Stuff you're not buying, pending PBR?

[Modulated]

27 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

What kind of potato?  I'm not sure exactly what potato means other than older.   Can you give a little more info on potatoes as it was rumored people will need a gaming computer to run PBR.  

It means very very low end barely capable hardware.

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, EliseAnne85 said:

What kind of potato?  I'm not sure exactly what potato means other than older.   Can you give a little more info on potatoes as it was rumored people will need a gaming computer to run PBR.  

It doesn't require rumors or speculation: load up the project viewer on the ol' spud and take a spin around some of the PBR testing regions on Aditi. There's some mighty render-laggy content there, though, so depending where you rez-in it may not be representative of what you'll see on the main grid, at least not for a long, long time. In fact, it may be amusing to visit any of the non-PBR regions on Aditi (off the top of my head Morris and Sistiana and many others) just to see how that PBR viewer handles legacy content (looks pretty identical, but noticeably faster, especially with ALM enabled).

In that YouTube I linked above, Mojo also says that the main potential source of PBR-related lag will be too many reflection probes, which I think is controlled with this:

[EliseAnne85]

37 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

It doesn't require rumors or speculation: load up the project viewer on the ol' spud and take a spin around some of the PBR testing regions on Aditi. There's some mighty render-laggy content there, though, so depending where you rez-in it may not be representative

I have an old laptop so I was just wondering.  I'm not sure whether my old laptop would blow up or not?  My laptop has never run SL well at all.  I still use my laptop for stuffs other than SL, so I wouldn't really chance it.  I am kind of curious to try it, however.  lol

Edited March 11, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[AmeliaJ08]

5 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I have an old laptop so I was just wondering.  I'm not sure whether my old laptop would blow up or not?  My laptop has never run SL well at all.  I still use my laptop for stuffs other than SL, so I wouldn't really chance it.  I am kind of curious to try it, however.  lol

It is pretty dependent on GPU. If your laptop has a vaguely modern-ish GPU (dedicated graphics card) from the past few years you should be good to go with a lot of the content, it'll work on older hardware of course but all these new bells and whistles + a smooth experience with high frame rates needs reasonably modern graphics hardware.

What is your old laptop?

[EliseAnne85]

16 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

It is pretty dependent on GPU. If your laptop has a vaguely modern-ish GPU (dedicated graphics card) from the past few years you should be good to go with a lot of the content, it'll work on older hardware of course but all these new bells and whistles + a smooth experience with high frame rates needs reasonably modern graphics hardware.

What is your old laptop?

This is the best info I have on it right now as it's not plugged in.  It's this, I think:  (It's says HP 15, Intel Pentium Inside)  I'd have to plug it in to get more info on it.  I don't think it has dedicated graphics. 

****************************************************

Is the HP 15s good?

The HP 15-inch laptop is a well-built and attractive mid-range notebook with a tactile keyboard and a good array of ports. Additionally, it offers well-balanced audio and Ultrabook-level performance at a lower price than the majority of the competitors.

This is it, I think:   I have not updated Windows 11 in it though, my laptop has Windows 10.

https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-laptop-15-fc0047nr?&a=1&jumpid=cs_con_nc_ns&utm_medium=cs&utm_source=ga&utm_campaign=HP-Store_US_All_PS_All_Hgm_OPEX_Google_ALL_Smart-PLA_PCs&utm_content=sp&adid=535232761907&addisttype=u&7F1Z4UA%23ABA&cq_src=google_ads&cq_cmp=13987943907&cq_con=130783845331&cq_term=&cq_med=&cq_plac=&cq_net=u&cq_pos=&cq_plt=gp&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6rCgBhDVARIsAK1kGPJpaxOrNnsix1t4dLtBQqx8gIE51W5fy0LEZv8WibUmR_Uqa9N5SdAaAi45EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Edited March 11, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Jenna Huntsman]

18 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

It doesn't require rumors or speculation: load up the project viewer on the ol' spud and take a spin around some of the PBR testing regions on Aditi. There's some mighty render-laggy content there, though, so depending where you rez-in it may not be representative of what you'll see on the main grid, at least not for a long, long time. In fact, it may be amusing to visit any of the non-PBR regions on Aditi (off the top of my head Morris and Sistiana and many others) just to see how that PBR viewer handles legacy content (looks pretty identical, but noticeably faster, especially with ALM enabled).

In that YouTube I linked above, Mojo also says that the main potential source of PBR-related lag will be too many reflection probes, which I think is controlled with this:

This, although I'd recommend disabling shadows before disabling reflections.

[Conifer Dada]

Widening the question slightly, I won't be getting a mesh avatar until I see what the NUX ones are like. 

 

[Qie Niangao]

56 minutes ago, Conifer Dada said:

Widening the question slightly, I won't be getting a mesh avatar until I see what the NUX ones are like. 

This seems wise. Or at least I won't touch a no-mod mesh avatar now. It's likely some of those creator cartels are not going to adapt fast enough to NUX- (and PBR-) related changes. No point paying thousands of L$s for stuff that will just junk-up the inventory in a few months.

Of course some mesh avatar (and head) juggernauts can survive out of pure inertia, and they'll be fine even if they cling to existing appliers and take years to update to glTF materials.

[Andred Darwin]

21 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

It doesn't require rumors or speculation: load up the project viewer on the ol' spud and take a spin around some of the PBR testing regions on Aditi. There's some mighty render-laggy content there, though, so depending where you rez-in it may not be representative of what you'll see on the main grid, at least not for a long, long time. In fact, it may be amusing to visit any of the non-PBR regions on Aditi (off the top of my head Morris and Sistiana and many others) just to see how that PBR viewer handles legacy content (looks pretty identical, but noticeably faster, especially with ALM enabled).

In that YouTube I linked above, Mojo also says that the main potential source of PBR-related lag will be too many reflection probes, which I think is controlled with this:

Right now is the best time to try out the new viewer while is still under development, not only to try to the new materials at ADITI, but see how your current objects display and work in-world... colors and scene rendering is really different when you choose ACES Hill, ACES Narkowicz and Linear, Linear is the closest to current viewer... the devs need as much feedback as we can give, cause is not lot like they are "wandering" around the grid to really see it ... make sure to share your findings at JIRA (there is also the official SL Discord channel #content-features, where you may also find links to the latest nightly builds in pinned messages, which includes the latest fixes... ).

Edited March 12, 2023 by Andred Darwin

[Lewis Luminos]

I don't fully understand what PBR will change (other than adding stuff with reflections on them) and I don't know if my PC will be powerful enough to render it anyway, so no, it's not affecting purchases for me at all.

[Love Zhaoying]

37 minutes ago, Lewis Luminos said:

I don't fully understand what PBR will change (other than adding stuff with reflections on them) and I don't know if my PC will be powerful enough to render it anyway, so no, it's not affecting purchases for me at all.

If I understand correctly, it will also give a slightly different / better "3-D" effect to textures than the current materials.

I hope someone confirms or denies my statement - I only read 1/2 of all the posts on the Forum, and have low comprehension on 1/2 of those!

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

On 3/10/2023 at 5:21 PM, Qie Niangao said:

But much worse, shine highlights and reflections. They're going to look as primitive as 2D cardboard cut-outs pasted on the world, just completely wrong when the viewing angle changes—which happens for everything when the cam moves, but for attachments it happens whenever the avatar animates, even with a fixed cam.

Yup. I'm gonna have to do some serious unbaking when the time comes.

[Ceka Cianci]

57 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

If I understand correctly, it will also give a slightly different / better "3-D" effect to textures than the current materials.

I hope someone confirms or denies my statement - I only read 1/2 of all the posts on the Forum, and have low comprehension on 1/2 of those!

Medhue did a short video on it awhile back which was pretty informative. I don't know if I already showed this one to you or not in another thread.. I know I showed someone . hehehe

 

[Love Zhaoying]

46 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Yup. I'm gonna have to do some serious unbaking when the time comes.

Is sarcasm? That looks fantastic, if it is "current" content!

[AmeliaJ08]

On 3/11/2023 at 10:20 PM, EliseAnne85 said:

This is the best info I have on it right now as it's not plugged in.  It's this, I think:  (It's says HP 15, Intel Pentium Inside)  I'd have to plug it in to get more info on it.  I don't think it has dedicated graphics. 

****************************************************

Is the HP 15s good?

The HP 15-inch laptop is a well-built and attractive mid-range notebook with a tactile keyboard and a good array of ports. Additionally, it offers well-balanced audio and Ultrabook-level performance at a lower price than the majority of the competitors.

This is it, I think:   I have not updated Windows 11 in it though, my laptop has Windows 10.

https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-laptop-15-fc0047nr?&a=1&jumpid=cs_con_nc_ns&utm_medium=cs&utm_source=ga&utm_campaign=HP-Store_US_All_PS_All_Hgm_OPEX_Google_ALL_Smart-PLA_PCs&utm_content=sp&adid=535232761907&addisttype=u&7F1Z4UA%23ABA&cq_src=google_ads&cq_cmp=13987943907&cq_con=130783845331&cq_term=&cq_med=&cq_plac=&cq_net=u&cq_pos=&cq_plt=gp&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6rCgBhDVARIsAK1kGPJpaxOrNnsix1t4dLtBQqx8gIE51W5fy0LEZv8WibUmR_Uqa9N5SdAaAi45EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Really hard to find the specs on that chip! it's the GPU performance that matters most, it's probably capable but it's likely on the weaker end of things and a little old. Depends how much you value smoothness! most people are used to a choppy SL experience though. This is the Athlon Gold 7220U: https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Athlon-Gold-7220U-Processor-Benchmarks-and-Specs.655023.0.html

From what I can find this is the integrated GPU in that CPU (really an APU but I'm waffling): https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-610M-GPU-Benchmarks-and-Specs.654293.0.html

From that we can determine it'll probably perform about the same as a Nvidia GT630M... which isn't good, it'll work but expect <15FPS constantly most places in SL.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by AmeliaJ08

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

50 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Is sarcasm? That looks fantastic, if it is "current" content!

Thanks

But!...

It still looks unnatural and weird when you cam around it, because the reflections are supposed to change depending on your camera angle, and here they simply don't. It does work somewhat, when you surround it by a few light sources, because I added some Materials shiny to the candelabra's surface in-world. Depending on the shape (tubular, some small details) you can get away with it, but with larger, flatter, and more even shapes, this baked reflection + shiny Materials trick doesn't look nice at all.

PBR will change all that. Especially for shinies. So, not sarcasm at all. For PBR I'l have to completely change my workflow. No more highlight & reflection baking (that'll save some time), but definiltely uploading triple to quintuple quadruple the amount of textures needed to achieve the shiny. [Update] I see that metallic and roughness are merged into one, as green and blue channels. That's clever.

Speaking of shiny: let's not overdo it, folks.

Imagine your mom-in-law who just discovered the word processor and is now typing her heart out, using a new font and style for each new line, so the end result looks like a ransom letter. In other words: please please please, don't make waxy surfaces, unlaquered wood and natural rock and most other surfaces around us shiny. It's unnatural and not necessary.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Arduenn Schwartzman

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Thanks

But!...

It still looks unnatural and weird when you cam around it, because the reflections are supposed to change depending on your camera angle, and here they simply don't. It does work somewhat, when you surround it by a few light sources, because I added some Materials shiny to the candelabra's surface in-world. Depending on the shape (tubular, some small details) you can get away with it, but with larger, flatter, and more even shapes, this baked reflection + shiny Materials trick doesn't look nice at all.

PBR will change all that. Especially for shinies. So, not sarcasm at all. For PBR I'l have to completely change my workflow. No more highlight & reflection baking (that'll save some time), but definiltely uploading triple to quintuple quadruple the amount of textures needed to achieve the shiny. [Update] I see that metallic and roughness are merged into one, as green and blue channels. That's clever.

Speaking of shiny: let's not overdo it, folks.

Imagine your mom-in-law who just discovered the word processor and is now typing her heart out, using a new font and style for each new line, so the end result looks like a ransom letter. In other words: please please please, don't make waxy surfaces, unlaquered wood and natural rock and most other surfaces around us shiny. It's unnatural and not necessary.

Similar to "prim shadows" when Shadows are enabled...?

[EliseAnne85]

40 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Really hard to find the specs on that chip! it's the GPU performance that matters most, it's probably capable but it's likely on the weaker end of things and a little old. Depends how much you value smoothness! most people are used to a choppy SL experience though. This is the Athlon Gold 7220U: https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Athlon-Gold-7220U-Processor-Benchmarks-and-Specs.655023.0.html

From what I can find this is the integrated GPU in that CPU (really an APU but I'm waffling): https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-610M-GPU-Benchmarks-and-Specs.654293.0.html

From that we can determine it'll probably perform about the same as a Nvidia GT630M... which isn't good, it'll work but expect <15FPS constantly most places in SL.

 

 

Oh, thanks for looking that up.  

Speaking of old, I bought that exact same laptop eight years ago at least and they are still selling the exact same one eight years later.  I find that amazing in technology terms.  Mine is in pristine condition because I keep it in a case in the closet much of the time.  I bought it to use in the hospital after a surgery and the administration office logged me into their wifi somehow.  However, I did go on SL with my HP 15 laptop and it runs likes a snail.  My main computer is a desktop.

[Qie Niangao]

45 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Similar to "prim shadows" when Shadows are enabled...?

Similar, but the shadows only change how "wrong" they are when the light source changes. Reflections (and shininess in general) are also affected by the camera angle, and by motion of the object being viewed. 

One sample you may recognize from the Lab Gab video[*] is on Aditi (only viewable with the project viewer, of course) at secondlife://Aditi/secondlife/Rumpus%20Room%204/182/160/24 containing assets from an Intel graphics pipeline demonstration. There's a mesh knight wearing shining armor that reflects stuff in the scene, evident as one's cam moves around and changes the viewing angle toward the reflecting surface. Now imagine that knight as an animesh NPC—or a "real" avatar dressed for medieval roleplay: every frame of animation changes the reflection, even with a fixed cam.

Now this isn't all that different from what we have with legacy materials. We don't get such true reflections, but the shininess definitely follows motion of cam and/or the viewed surface—iff the viewer has ALM enabled. With PBR-capable viewers, ALM is always enabled. (Or so one would hope.) To be sure, "baked reflection" latex clothing (for example) already looks pretty funky in an ALM-enabled viewer; PBR won't really make it look any worse than it already does. The difference with PBR is the clothing's creator can be sure it's looking funky for everybody.

_____________
[* or maybe it was the SL University video? One of the Lab's recent YouTube videos anyway.]

Edited March 14, 2023 by Qie Niangao
NV agreement. Jeez.

[Love Zhaoying]

30 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

iff the viewer has ALM enabled. With PBR-capable viewers, ALM is always enabled

Ah, I remember the moaning, groaning, and gnashing of teeth now over "ALM always being enabled". Lulz!

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Now this isn't all that different from what we have with legacy materials. We don't get such true reflections, but the shininess definitely follows motion of cam and/or the viewed surface—iff the viewer has ALM enabled. With PBR-capable viewers, ALM is always enabled. (Or so one would hope.) To be sure, "baked reflection" latex clothing (for example) already looks pretty funky in an ALM-enabled viewer; PBR won't really make it look any worse than it already does. The difference with PBR is the clothing's creator can be sure it's looking funky for everybody.

Mojo made it sound like ALM would remain optional in Lab Gab:

15:15 and a question that keeps coming up do  residents need to have higher end computers  to see PBR content and what if they don't  have higher end computers what can they do they  don't need higher end computers um but I will say that there can be expensive Parts um the most  expensive thing are these reflection probes  and so should people have any kind of performance  issues just turn off Reflections and that will  kind of basically get the lighting system back  to where it was as it was in the old viewers  

Edited March 14, 2023 by Arielle Popstar
Added Link

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

51 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Mojo made it sound like ALM would remain optional in Lab Gab:

It may have sounded that way but ALM is permanently enabled,

52 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

just turn off Reflections and that will  kind of basically get the lighting system back  to where it was as it was in the old viewers

is in reference to the fact that you can enable/disable reflections, shadows, etc. when using ALM which does give similar performance/visual results to using a non-ALM viewer but it will still be using the new PBR/ALM renderer.

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

[...] so should people have any kind of performance  issues just turn off Reflections and that will  kind of basically get the lighting system back  to where it was as it was in the old viewers  

(I showed a picture of turning Reflections off in the project viewer, just up the page. It may be informative to play with that project viewer to see its performance on familiar regions on Aditi. The PBR test regions, though, are cluttered with strangeness, so I'm not sure performance at those locations is very representative of what we should expect. I had no problems but I always run with full shadows anyway.)

[Rick Nightingale]

Does anyone have any inside information on when PBR might go live?

I'm not particularly waiting to buy things, but I do have some projects in Blender that would really benefit from PBR. Not sure if I should spend days/weeks texturing them 'traditionally' (my weak point - takes me ages of hard work to be content) if PBR might be just around the corner.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Rick Nightingale

[Janet Voxel]

1 hour ago, Rick Nightingale said:

Does anyone have any inside information on when PBR might go live?

I'm not particularly waiting to buy things, but I do have some projects in Blender that would really benefit from PBR. Not sure if I should spend days/weeks texturing them 'traditionally' (my weak point - takes me ages of hard work to be content) if PBR might be just around the corner.

The beauty of the pbr viewer is you can save your relevant bakes in a gltf file while you’re modeling and just have them ready for when it goes live. Then come back and upload them. The only time it really takes is the amount of time to bake your maps. That’s how streamlined it is.