Mainstream failure of SL & Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

[Hunny Bunny]

35 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Idea: Make users pay more who want the adult content.  I'd be OK with that!

After all, it's not at the bottom of the Hierarchy.

I triple dog dare them.

[Arielle Popstar]

23 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Brilliant!  Only Premium or Premium Plus have access to adult content.  Do other games/socials do that?  

Imvu does that to some degree. To see adult content one pays a single fee for Access Pass if at least 18 years old. There has been talk on and off of making it an annual subscription or something but not so far.

[Sid Nagy]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Where you see a person viewing reality with illusion (rose-colored glasses), I see a visionary.

When I think of Philip I see both.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Sid Nagy said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Where you see a person viewing reality with illusion (rose-colored glasses), I see a visionary.

When I think of Philip I see both.

I think it's cool, because you can see someone wearing sunglasses and think, "Look! A visionary!"

Whereas.."visionary" implies "vision", and tinted glasses help you to "see"..help your "vision"..

 

[Luna Bliss]

Just now, Sid Nagy said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Where you see a person viewing reality with illusion (rose-colored glasses), I see a visionary.

When I think of Philip I see both.

I actually don't know everything he's voiced, so could be  I'd agree some stuff was unrealistic.

With this Maslow stuff tho and its implications for SL, I agree with him.

[Coffee Pancake]

41 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

If Second Life disappeared tomorrow, we'd all be fine.

No, we wouldn't all be fine. 

There would be a very human cost if all this went away. There are people here who do absolutely depend on this platform.

[Persephone Emerald]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Maslow's Hierarchy Of Needs was updated to include Self-Transcendence in more recent years, and is now more in alignment with Transpersonal Psychology, which I love.

Previously, before the humanistic approach Maslow took, people were viewed as 'sick' , often using a more medical model, or too mechanical (like with much of Behavior Psychology).

The updated Maslow and Transpersonal Psychology paints a more complete picture, and a much more optimistic one regarding human behavior and motivation.

When I read this I envisioned a 3-dimensional pyramid, with each side representing different personality-types. We could always make psychological models more complicated, because people are complicated, but going too far makes the models too unwieldly to be useful. 

The basic levels of Maslow's model are simple - survival first. This means people have to be able to survive in RL before they'll even consider playing in SL. Practically speaking, this means SL must not be too expensive or require computers that are too expensive for most people to use. 

The other levels above this are all necessary to have a good quality of life. Many people will meet these needs just fine without ever using SL, but for others this platforms allows them to meet these needs in ways they can't easily meet in RL. They can make friends, virtually travel, create and sell things, even have sexual or other fun and interesting experiences that would be difficult or impossible for them to have in RL. This ability to experience a wide variety of situations beyond what people can do in RL is one of the most crucial aspects of SL. Reducing or limiting any of these experiences that many people love would be stupid, and LL isn't that stupid. They're not going to eliminate virtual sex, group chat, mesh bodies, furies, vampires, LGTBQ+ sims, or anything that isn't illegal or untenable for the company. 

Self-Actualization can be partially realized in SL for those who are exploring new ways of viewing themselves. They can play as a different gender than the one that's been assigned to them. They can explore activities they haven't been able to do in RL. They can act more confident or more submissive. They can radically change their avatar appearance or be multiple personalities. They don't even have to be human in SL, which for those who may identify as spiritually or psychologically non-human is a form of self-actualization they probably can't experience in RL.

How could Self-Transcendence be realized in SL? I don't understand this concept well-enough to discuss it. Does it mean valuing other people besides oneself? or transcending everyday desires and limiting views? 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

No, we wouldn't all be fine. 

There would be a very human cost if all this went away. There are people here who do absolutely depend on this platform.

I am trying to reconcile this with your statement that you'd leave tomorrow if adult content / activities were no longer allowed.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

When I read this I envisioned a 3-dimensional pyramid, with each side representing different personality-types. We could always make psychological models more complicated, because people are complicated, but going too far makes the models too unwieldly to be useful. 

The basic levels of Maslow's model are simple - survival first. This means people have to be able to survive in RL before they'll even consider playing in SL. Practically speaking, this means SL must not be too expensive or require computers that are too expensive for most people to use. 

The other levels above this are all necessary to have a good quality of life. Many people will meet these needs just fine without ever using SL, but for others this platforms allows them to meet these needs in ways they can't easily meet in RL. They can make friends, virtually travel, create and sell things, even have sexual or other fun and interesting experiences that would be difficult or impossible for them to have in RL. This ability to experience a wide variety of situations beyond what people can do in RL is one of the most crucial aspects of SL. Reducing or limiting any of these experiences that many people love would be stupid, and LL isn't that stupid. They're not going to eliminate virtual sex, group chat, mesh bodies, furies, vampires, LGTBQ+ sims, or anything that isn't illegal or untenable for the company. 

Self-Actualization can be partially realized in SL for those who are exploring new ways of viewing themselves. They can play as a different gender than the one that's been assigned to them. They can explore activities they haven't been able to do in RL. They can act more confident or more submissive. They can radically change their avatar appearance or be multiple personalities. They don't even have to be human in SL, which for those who may identify as spiritually or psychologically non-human is a form of self-actualization they probably can't experience in RL.

How could Self-Transcendence be realized in SL? I don't understand this concept well-enough to discuss it. Does it mean valuing other people besides oneself? or transcending everyday desires and limiting views? 

I really like your analysis.

[Persephone Emerald]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

This sums it up pretty well if you leave out the rest.  Honestly, psychology models from the 1950's have mostly been supplanted.

Back then when Maslow was working, homosexuality was a disease.

So, I hope they stopped teaching the Hierarchy a long time ago to Psych 101 students.

The model itself makes no statement about sexuality specifically, though being able to connect physically and romantically with other people would fall under the 3rd level of Belonging and being able to be the person one really wants to be would fall under the top level of Self-Actualization.

[Sid Nagy]

12 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

No, we wouldn't all be fine. 

There would be a very human cost if all this went away. There are people here who do absolutely depend on this platform.

Never hold on to a digital platform whether it is a forum, an online game or something like SL as your solemn life buoy. It can disappear over night. Happened before, will happen again.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Sid Nagy
Small text improvements.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

The problems that are likely to arise when instituting elements that belong to the bottom of the pyramid relate to the way in which these are handled.

A great many of the ills of society -- and of SL too, arguably -- are the result of competition for a scarcity of resources. "Scarcity" in that sense doesn't just mean that there is a certain amount of corn that can be harvested, or a certain number of "jewels" that can be gathered for points or whatever: it also relates to anything that has to be "paid for" in some fashion. Something that costs L$1 is, by definition, "scarce" in the sense that not everyone can access it: you have to have Lindens. Something that requires an expenditure of non-trivial time also produces a scarcity: some people will have hours a day to expend on it, while others might be limited by RL to a few hours a week.

And all of these "scarcities" will produce competition of some form or another, and will advantage some over others. It will also produce particular behaviours that are not necessarily very desirable, like "grinding" for resources -- what we used to see in SL in the form of camping, for instance. Whatever else might be said for such resource scarcity "workarounds," they don't much confer enjoyment. Not too many people enjoy grinding as an activity, and most people who camped simply went AFK while doing so.

It's also the kind of thing that leads to people creating and then selling fully developed accounts, something not permitted by the ToS, but rife in other games.

So, I think we need to make a distinction between activities that produce these kinds of unwanted effects, and those that instead do things we'd like to see happen -- such as community building.

If something like this is to be instituted, it needs to be done in such a way as to incentivize activities that will, in and of themselves, confer enjoyment and benefit to both the person engaged, and the grid as a whole. And we need to avoid things that result in competition, inequity, and mere labour for the sake of labour.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra
Typos, of course

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Sid Nagy said:

Never hold on to a digital platform whether it is a forum and online game or something like SL as your solemn life buoy. It can disappear over night. Happened before, will happen again.

I was taught this applies to EVERYTHING. So, I agree.

[Love Zhaoying]

From the first 3 top Google hits of "Is Maslow's Hierarchy of needs still relevant?" : 

Quote: "Maslow's hierarchy of needs continues to be widely popular and mostly well-accepted, but the available evidence does not necessarily support Maslow's theory."

https://www.verywellmind.com/updating-maslows-hierarchy-of-needs-2795269

Quote: "Since Maslow's death, research has found there to be partial to little or no evidence for the validity of the five-need hierarchy."

https://www.td.org/insights/maslows-hierarchy-separating-fact-from-fiction

Quote: "Maslow's hierarchy of needs is not validated by research."

https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/maslows-hierarchy-of-needs-research

[Coffee Pancake]

48 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I am trying to reconcile this with your statement that you'd leave tomorrow if adult content / activities were no longer allowed.

how about .. I will be manage, but I know enough people here who absolutely wont be, and with the best will in the world, I couldn't make up for their loss.

Some people I know very personally will not land on their feet, and I can not be expected to catch them alone.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Coffee Pancake

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

From the first 3 top Google hits of "Is Maslow's Hierarchy of needs still relevant?" : 

Quote: "Maslow's hierarchy of needs continues to be widely popular and mostly well-accepted, but the available evidence does not necessarily support Maslow's theory."

https://www.verywellmind.com/updating-maslows-hierarchy-of-needs-2795269

Quote: "Since Maslow's death, research has found there to be partial to little or no evidence for the validity of the five-need hierarchy."

https://www.td.org/insights/maslows-hierarchy-separating-fact-from-fiction

Quote: "Maslow's hierarchy of needs is not validated by research."

https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/maslows-hierarchy-of-needs-research

Yes, it's very complicated and there are controversies.

But I think we need to focus on Philip's assertions....does removing some of these needs on the lower levels of the pyramid allow for some to be more creative?

I'm certain it does.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

20 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I am trying to reconcile this with your statement that you'd leave tomorrow if adult content / activities were no longer allowed.

how about .. I will be manage, but I know enough people here who absolutely wont be, and with the best will in the world, I couldn't make up for their loss.

Some people I know very personally will not land on their feed, and I can not be expected to catch them alone.

What I was trying to reconcile is:

A lot of us would stick around even AFTER some change we hate, just because we love Second Life so much and it is hard to let go. 

Actually walking away because of some change implies you don't love it so much; even if it hurts to walk away (when you finally do). 

I hope you don't take it the wrong way, I'm just trying to be precise.

 

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

21 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I am trying to reconcile this with your statement that you'd leave tomorrow if adult content / activities were no longer allowed.

how about .. I will be manage, but I know enough people here who absolutely wont be, and with the best will in the world, I couldn't make up for their loss.

Some people I know very personally will not land on their feed, and I can not be expected to catch them alone.

Yes, or how about "our lives would be greatly diminished"....and this happens with anything 1st life or 2nd life we've heavily invested in.

[Persephone Emerald]

54 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Something to be said for keeping things simple too and understandable to the layman.

Layered information and terminology is actually used in any discipline. The way a doctor speaks to a patient about a condition is different than the way one doctor would speak to another about that condition. 

This view is also followed in organizations that have hierarchical levels of initiation, such as the Masons for instance. The first level folks get the simple version of their values, beliefs and goals. Some people who want to learn more and are allowed to advance up the levels to learn more "secret" teachings, goals and practices. Note, I'm not advancing any paranoid conspiracies here. Often teachings that are cloaked as being secret and advanced can be found elsewhere in books or online. It's just a matter of seeking different views and then deciding for oneself what is true and useful. Another example is a Wiccan tradition that had a "secret" initiatory teaching that when an apple is sliced crosswise it looks like a pentagram. That's not really significant information, though it may make some people feel special that they know that.

A model is only useful if people feel like it is, and simple models tend to make more sense to most people.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

But I think we need to focus on Philip's assertions

No, sorry.  I'd rather focus on the OP's assertions:

19 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Second Life does not present any challenge to users that quality as being psychological or survival. This is the missing piece that causes people to leave so early in their journey here. They join SL and find nothing to do. There is no challenge to be met. No purpose to set them off on their adventure. No experience that allows them to define their starting place.

The need to meet psychological and survival requirements is so baked into all of us, that when presented with its absence, most people .. move on.

This is, in my estimation, why Linden homes have been successful for growth of premium membership and retention where everything else has failed. It presents a facsimile of foundational needs for people to complete. Find a place to call home, and in the process, find a foot hold for their place in Second Life.

Sounds reasonable in the context of the discussion (noting that it has been edited from the original version, and I don't know what changed).

What I quoted above was the last part of Coffee's original post. So, I'm not sure anymore what the question is.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

29 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

The basic levels of Maslow's model are simple - survival first. This means people have to be able to survive in RL before they'll even consider playing in SL. Practically speaking, this means SL must not be too expensive or require computers that are too expensive for most people to use.

Thank you, Persephone: this expresses something that had occurred to me, but that I didn't have the brain cells or energy to articulate properly, or as well as you have.

The point being that the "survival" aspects of SL are present, but not actually on the grid. They are preconditions to be here at all.

[Persephone Emerald]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Some Adult Websites used to / still do, whether "pornography" or "dating" sites.  You only get "certain adult features" unless you pay. The easiest example is "OnlyFans" - a "subscription" site. 

If people want "free pornography", they can Google it.  Nobody says they have to get it here, on Linden Lab's dime, that we all pay for with our dues, tier fees, transaction fees, etc.  

Just a thought. 🙂 

Adult content is not free in SL, or at least the better quality content isn't. Anyone can use a free avatar with a freenis on a free Adult sim, but someone is paying for that sim and someone paid at some point to put that freenis on Marketplace. 

For better quality adult play, one needs to buy a mesh body, a nice skin, mesh adult bits, hair, etc. , then they will probably pay to join an adult group or sim or pay for the services of a partner, who has also paid for a body, skin, bits, etc.

There's no reason to make access to these areas more expensive than they already are, because the people buying stuff for them and for their enjoyment of them are supporting the SL economy.

[Rowan Amore]

13 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

What I was trying to reconcile is:

A lot of us would stick around even AFTER some change we hate, just because we love Second Life so much and it is hard to let go. 

Actually walking away because of some change implies you don't love it so much; even if it hurts to walk away (when you finally do). 

I hope you don't take it the wrong way, I'm just trying to be precise.

 

Most of us here have weathered numerous changes over the years.  Too many to list.    We use mesh instead of prims...people adapted or didn't.  Mesh bodies, windlight, eep, changes with Adult content, group.chat not working, etc.  Some people did leave.  I'd say most stay in spite of those changes.

However, the basic principle of the game, which is really no principle, has not changed.  A drastic change as suggested, would be to some, exactly like.taking away adult content to others.  A mass exodus.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Rowan Amore

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Most of us here have weathered numerous changes over the years.  Too many to list.    We use mesh instead of prims...people adapted or didn't.  Mesh bodies, windlight, eep, changes with Adult content, group.chat not working, etc.  Some people did leave.  I'd say most stay in spite of those changes.

However, the basic principle of the game, which is really no principle, has not changed.  A drastic change as suggested, would be to some, exactly like.taking away adult content to others.  A mass exodus.

Understood.  With that understanding, Phillip / Oberwolf said to "trust them", so I think that I will.

[Luna Bliss]

21 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

26 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

But I think we need to focus on Philip's assertions

No, sorry.  I'd rather focus on the OP's assertions:

19 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Second Life does not present any challenge to users that quality as being psychological or survival. This is the missing piece that causes people to leave so early in their journey here. They join SL and find nothing to do. There is no challenge to be met. No purpose to set them off on their adventure. No experience that allows them to define their starting place.

The need to meet psychological and survival requirements is so baked into all of us, that when presented with its absence, most people .. move on.

This is, in my estimation, why Linden homes have been successful for growth of premium membership and retention where everything else has failed. It presents a facsimile of foundational needs for people to complete. Find a place to call home, and in the process, find a foot hold for their place in Second Life.

Sounds reasonable in the context of the discussion (noting that it has been edited from the original version, and I don't know what changed).

What I quoted above was the last part of Coffee's original post. So, I'm not sure anymore what the question is.

Yes but the OP's assertions related to Maslow and Phiip's assertions so..........nvm