LaraX?

[Zalificent Corvinus]

5 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I can't imagine why it is so bad to get a free update. This sounds like Maitreya ripped you off, instead of giving you more. For free!

Giving me something I did not ask for, do not want, and cannot use, while deliberately killing off all new content for what I actually paid for, isn't the sort of "free gift" I appreciate.

Then you get comments like "Well, it might render lingerie, stockings, tight well fitting clothing, anything see thru or skimpy totally useless, but my collection of Imam approved ankle length hessian body tents will work just fine so yay for updates", that just rub salt in the wounds.

You can't just "use some alpha cuts" to hide broken fit on fishnet stockings, or narrow shoulder straps, or lace gloves, this isn't a gift, it's a curse.

 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

19 minutes ago, Orwar said:

Neither Neph nor Mina would look themselves in Reborn

Yeah, kind of hard to imagine Neph in a Reborn.

[Ze Helix]

The whales who are really dropping money on clothes barely wear stuff from last month let alone years old content. Its a constant cycle of new and fresh. Compatibility with old items is great but moving away from that isn't going to hurt the brand. Releasing a separate body into the saturated market would have been a mistake. Of course time will tell, but in my opinion Maitreya is doing this in the best way possible for retention and new user uptake too. 

[Kristy Aurelia]

32 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Actually, they are updating the existing Lara 5.3 as well as adding the Lara X - no sure with what yet, perhaps the petite and flat options.

Updating 5.3 might be for PBR support?

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 minute ago, Ze Helix said:

The whales who are really dropping money on clothes barely wear stuff from last month let alone years old content. Its a constant cycle of new and fresh. Compatibility with old items is great but moving away from that isn't going to hurt the brand. Releasing a separate body into the saturated market would have been a mistake. Of course time will tell, but in my opinion Maitreya is doing this in the best way possible for retention and new user uptake too. 

That's pretty much what Over-Priced-Feet Inc said when they released "ReSux" and told their entire userbase "All your old clothing is fubared, convert or die, no more uupdates and support for the version that works."

 

6 Months later they had dropped from one of the top 3 selling bodies to "can't cling to 20th place", and now they are gone.

 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

Just now, Kplh said:

Updating 5.3 might be for PBR support?

Do you even know what a "PBR update" entails?

A new applier script to apply PBR channels that don't exist yet, with script commands that don't exist yet, making a couple of PBR channel maps to put in the HUD they cant script yet as the lsl commands don't exist yet.

No, it's not a PBR update.

[Fionalein]

9 minutes ago, Ze Helix said:

The whales who are really dropping money on clothes barely wear stuff from last month let alone years old content. Its a constant cycle of new and fresh. Compatibility with old items is great but moving away from that isn't going to hurt the brand. Releasing a separate body into the saturated market would have been a mistake. Of course time will tell, but in my opinion Maitreya is doing this in the best way possible for retention and new user uptake too. 

Whales have not been Maitreya's target customers for years now. It was the "I'll buy one system that's future stable" folks. Whales come and go, they follow the tides. Maitreya is trying a gamble now - but I'm not sure they still have what it takes to survive in the market for fad bodies that will be forgotten about in a few years.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Fionalein

[Gabriele Graves]

9 minutes ago, Ze Helix said:

The whales who are really dropping money on clothes barely wear stuff from last month let alone years old content. Its a constant cycle of new and fresh. Compatibility with old items is great but moving away from that isn't going to hurt the brand. Releasing a separate body into the saturated market would have been a mistake. Of course time will tell, but in my opinion Maitreya is doing this in the best way possible for retention and new user uptake too. 

If this was true then all those newer bodies that whales bought would have killed support for Lara long ago due to much more sales.  Lara is still 35%-ish of the market with nobody else close.

It's not wise to upset loyal customers, period.  It's never a good move to break compatibility for an existing body, ever.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[Kristy Aurelia]

Just now, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Do you even know what a "PBR update" entails?

A new applier script to apply PBR channels that don't exist yet, with script commands that don't exist yet, making a couple of PBR channel maps to put in the HUD they cant script yet as the lsl commands don't exist yet.

No, it's not a PBR update.

I do know very well what it entails, and they do exist, you just need to go to the special sandbox regions on the main grid, or to the test grid where it has been available for a very long time. So you can have perfectly working scripts all ready to go.

And for all we know, the Lara X release date might be after PBR goes live when all of this is actually avaialble grid wide.

[Fionalein]

1 minute ago, Kplh said:

And for all we know, the Lara X release date might be after PBR goes live when all of this is actually avaialble grid wide.

Yeah sure, just like back when LL changed the UUIDs for BoM last minute before release and every prematurely released BoM applier had to be redone.

[Gabriele Graves]

17 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Yeah sure, just like back when LL changed the UUIDs for BoM last minute before release and every prematurely released BoM applier had to be redone.

That unfortunately did catch out Lelutka on their Origins heads (before Evo and before the heads at the time were renamed as Origins).  The v3.2 update was released and then LL did the UUID change and v3.3 had to follow soon after.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[AmeliaJ08]

3 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Basically, weighting is how the mesh bends when your bones move, swing your leg forward, how does the shape of your hip/thigh area change.

 

Practical meaning...

 

All your clothing is weighted the old way, the body is weighted the new way, so the clothing will no longer move the same way as your body, Entire wardrobe rendered broken and useless, wait 5 years to rebuy/redeliver (assuming it ever gets updated at all) everything, or decide to stop shopping in disgust.

?

It sounds like they're including Lara 5.3 in the update, they've made repeated mention of 'seamless' switching between Lara 5.3 and Lara X. Given how little actually changes between the two I'd guess that the way that will be achieved is having both bodies in one.

 

[AmeliaJ08]

3 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

It's not appreciated by me that's for damn sure, the "subtle changes" are guuaranteed to break about 70% of my Lara fitted inventory.

Not appreciated at all, this is an "Over-Priced-Feet Inc F you customers your working body wont be supported any more, welcome to the noting  fits body you never asked for" move.

Yuup, new rigging, new weighting, different damn basic mesh shape, most things in my inv totally broken, and the butt physics? Since the clothes are not butt jiggle rigged, turning on butt jiggle in the body means youur ass will shake it's self right through your clothing.

 

Epic Effing Disaster.

Every change you've mentioned BREAKS support for existing Lara fit itemss, there is NO effort here to maintain support. None.

 

The LaraX F**kup-date destroys any Brand Loyalty I might have, forever.

What is broken? if you want to wear 5.3 clothes then press 5.3 mode (ideally) or wear the 5.3 body...

[Zalificent Corvinus]

8 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

What is broken? if you want to wear 5.3 clothes then press 5.3 mode (ideally) or wear the 5.3 body...

Assuming they do the two bodies in one Lara 5.4 mode/Not-Lara 5.4 mode thing, then Lara5.4 will have the new rigging, same as Laura, and that breaks a load of clothing, that is rigged for Lara 5.3 not Laura 5.4

 

And "just use the old no longer supported version" is the same crap Over-Priced-Feet Inc used when they committed commercial suicide by screwing over their userbase.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Zalificent Corvinus

[AmeliaJ08]

13 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Assuming they do the two bodies in one Lara 5.4 mode/Not-Lara 5.4 mode thing, then Lara5.4 will have the new rigging, same as Laura, and that breaks a load of clothing, that is rigged for Lara 5.3 not Laura 5.4

 

And "just use the old no longer supported version" is the same crap Over-Priced-Feet Inc used when they committed commercial suicide by screwing over their userbase.

We're not even sure as to the extent of the weighting changes they're making, I'd give them a chance before assuming they'd make a critical blunder like breaking 5.3 clothes compatibility (in some sort of 5.3 compatibility mode) with their changes.

I don't think they will but lets say they do for some stupid reason, that's a problem that would be solved by wearing 5.3. It was always going to be dropped one way or another, I was assuming another incremental minor update.

I agree updates can sometimes be annoying, I can't remember when Lara changed the feet but I have some shoes that were never updated and they don't fit 5.3 properly.

[AmeliaJ08]

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I haven't read that the bodies will be combined like that.  I think they are going to be separates still.

We're inferring it from Maitreya mentioning "seamless" switching.

[AmeliaJ08]

11 hours ago, Orwar said:

   Seems weird if they make Petite its own body (presumably to save on resources?) and then make it a double-body for 5.3/5.X fit .. At this stage I'm still slightly hopeful, but also internally panicking about what option there'd be. Neither Neph nor Mina would look themselves in Reborn (and I wouldn't wear Legacy if I was paid to!). 

To be honest the way they did Petite/Flat was always a little jank and seeing them integrated into the body is a good thing imo. It's not a huge deal but having to use an attachment point for the Petite/Flat add-on was an issue that is better solved by just integrating the mesh and including a toggle button like Rebirth.

That said: people did pay for the add-on, now it's being rolled into the body everyone gets for free. That's the way it goes though, you pay to play.

I'd rather just see it included by default and hopefully see more Petite sizing than the alternative although things have been a lot better this past year when it comes to Petite clothes being more available.

 

edit: not working this way, if you owned Petite/Flat you will receive a specific Lara X Petite/Flat with the update. Like most of my speculation in this thread ignore me!

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by AmeliaJ08

[Gabriele Graves]

6 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

We're inferring it from Maitreya mentioning "seamless" switching.

On further reflection, I don't think this can work.  In the words of Maitreya's CSR, you cannot rig the same mesh for two different bodies.

I think it's marketing speak.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[Gabriele Graves]

We already have v5.3 - we always had the option to use that instead of the new body.  Putting that in the new box adds nothing by itself.  So whatever upgrade there is to that is to keep it current in my opinion.

[Kristy Aurelia]

Releasing a new body is pretty much the most difficult thing to do in SL anyway - there is no winning scenario:

1. If you do nothing, based on my experience, I have been seeing more and more Legacy/Reborn exclusives in events (or maybe just the type of clothes I like are swapping over... I might be biased). If creators continue swapping over to different body, the users will do so as well eventually, and the body will be abandoned.

2. If you release a completely brand-new body, you have to compete with existing bodies, all existing content for that body and try to attract creators willing to put extra effort for a body that might not become popular to be worth it. Also, bodies tend to be expensive, so users won't want to risk jumping onto a new body if it does not have any ground breaking features.

2.1 If you release a new body after Scenario #1 has happened, you don't have to compete with your old body, but, by that point, the other bodies will have become a lot more established.

3. If you do a minor update that is fully backwards compatible, you can't really change anything significant to address any of the issues. And that may lead you to Scenario #1

So, what is there left to do?

To me it seems like the current case of releasing a free update that contains a second body is a compromise - it gives a chance to fix issues creators are having, which might lure them back in and avoid Scenario #1. By not making a completely breaking change, you encourage people to try it out, as at least some part of their current wardrobe will still work. By giving it out for free, you don't ask current user base to gamble their money on a body that may or may not become popular. Also, creators know that there is a large userbase that do have that body, so they might be more willing to try it out and make some clothes for it.

If this scenario doesn't work out, people will continue using their current stuff and nothing will change. Sure, there will be wasted effort on making that body, and for some creators that do make stuff for it. Just like with any new body release.

If it does work out, it will be the same result as if any other brand released a brand-new body that people liked, they will migrate over and abandon their old collection of clothes, maybe not all of it, depending on how different the rigging actually ends up being. I imagine there will be some creators who will be making a Lara and Lara X versions, just like they do with Lara & Petite versions.

Anyway, I remain cautiously optimistic.

 

[Gabriele Graves]

There's no doubt about it, the mesh body/clothing market is a crapshoot.

It's quite possible that we have reached a no-win scenario for anyone releasing either a new body or a significant body update.  I wouldn't be at all surprised.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[Gabriele Graves]

18 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

To be honest the way they did Petite/Flat was always a little jank.

I agree and right-clicking the body always showed the original breasts when using them and that reason is exactly why I wouldn't want them integrated particularly because the jank will be there for everyone instead of just petite/flat users.  It's unavoidable for feet because there really aren't better options but It would have been better to have whole bodies for each option.  However, that's a lot of work too and so impractical also.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[Claireschen Hesten]

2 hours ago, Ze Helix said:

I expect creators will probably just stop rigging for the old Lara.

Creators are already dropping Lara, as popular as it still is when I was doing my weekend sales shopping yesterday I noticed everything I was interested in didn't include Lara. Saved me a lot of money. It was mostly Lagacy/Reborn, Lagacy is a nonstarter for me and I'd be very reluctant to go Reborn as I'm not overly keen on the shape 

[Fionalein]

6 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

It's quite possible that we have reached a no-win scenario for anyone releasing either a new body or a significant body update.  I wouldn't be at all surprised.

Well now with the press release they pretty much have - the genie is out of the bottle.

Unless they step back and sell them separately like Absolute did when Introducing EVE Pulpy I see no way left for them to get out of this mess now with a win. Can you imagine the  "is that now for Lara, LaraX, Lara Petite, PetiteX, Lara Flat, FlatX, VTech, VTechX?" confusion this will cause when shopping or even just trying recombining a new outfit from inventory? I already pity CSRs for the chaos they will have to endure in group chats.

19 minutes ago, Kplh said:

If this scenario doesn't work out, people will continue using their current stuff and nothing will change. Sure, there will be wasted effort on making that body, and for some creators that do make stuff for it. Just like with any new body release.

Unless there is huge customer pressure creators will not continue rigging for Lara. But there won't be, because most customers don't lurk on social media, they will be dumbfounded when this one hits them. If this marketing stunt doesn't work out Maitreya would have to revive a market they just killed themselves... not gonna happen. Customers are not as forgiving as you think they are.

 

 

IMHO it is already too late to fix it. The course is set, the lamps are go. All we have left is watching the situation unfold, ... want some popcorn?

[Gabriele Graves]

3 minutes ago, Claireschen Hesten said:

Creators are already dropping Lara, as popular as it still is when I was doing my weekend sales shopping yesterday I noticed everything I was interested in didn't include Lara. Saved me a lot of money. It was mostly Lagacy/Reborn, Lagacy is a nonstarter for me and I'd be very reluctant to go Reborn as I'm not overly keen on the shape 

Those creators are probably more heavily into catering for a particular body style which Maitreya doesn't really provide and so they don't get many sales from Maitreya customers anyway.

I've been finding in my shopping that Maitreya is as available for the types of clothing I'm interested in as it ever was.  That's said, I've been struggling to find as much clothing from weekend sales that appealed to me at all.