Mainstream failure of SL & Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Oh, totally. Of course. I'm just responding in a slightly peevish way.

Lol, no worries. I know you didn't mean it like that. I'm just being silly.

SL is a huge, vast world that appeals to all kinds for a myriad of reasons. Gamers and non. It's hard to say what will help retention and what won't (beyond the obvious - good tutorials, easy onboarding, fun character creation, etc.). Plenty of the ideas being floated wouldn't appeal to me whatsoever as a gamer, but others would love them. That's what happens when you've got a massively diverse population.

 

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And I do play games. And watch them being played.

And watch the player playing them. (Partially because he's kinda cute.)

Annnnnd see, now you're gonna have to jump in my DMs and share who that is. For...science.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Can you please just stop with this doom and gloom. I mean to you, the sky may be falling. But it's been what? 20 years? and SL is still standing? No way!! The sky ain't falling, I think things are fine. I mean if you don't like the direction it is going, leave. It is as plain and simple as that. Not everything has to be mainstream.  

Edited July 1, 2023 by Sammy Huntsman

[Scylla Rhiadra]

9 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

SL is a huge, vast world that appeals to all kinds for a myriad of reasons. Gamers and non. It's hard to say what will help retention and what won't (beyond the obvious - good tutorials, easy onboarding, fun character creation, etc.). Plenty of the ideas being floated wouldn't appeal to me whatsoever as a gamer, but others would love them. That's what happens when you've got a massively diverse population.

Well, yes! And that's really all I've been saying, ultimately: a one-size-fits-all paradigm for understanding how people use the platform, and how best to retain them, is foolishness.

10 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Annnnnd see, now you're gonna have to jump in my DMs and share who that is. For...science.

Ironically, he's one of the main reasons why I abandoned the platform for some years, beginning at the end of 2011. RL suddenly seemed a lot more compelling than it had.

Still does, really. I just organize my time better now.

[Coffee Pancake]

18 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Hey! 😒

But no really, I'm glad SL attracts all kinds of people. Ya know, with different needs n stuff.

 

 

Yes, SL attracts all kinds of people.

NONE OF THEM STAY

 

The gate-keeping has to end. We need people desperately. We need to stop deliberately getting it wrong, or deliberately refusing to acknowledge solutions that might bring "the wrong sort".

The hierarchy of needs is a good basis for this discussion as it highlights something that has been solved in the wider gaming industry.

There is a real risk this whole wonderful mess implodes overnight, and people will be happy that they fought the good fight to keep the place pure, the world wasn't ready .. 🎠💩

[Persephone Emerald]

9 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Yes, SL attracts all kinds of people.

NONE OF THEM STAY

 

The gate-keeping has to end. We need people desperately. We need to stop deliberately getting it wrong, or deliberately refusing to acknowledge solutions that might bring "the wrong sort".

The hierarchy of needs is a good basis for this discussion as it highlights something that has been solved in the wider gaming industry.

There is a real risk this whole wonderful mess implodes overnight, and people will be happy that they fought the good fight to keep the place pure, the world wasn't ready .. 🎠💩

Forum folk are not keeping new users out of SL. Some just like to complain...alot.

I think the list of different  types of gamers was more useful to this discussion than Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Forum folk are not keeping new users out of SL. Some just like to complain...alot.

I think the list of different  types of gamers was more useful to this discussion than Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

What happens here does and has impacted LL decision making and policy.

13 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Can you please just stop with this doom and gloom. I mean to you, the sky may be falling. But it's been what? 20 years? and SL is still standing? No way!! The sky ain't falling, I think things are fine. I mean if you don't like the direction it is going, leave. It is as plain and simple as that. Not everything has to be mainstream.  

We will never be mainstream, you don't have to worry about that.

We're not even asking for much.

Get your head of the sand and look at the published stats. Pay attention to what LL do, what are they spending money on. What are they saying. We're way past the days of the LL executive treating this like some magical unknowable golden goose and spending the money on everything, anything, else.

LL are dumping cash on Linden Homes (the only part of the platform to have affected retention and certain measurements of growth). They are finally overhauling the viewer and building new platform capabilities (the software is old and irrelevant), there is a full fat mobile viewer in development finally, the new user experience with new avatars and mentors is a massive shift.

We have never seen this scale of a shift towards building out SL from LL ever before. We have been in a 20 year decline, we're past the point it's started to bite.

 

It's great you don't notice. Some of us do.

[MissSweetViolet]

17 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

 

Yes, SL attracts all kinds of people.

NONE OF THEM STAY

 

The gate-keeping has to end. We need people desperately. We need to stop deliberately getting it wrong, or deliberately refusing to acknowledge solutions that might bring "the wrong sort".

The hierarchy of needs is a good basis for this discussion as it highlights something that has been solved in the wider gaming industry.

There is a real risk this whole wonderful mess implodes overnight, and people will be happy that they fought the good fight to keep the place pure, the world wasn't ready .. 🎠💩

Considering I know some who joined months ago and are still here, and I joined 5 years ago nearly and am still here, some people do stay, how many I do not know, but to say all leave is a pretty bold absolute statement, something I'm noticing a pattern here in.

[Sammy Huntsman]

3 minutes ago, MissSweetViolet said:

Considering I know some who joined months ago and are still here, and I joined 5 years ago nearly and am still here, some people do stay, how many I do not know, but to say all leave is a pretty bold absolute statement, something I'm noticing a pattern here in.

She likes to make those broad statements without really backing up her claims. I mean yeah not everyone stays, but you may have one or two out of say 100 that stay. And in my eyes, that is pretty good. And she also uses gatekeeping, without providing any sort of explanation of what is being gatekept from new users that somehow all aren't staying. Lol 

[Sammy Huntsman]

27 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Yes, SL attracts all kinds of people.

NONE OF THEM STAY

Please provide actual evidence to your claim that none of them stay. 

[Arielle Popstar]

11 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I think the list of different  types of gamers was more useful to this discussion than Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

I am thinking the difference is because the one user is committed to coming here and ready to spend money and thereby not having to worry about climbing Maslow's pyramid. That is vs those who come to check out this "free platform" and not committing to spending any monies till they have thoroughly checked it out. Those sort would be climbing the pyramid.

[MissSweetViolet]

4 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

She likes to make those broad statements without really backing up her claims. I mean yeah not everyone stays, but you may have one or two out of say 100 that stay. And in my eyes, that is pretty good. And she also uses gatekeeping, without providing any sort of explanation of what is being gatekept from new users that somehow all aren't staying. Lol 

I mean I'm not saying she's not made valid points, she has, many here have on both sides of the debate, and there's no easy one size fits all solution. I agree that something needs to be done for retention, what that looks like, I don't know yet. But I'm just aware they based off whom I meet that there are definitely new users that stay, because I interact with them.

Edited July 1, 2023 by MissSweetViolet

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Please provide actual evidence to your claim that none of them stay. 

If they did, you'd see many more new people rather then hardly any.

[Sammy Huntsman]

The whole problem with these statements, you say that SL is doomed. I mean sure, if a bunch of people left and took their money with them. But with the buying of Linden, the paying of premium, and the other stuff.  With the amount of people here, LL will keep SL open until that dries up and no one pays. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

If they did, you'd see many more new people rather then hardly any.

Why is not seeing many people such a bad thing? 

[Coffee Pancake]

8 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

She likes to make those broad statements without really backing up her claims

... It's hardly my fault if people who value the forums more than the platform aren't paying attention.

4 minutes ago, MissSweetViolet said:

Considering I know some who joined months ago and are still here, and I joined 5 years ago nearly and am still here, some people do stay, how many I do not know, but to say all leave is a pretty bold absolute statement, something I'm noticing a pattern here in.

We can all point to individual cases where people joined and we made new friends or whatever.

Meanwhile ... 

2021 - Maximum Daily Concurrency: 53, 000 to 55, 000 (average)

https://danielvoyager.wordpress.com/2021/12/28/second-life-user-concurrency-remains-stable-through-2021/

2023 - Maximum: 46,000 to 52, 000 – (average)

https://danielvoyager.wordpress.com/2023/03/13/second-life-user-daily-concurrency-march-2023-update/

 

Our current HIGH population is the LOW population from 2021

Awesome.

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Why is not seeing many people such a bad thing? 

If you not seeing many noobs out and about in shopping areas, clubs, and events and only some newer accounts who have all the bodies and newest fashions, it means the only new people are alts of existing accounts.

[Silent Mistwalker]

8 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

... It's hardly my fault if people who value the forums more than the platform aren't paying attention.

We can all point to individual cases where people joined and we made new friends or whatever.

Meanwhile ... 

2021 - Maximum Daily Concurrency: 53, 000 to 55, 000 (average)

https://danielvoyager.wordpress.com/2021/12/28/second-life-user-concurrency-remains-stable-through-2021/

2023 - Maximum: 46,000 to 52, 000 – (average)

https://danielvoyager.wordpress.com/2023/03/13/second-life-user-daily-concurrency-march-2023-update/

 

Our current HIGH population is the LOW population from 2021

Awesome.

It's the first summer we haven't all been locked in due to Covid. Most people are out enjoying what they were denied for 2 years (or more). 

The drop is to be expected in the summer anyway. It's happened every year for the past 19 years that I personally know of.

If you're going to build a mountain out of a mole hill you should really make sure the mole hill is foundationally stable.

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

It's the first summer we haven't all been locked in due to Covid. Most people are out enjoying what they were denied for 2 years (or more). 

The drop is to be expected in the summer anyway. It's happened every year for the past 19 years that I personally know of.

If you're going to build a mountain out of a mole hill you should really make sure the mole hill is foundationally stable.

You took the words right out of my mouth. It is the first Summer, post COVID. People want to be out and not on the PCs all day. And before COVID, you would see a rapid drop during summer holidays. Only picking up more during September. 

[Coffee Pancake]

9 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

It's the first summer we haven't all been locked in due to Covid. Most people are out enjoying what they were denied for 2 years (or more). 

The drop is to be expected in the summer anyway. It's happened every year for the past 19 years that I personally know of.

If you're going to build a mountain out of a mole hill you should really make sure the mole hill is foundationally stable.

Wouldn't it be great if we had a business model that didn't depend on the world breaking and people being forced to spend time at home.

 

There is lots of data that's openly published. Don't read it.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Coffee Pancake

[Scylla Rhiadra]

This thread, which started with an interesting premise, has unfortunately become essentially a rerun of the "SL is all about sex" thread -- with "gamification" and "goals" substituted for pixel bumping.

And the reason for that is that we are all exhibiting an unsurprising but unfortunate tendency to, once again, assume that our experience of SL -- or of sex, or of games, or of coupon clipping. or whatever -- is THE experience that matters and is most valid.

And so tempers are getting frayed -- including, regretfully, mine, so I apologize if I've sounded snarky to whomever I may have snarked at.

I'll just exit with this quick note:

1) There are two main things being discussed now: does SL have a retention problem (yes, it does, I think), and is some form of gamification the "solution." These are different questions. If we agree that LL can do more to recruit, retain, and generally please new residents, it does not follow that there is only one way to do it, and that gamification, goal-oriented approaches, and other mechanisms borrowed from conventional games is the only way to address it. Does this approach have merits? Sure! Is it going to universally succeed with everyone? Definitely not.

2) And following on the above, I just want again to stress the diversity of SL. Gamers are an important part of the demographic here, and always have been. But they constitute a very small proportion of my own fairly sizable communities. People here come from an enormous variety of places and contexts, and they are going to be attracted by an equally diverse range of things to do in SL.

So, the obvious solution is to produce a carefully-considered mix of different approaches to recruitment and retention, and to offer people a choice of the approach they wish to take, whether it is through some kind of game- and goal-oriented series of tasks, or a more open and unstructured approach.

Acknowledging diversity of experience is vital. And responding to that diversity with choice, in such a way that empowers each and every new user to make of SL what they most want, is absolutely the only really wise way to approach this problem.

Anyway, that's a wrap for me! Scylla, over and out!

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Wouldn't it be great if we had a business model that didn't depend on the world breaking and people being forced to spend time at home.

 

There is lots of data that's openly published. Don't read it.

Well there is no business model like that now. It's just normal summer things, you won't see as much people sign up or login during summer. As they want to go out, experience outdoor life and generally have some fun in their real life. Is that a problem? no, I don't know why you are acting like it is. That being said, we will start to see things pick up between September and October, as it is school time and some of the people who log in are parents. But the others, are probably all tired and pooped from all this summer fun, and they generally want to relax. This is how it has always been, and will never change. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Wouldn't it be great if we had a business model that didn't depend on the world breaking and people being forced to spend time at home.

 

There is lots of data that's openly published. Don't read it.

It would be great if people wouldn't keep trying to force what they want on the rest of the world.

There's no data that is worth the paper it is printed on especially statistics.

I do not want to live in your world. From what I can see it's an even worse nightmare than the one I already live in.

[Coffee Pancake]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Acknowledging diversity of experience is vital. And responding to that diversity with choice, in such a way that empowers each and every new user to make of SL what they most want, is absolutely the only really wise way to approach this problem.

That's a lot of words that evaluates into "do nothing". Those of us who do come up with specifics get shot down over and over again. it honestly doesn't matter what it is. The same few people will hate it, and then debate hating it.

Someone put up a motivational cat poster .. oh no, are we sure?

We're past subtly nudging the needle to create a broad platform for all types. It doesn't work.

If we can get just one demographic to show up and keep showing up we win, we have to start somewhere and that somewhere will favor one group more than another.

We have spent 20 year pretending this isn't a game because a portion of the demographic freak out. The idea they are playing a game all day every day devalues their experience because they irrationally detest those who do play games. 

Someone take down the "get off my lawn" sign .. oh no, are we sure?

 

4 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I do not want to live in your world. From what I can see it's an even worse nightmare than the one I already live in.

[Silent Mistwalker]

Man, when you blow smoke, you really blow chunks. I'm out.

[MissSweetViolet]

12 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

That's a lot of words that evaluates into "do nothing". Those of us who do come up with specifics get shot down over and over again. it honestly doesn't matter what it is. The same few people will hate it, and then debate hating it.

Someone put up a motivational cat poster .. oh no, are we sure?

We're past subtly nudging the needle to create a broad platform for all types. It doesn't work.

If we can get just one demographic to show up and keep showing up we win, we have to start somewhere and that somewhere will favor one group more than another.

We have spent 20 year pretending this isn't a game because a portion of the demographic freak out. The idea they are playing a game all day every day devalues their experience because they irrationally detest those who do play games. 

Someone take down the "get off my lawn" sign .. oh no, are we sure?

 

I think many have offered lots of diverse option and the person I keep seeing shoot them down is you, you seem to just want things your way and only your way, and I honestly don't even think that is at all how you are meaning to sound at all. But I don't think it's as simple as just take one suggestion, it is a diverse base, it needs a diverse approach. I don't think targeting just one in the long run is a good idea even if it helps in the short term. I've seen you present this pyramid of needs and a general though, but what exactly do you think think should be done to meet it, I don't recall you giving any ideas on what LL should implement (and you may correct if I have missed or forgotten anything).