Avatars are anti social

[Coffee Pancake]

A common criticism ..

• Visit a social location, dozens of carefully dressed avatars standing around in silence.
• Why are these people not all having an entertaining conversation that one might listen in on, and perhaps join in?
• Put all the same people together in group chat or discord and that conversation will happen and continue to happen.

This behavior is replicated on other platforms and MMOs.

In WoW for example, local chat is dead. Trade chat (a region wide chat where toons/avatars are not in close proximity) is very active. Guild chat (like our group chat) is also active. Dungeon chat is dead aside from purposeful information (don't go that way, wait for me a moment, etc).

Minecraft, people will randomly chat when miles apart .. but not when together without purpose.

 

People will chose not to engage with avatars in the same local vicinity unless all are personally known or they have no other choice. If conversation is forced to local, it will be brief and to the point. Local social among strangers can happen when centered around one or two instigators, the moment they leave, it ends.

Avatars are anti social.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Really interesting hypothesis.

It's not, of course, always true of SL that gatherings of avatars together in the same space result in silence, all communication in IM, etc. -- the places I go, and really, the places I select to go, are all characteristically very chatty in local, even with dozens of avatars present. And that's not always because people already know each other -- although such places, I think, tend to build communities, so "knowing everyone" is possibly actually a function of local chat.

But I think you're on to something here, in a general way.

If it is true that virtual disembodiment and anonymity "free" people to be more garrulous, and notoriously also frequently more toxic, could it be that virtual embodiment, even where some kind of anonymity (which is really pseudonymity) is retained, inhibits people because, well, it feels too much like RL embodiment and presence?

It's also a function of the technology, too. If I'm at a RL party with 30 people, there might well be, say, 10 conversations going on, and the room will be noisy and obviously highly sociable.

In SL, you couldn't have 10 different conversations publicly unfolding in the same space: it would be chaos. So, the equivalent of talking to 3 or 4 people in a crowded RL venue is taking it to IM instead. It's not actually less sociable: it's just that that sociability is not as publicly evident.

But I do wonder if you haven't hit on something.

[Luna Bliss]

10 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

A common criticism ..

• Visit a social location, dozens of carefully dressed avatars standing around in silence.
• Why are these people not all having an entertaining conversation that one might listen in on, and perhaps join in?
• Put all the same people together in group chat or discord and that conversation will happen and continue to happen.

This behavior is replicated on other platforms and MMOs.

In WoW for example, local chat is dead. Trade chat (a region wide chat where toons/avatars are not in close proximity) is very active. Guild chat (like our group chat) is also active. Dungeon chat is dead aside from purposeful information (don't go that way, wait for me a moment, etc).

Minecraft, people will randomly chat when miles apart .. but not when together without purpose.

 

People will chose not to engage with avatars in the same local vicinity unless all are personally known or they have no other choice. If conversation is forced to local, it will be brief and to the point. Local social among strangers can happen when centered around one or two instigators, the moment they leave, it ends.

Avatars are anti social.

I wouldn't label them "anti-social".  I think many are just more shy in group situations.

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

A common criticism ..

• Visit a social location, dozens of carefully dressed avatars standing around in silence.
• Why are these people not all having an entertaining conversation that one might listen in on, and perhaps join in?
• Put all the same people together in group chat or discord and that conversation will happen and continue to happen.

This behavior is replicated on other platforms and MMOs.

In WoW for example, local chat is dead. Trade chat (a region wide chat where toons/avatars are not in close proximity) is very active. Guild chat (like our group chat) is also active. Dungeon chat is dead aside from purposeful information (don't go that way, wait for me a moment, etc).

Minecraft, people will randomly chat when miles apart .. but not when together without purpose.

 

People will chose not to engage with avatars in the same local vicinity unless all are personally known or they have no other choice. If conversation is forced to local, it will be brief and to the point. Local social among strangers can happen when centered around one or two instigators, the moment they leave, it ends.

Avatars are anti social.

Do you have a solution?

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

17 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This behavior is replicated on other platforms and MMOs.

In WoW for example, local chat is dead. Trade chat (a region wide chat where toons/avatars are not in close proximity) is very active. Guild chat (like our group chat) is also active. Dungeon chat is dead aside from purposeful information (don't go that way, wait for me a moment, etc).

 

My man played a couple MMOs.  If there is local chat --- it's from a gold seller.  I even saw one of those in world here other day when I took a short tour of the SL20B areas.  Couple of avatars saying over and over "3W ***** c o m --$Lindens---2000 5$---1043" - the last 4 numbers change on each shout.

Attempted to lodge an AR report, but the client crashed and burned on me.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Kimmi Zehetbauer
Senile.

[Rowan Amore]

Been like that since I started and I agree with @Scylla Rhiadra.  Local chat,.to me, has always seemed like standing up in the front of class to give a report.  I detested doing that.  I'd be so nervous the paper wouldn't stop.shaking.  

I can have a perfectly good conversation at a restaurant.  My chat isn't broadcast to everyone, though as it is in SL.  I just want to talk with the person next to me not the people across the room.  That's where SL and RL differ.  The range of people who hear you is much greater than RL.  Who wants that?  

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Been like that since I started and I agree with @Scylla Rhiadra.  Local chat,.to me, has always seemed like standing up in the front of class to give a report.  I detested doing that.  I'd be so nervous the paper wouldn't stop.shaking.  

I can have a perfectly good conversation at a restaurant.  My chat isn't broadcast to everyone, though as it is in SL.  I just want to talk with the person next to me not the people across the room.  That's where SL and RL differ.  The range of people who hear you is much greater than RL.  Who wants that?  

Yeah, if I'm at a club, there will typically be a lot of chatter in local -- but it tends to be a single conversation, with lots of participants. The addition of even a second topic of conversation confuses it, and generally one topic or the other will "win out."

But at the same time, I'll generally be in IM with anywhere from one to four or so of the others present: my dance partner (if I have one), plus one or two others.

So, again, lots of sociability, and actually a similar dynamic, but the instrumentality, how it is actually articulated, is different.

[Love Zhaoying]

Plus, in some local chats, there's an individual who just.won't.shut.up. Oops, I was thinking about Voice.

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Plus, in some local chats, there's an individual who just.won't.shut.up. Oops, I was thinking about Voice.

It happens in local.as well.  Small.places.where everyone is familiar, are totally different than busy clubs.  I don't multitask conversations in RL.  I try not to do that in SL.  

You also need to consider that there are a good number of people who find public speaking impossible and let's face it, local chat is public speaking, 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It's also a function of the technology, too. If I'm at a RL party with 30 people, there might well be, say, 10 conversations going on, and the room will be noisy and obviously highly sociable.

In SL, you couldn't have 10 different conversations publicly unfolding in the same space: it would be chaos. So, the equivalent of talking to 3 or 4 people in a crowded RL venue is taking it to IM instead. It's not actually less sociable: it's just that that sociability is not as publicly evident.

Very much this. I play and have played a lot of different MMOs where local and/or general chat is absolute chaos. Hey, anybody have a good sword for a newbie? Anybody know if *insert world boss here* is up yet? Who wants to go to *insert dungeon here?* No, you're a $@#$!!! Guys, please stop fighting. No u, scrub. I'm reporting you! Shut up, noob! I'm selling a legendary, contact for details! Knights of the Round Ping Pong Table are recruiting, seeking players for PvP/WvW/PvE/RP/Guild Missions, 18+, noobs welcome, whisper for details! This game sux. Anybody doing *insert random quest here?* Guys, who wants to hear a joke? Any raid guilds recruiting for DPS?!

Mix that in with online/offline friend notifications, game/server messages, random whispers, NPC chatter (yeah, they can broadcast to local, too), quest dialogue/text... Ugh.

Guild chat, voice chat, and group/party chat is where people can really socialize and have actual conversations without getting a dang headache.

[Arielle Popstar]

21 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

A common criticism ..

• Visit a social location, dozens of carefully dressed avatars standing around in silence.
• Why are these people not all having an entertaining conversation that one might listen in on, and perhaps join in?
• Put all the same people together in group chat or discord and that conversation will happen and continue to happen.

This behavior is replicated on other platforms and MMOs.

In WoW for example, local chat is dead. Trade chat (a region wide chat where toons/avatars are not in close proximity) is very active. Guild chat (like our group chat) is also active. Dungeon chat is dead aside from purposeful information (don't go that way, wait for me a moment, etc).

Minecraft, people will randomly chat when miles apart .. but not when together without purpose.

 

People will chose not to engage with avatars in the same local vicinity unless all are personally known or they have no other choice. If conversation is forced to local, it will be brief and to the point. Local social among strangers can happen when centered around one or two instigators, the moment they leave, it ends.

Avatars are anti social.

No idea about WoW or other MMO's you talking about but certainly in Imvu and Opensim there was quite a lot more general conversations in Local. It has toned down somewhat in those places over the past few years, likely as the result of R/L heightened political and cultural tensions working their way into inworld conversations and the resulting conflicts that come as a result but still I see quite a bit more in those places then I do in SL. I do remember quite a bit more inworld chatter at clubs and events in SL back around 2009/2010 but that has dropped significantly to a point where I can be in world visiting 4-5 clubs over a few hours and not see one line of text in Local. 

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You also need to consider that there are a good number of people who find public speaking impossible and let's face it, local chat is public speaking, 

Good point, it really is public speaking.

Plus, it's like assuming this huge group of people is interested in my topic...I mean it's not realistic or even polite to assume so. Also, with one or two people it's easier to gauge whether this is a topic they want to speak about...as there is often silence if not interested and/or comments that are a bit easier to decipher.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You also need to consider that there are a good number of people who find public speaking impossible and let's face it, local chat is public speaking, 

It totally is.

I'm very chatty and sociable: no one has ever called me a wallflower. But if I'm in a public space with people I don't know, and especially if there is evidently already an existing community -- people know each other, trade in-jokes, and so on -- then, yes, I'm hesitant to just jump in. I'll usually listen and wait for a good opportunity to crack a joke, or something as a sort of "ice breaker."

It's also why I'll make a point of responding to someone new in a community or group of which I am already a part when they make a foray into public chat, because they often get overlooked or ignored. And I'm well aware of how crushing and depressing that can seem.

[Arielle Popstar]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Plus, it's like assuming this huge group of people is interested in my topic...I mean it's not realistic or even polite to assume so. Also, with one or two people it's easier to gauge whether this is a topic they want to speak about...as there is often silence if not interested and/or comments that are a bit easier to decipher.

How is that any different then posting in the forum where there is an even larger group of people reading the posts?

[Love Zhaoying]

Chatting up someone for hopes of getting L$ doesn't count as being social still, right?

[Coffee Pancake]

I strongly feel this is a human nature thing we're bumping up against, not a "Second Life / Linden Lab bad" or "introverts".

8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I do remember quite a bit more inworld chatter at clubs and events in SL back around 2009/2010 but that has dropped significantly to a point where I can be in world visiting 4-5 clubs over a few hours and not see one line of text in Local. 

and what has changed in that time ... 

 

 

The more "realistic" an Avatar, the more anti social it is.

[Sammy Huntsman]

I would say, just like us as humans, our avatars have the same personalities as us. 

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Plus, it's like assuming this huge group of people is interested in my topic...I mean it's not realistic or even polite to assume so. Also, with one or two people it's easier to gauge whether this is a topic they want to speak about...as there is often silence if not interested and/or comments that are a bit easier to decipher.

How is that any different then posting in the forum where there is an even larger group of people reading the posts?

I'm referring to initiating conversations in a group. Usually I just respond to conversations already in progress on the forum, and I find this much easier.

I'm proud of myself for actually starting threads now though on the forum, as that has been difficult to do in the past, but every once in awhile times past I would jump out there.  Sometimes I would even start shaking when beginning a new thread in the past, but now it's easy.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The more "realistic" an Avatar, the more anti social it is.

Why do you think that is? Pride/ego?  "I'm too hot to speak to the riff raff here?"

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

I would say, just like us as humans, our avatars have the same personalities as us. 

Exactly my point.

Make an avatar that is obviously a toy or a character, a cartoon or puppet.  behavior will change.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

Why do you think that is? Pride/ego?  "I'm too hot to speak to the riff raff here?"

I mean I disagree with the more realistic an avatar, the more antisocial it is. I feel like that is just subjective, I have met some unrealistic avatars, who are just as anti-social. 

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I strongly feel this is a human nature thing we're bumping up against, not a "Second Life / Linden Lab bad" or "introverts".

I agree, but then why are you saying that avatars are anti-social?

 

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Exactly my point.

Make an avatar that is obviously a toy or a character, a cartoon or puppet.  behavior will change.

I don't think the behaviour will change, I think that behaviors will stay the same. No matter if you make an unrealistic avatar or a realistic avatar. It's human behavior and humans are complicated. 

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

I agree, but then why are you saying that avatars are anti-social?

 

Because if the same people are presented with a way to talk with out an Avatar, like group chat or discord. They do. Constantly. 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I mean I disagree with the more realistic an avatar, the more antisocial it is. I feel like that is just subjective, I have met some unrealistic avatars, who are just as anti-social. 

One would imagine that the better an avatar looks, the more self confident it should be and willing too be involved in conversations. That is how it tends to work in R/L.