too, just sayin'

Edit: You probably meant that as well but when I read it I was thinking you meant about the seamless region crossings.  I haven't had my first coffee yet.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[PheebyKatz]

41 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Actually, it's the perfect solution for both sides of the debate.  Those who want to completely lock down their land, it's cheap and they have complete autonomy.  For.those who want to travel vast areas in their planes, trains and cars, it's cheap and they have complete autonomy.  😁

I agree with this. If hell is other people, one can always OSGrid it.

Now to figure out how to solve the problem of people who want to do SL and flipflop between being disappointed that there's never anyone around, and wishing that every awesome build everywhere inworld was abandoned so they can explore it all alone, and probably naked.

I would say give users the godmode ability to turn off knowledge of any other users' presences (or even existence), and to go unseen themselves amongst crowds of users at various popular venues even when everyone is visible to themselves, but then we might all be a little too close to Lindenhood for security, lol.

That kinda stuff could really screw with people's paranoia, too.

Edited August 12, 2023 by PheebyKatz
LOL, it's "popular", not "pupular"

[Casidy Silvercloud]

2 hours ago, animats said:

If you find one, bug LL into putting up guard rails or traffic cones or something by submitting a support ticket

I think that might actually be what this little triangle is supposed to be, a fix to let people cross that 3 sim crossing. It works as intended, as long as you're in that little jagged area. But if you're even the teeniest bit outside of it, BAM, lmao. It's quite funny actually. I lost a plane there once that just kept right on going without me. I didn't pay attention to where it got returned from, but it took off like a bat out of hell. You have to go a bit slow, or at least I do, and doing it in aircraft can be a bit more tricky, but doable now that I know it's there. It'll probably still catch me now and then, it's a stubborn little beast, but I'm way more stubborn. Even if it's annoying, I'll just laugh and try again.

[Gabriele Graves]

Look at what happens when we stray from the topic.  It's lions and tigers and bears. Oh My!

[Aethelwine]

6 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

In Firestrom, you can see parcels with banlines in pink if you turn on "Show ->Property Lines" after right clicking the mini-map.

However, the mini-map does not show the banlined parcel as pink until you also see the yellow banlines inworld. This occurs when you are approximately 8 meters from the parcel border. That's right, EIGHT meters. The video below demonstrates.

I think what you are seeing there is that you can't see banlines on adjacent regions until you cross into them. There is very little forewarning, but I think it is a bit more than 8m. Those banline detector huds do seem to work for the region you are in, but I don't find them useful myself as the warnings they give are still too slow, it is screen clutter and they are more scripts being carried and used when you want to be limiting scripts to improve region handover performance. 

You made an earlier suggestion about creating the time delay on the eject script lsl function of 15 seconds, which on the face of it sounds good and a solution to the orb problem. The counter argument to that though is that when someone is using the orb to eject a griefer from an event, is the 15 seconds delay then really acceptable? They can do alot in those 15 seconds especially if they are already prepared and active rezzing griefer objects.  

[Persephone Emerald]

6 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

In Firestrom, you can see parcels with banlines in pink if you turn on "Show ->Property Lines" after right clicking the mini-map.

However, the mini-map does not show the banlined parcel as pink until you also see the yellow banlines inworld. This occurs when you are approximately 8 meters from the parcel border. That's right, EIGHT meters. The video below demonstrates.

^ This is a great demonstration of the problem for people sailing or flying.  Maybe ban lines should show up sooner? Would 12 meters be enough space?, 16m?, 20 m?

Edited August 12, 2023 by Persephone Emerald

[Gabriele Graves]

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

^ This is a great demonstration of the problem for people sailing or flying.  Maybe ban lines should show up sooner. Would 12 meters be enough space, 16m?, 20 m?

When you enter the region would be my vote.

[Persephone Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

I think what you are seeing there is that you can't see banlines on adjacent regions until you cross into them. There is very little forewarning, but I think it is a bit more than 8m. Those banline detector huds do seem to work for the region you are in, but I don't find them useful myself as the warnings they give are still too slow, it is screen clutter and they are more scripts being carried and used when you want to be limiting scripts to improve region handover performance. 

You made an earlier suggestion about creating the time delay on the eject script lsl function of 15 seconds, which on the face of it sounds good and a solution to the orb problem. The counter argument to that though is that when someone is using the orb to eject a griefer from an event, is the 15 seconds delay then really acceptable? They can do alot in those 15 seconds especially if they are already prepared and active rezzing griefer objects.  

Would a 10 second delay be enough for most people to get out of a parcel without allowing most griefers enough time to do anything griefy?

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

The counter argument to that though is that when someone is using the orb to eject a griefer from an event, is the 15 seconds delay then really acceptable? They can do alot in those 15 seconds especially if they are already prepared and active rezzing griefer objects.  

But how prevalent is griefing really these days? Seem to hear a lot less of it nowadays then say 10 years ago.

[Casidy Silvercloud]

I just wanted to say, in case I didn't make it clear, I don't mind banlines or security devices, at all.  I think everyone should have whatever level of privacy they can get that they desire. I do wish some people didn't do the zero second warning, only because things happen and people can easily accidentally cross your borders without trying to. I think those zero second warnings are a lot fewer now than they once were. But if people think they need them, then they do. 

My only  real complaint at all is that I can't always tell, sometimes until it's too late, where the security, including banlines, actually is. If it were easier for me to tell, it would be easier for me to nearly never encroach on others' land. Making it easier to see is a responsibility left up to the ones that run the place, the lab, though, not residents.  Just because I like wandering definitely doesn't mean I should be free to roam the grid wherever and whenever. I don't pay for others' land, they do and they make the rules, and I do my best to respect others' rules. 

That said, if I accidentally end up in your yard because a sim crossing or ill-tempered vehicle decides to go homicidal on me and thrust my lifeless body through time and space, accept my sincerest, probably, apologies now. Feel free to boot my behind home, to the cornfield or wherever else you wish. I certainly won't take offense, even if it's intended, because that poo is funny as hell. I'll probably be too busy laughing at myself to leave of my own accord anyway. 

[Aethelwine]

8 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

^ This is a great demonstration of the problem for people sailing or flying.  Maybe ban lines should show up sooner? Would 12 meters be enough space?, 16m?, 20 m?

I would like to see banlines on adjacent regions, 100m might be sufficient, but I don't see the harm in that. And then on the viewers there would be a slider in preferences for people to tune it down to zero if that is their preference.

They can already be turned off, so not entirely clear why anyone would want to limit the distance we can see them further. The problem for vehicles is that they aren't seen until it is often too late.

All that said I am not entirely clear what exactly the different banline settings actually do. Sometimes you get ejected and your boat remains trapped in the banline, you can edit boat out sit on it and continue. Other times I have bounced up the banline and then across the top in the vehicle before continuing on my way. Other times you just get stuck in the banline, you can edit out but the vehicle is broken and a stand and resit still leaves it non-functional. In some of those cases it might be a combination of banline and orb, or no scripts on the parcel? 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Aethelwine

[PheebyKatz]

I think if I wanted a mainland parcel, without all of what comes with living on the mainland, I'd just make sure nobody but me could rezz anything or run anything, or do anything fun, have nothing on the ground at all, just a space to pass through, and just make a nice little oasis for myself at about 4500 meters up, that fried anyone who got too close, like a bug light.

And would only exist when I was home.

To anyone on the ground or flying over, it'd just be another empty parcel. No need for banlines or orbs or anything, because all they'd be doing is caroming across it in their go-kart or hovercraft, anyway.

And if anyone took the trouble to find my little hangout while I was home and bother me, then nobody could really fault me if I used them as a test subject for whatever evil project I was working on at the time.

Edited August 12, 2023 by PheebyKatz

[Aethelwine]

4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

But how prevalent is griefing really these days? Seem to hear a lot less of it nowadays then say 10 years ago.

I think only Linden Lab could say for sure. But for what it is worth my perception accords with yours. I have not seen any mainland\private estates attached to mainland griefing I think in the last 3 years.

[Persephone Emerald]

My take on this is that ban lines serve a sometimes necessary purpose and ejection serves a sometimes necessary purpose. The questions are then:

When should ban lines show up? 

How long of a delay is necessary before ejection? and

Is it necessary to Send Home an avatar, when a simple ejection should be sufficient?

Also, can we get objects to bounce off ban lines instead of getting stuck in them?

 - Btw, you can also put an invisible box over your parcel to keep people out, but this wouldn't prevent cam-sitting.

[Gabriele Graves]

11 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Would a 10 second delay be enough for most people to get out of a parcel without allowing most griefers enough time to do anything griefy?

Hypothetically, I think if LL were to go with a 15 second minimum on eject/ban by script then the viewer tools should still operate instantly.  That would mean that griefers could be dealt with swiftly when you are around and your normal security system becomes compliant with the new rules.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, BillFletcher said:

Pretty sure no one here has said they deserve to do that, Actually none of us deserve anything. Linden Labs created Second Life and we are all here subject to whatever they want to do. That does not mean that individuals cannot express opinions on what would make SL a better experience for everyone, You say you want your limited time in SL to go smoothly and everyone respects that, but what about the guy who uses his limited time in SL to fly and airplane and his experience is messed up because he inadvertently bumped into your ban lines above your house. You would not be disturbed at all if he was able to just fly over your house, the same way a RL pilot can fly over your RL home. There should be a way to insure you can be secure in your home without potentially ruining some innocent persons day.

Strange but true...

 

One of my former SL housemates, who has since quit SL altogether, actually met your previous Forum incarnation in world.

They were in a discussion face to face, with some clueless overentitled idiot, who had quit SL because "It's doomed I will never return!" over a decade earlier, and who had just come back because of Covid,.

This idiot, had unilaterally decided that he should deface SEVEN regions with an unwanted unneeded, and unused piece of Vehicle Vagrant Induced Planning Blight, all of it made of badly edited prim crap, much of it full bright.

So there they were standing in world discussing this, when YOU walked up, ignored my housemate, and tried chatting up the guy.

 

And then you said something that struck my housemate to the extend that she insisted on telling me all about it the next time I saw her.

 

"Why are there abandoned parcels with banlines?"

The guy told you they were not abandoned, my housemate told you they were not abandoned.

"But they are obviously abandoned, there are no houses on them"

both of the people you had interuppted then explained the concept of skyboxes to you.

"why do they need banlines if they are in the sky?"

 

Pay attention. Ban lines do more than just stop idiots walking into your parcel at ground level, they mark the parcel in red on the better viewers so you KNOW you are not welcome there BEFORE you try to trespass.

Not only that, but here's the often overlooked part. If you try to teleport into a banlined parcel with a LM or via an slurl or via the world map, you get auto bounced to a spot outside the parcel.

In addition, group only banlines are the easiest and LEAST anti social of the required options of the Official LL "Behind Closed Doors" Policy, published by Official LL Employees, on the Official LL Wiki.

 

So, your ignorant overentitlement not withstanding parcel owners can, sometimes should, and sometimes MUST have banlines, and orbs to keep casual nomadic home invaders out because LL REQUIRE THEM TO DO SO.

 

Just learn to deal with it and move on.

[Gabriele Graves]

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Is it necessary to Send Home an avatar, when a simple ejection should be sufficient?

In my opinion, only from private regions, otherwise it causes more harm than good.  It would be nice if that were disabled for mainland.

[Gabriele Graves]

8 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

I think only Linden Lab could say for sure. But for what it is worth my perception accords with yours. I have not seen any mainland\private estates attached to mainland griefing I think in the last 3 years.

I'm afraid I have.  There were replicated huge objects across a few regions I found a few months ago.  They were there for a few days after I AR'd them and then they were gone.

[Orwar]

7 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

^ This is a great demonstration of the problem for people sailing or flying.  Maybe ban lines should show up sooner? Would 12 meters be enough space?, 16m?, 20 m?

   Depends on the speed you're travelling at, your reaction time, and how fast you can turn. 20 metres is not a lot, if you're going at 30 km/h (about 18 mp/h for ye stone age folks) you'd have 2.4 seconds to notice and break and/or turn. And that's assuming you're moving at the legal limit of a tractor, and that the lines show up the instant you're within 20 metres and never fails to do so.

[Rowan Amore]

If it were.possible or feasible, LL should redo the roads on mainland.  The roads on Horizons and to some degree, in Belli, are good examples.  In Horizons, there is the road, a sidewalk AND an area of land before you even get to my parcel.  It won't effect fliers but those using ground vehicles would have a larger buffer zone between the roadway and anyone's banlines.  I can drive easily around Horizons even though my driving skills suck.  It's much more difficult on regular mainland to drive between the lines.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

5 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

How long of a delay is necessary before ejection? and

Is it necessary to Send Home an avatar, when a simple ejection should be sufficient?

Zero seconds, and yes TP home is essential, 

First of all, eject just pushes the attacker off the parcel, with a "let them grief me for a while" Fail orb, that means they can walk right back in and carry on regardless, Punting them back to their den of iniquity helps prevent that.

Secondly, if you had ever been an admin on a region with morre than one parcel set to the same land group, you'd know that doing an eject, just kicks them off the parcel, then you eject and ban from each of the other parcels in turn, which requires that you visit each parcel in turn, and then when you eject and ban from the last parcel, the attacker has NOWHERE to be ejected to, and ends up in some weird zero width limbo, on the edge of a parcel, where they can slide back and forth along the line, and carry on griefing, but...

YOU CANNOT eject and ban them further because technically, they are no longer on land you have boot powers for. Stuck, untill they choose to leave, attacking your land/visitors, and you cant do a damn thing till a smarter admin arrives and says "Doh, you should have used 'punt kick the trash back to their dumpster'"

 

[Aethelwine]

9 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Hypothetically, I think if LL were to go with a 15 second minimum on eject/ban by script then the viewer tools should still operate instantly.  That would mean that griefers could be dealt with swiftly when you are around and your normal security system becomes compliant with the new rules.

So long as your club had the security rights assigned by group role rather than set as a function in their orb assigned to them.

I can't think of a reason why assigning security roles in the orb and not in group settings would be a thing, but it might be. I remember I had or thought I had a reason to do it that way 10 or so years ago when I ran a biker region.