A Positive Brainstorming / Suggestion Box Thread - Ideas for Improving Second Life Sociability, Usability and Retention

[Ayashe Ninetails]

I'll try to keep this as positive as possible, Love. No guarantees. Don't feed me to the lions if I fail. 🦁

I think SL should figure out what it wants to be. I agree with the posts that say building is definitely more complicated in this here 2023 than it was when some of us started. That's totally fine, but then that eliminates those of us who loved to build but don't know 3D. That (and avatar customization, which managed to survive, sorta) are what brought me to SL in the first place. I don't build here anymore. I have to go elsewhere for that. I can push mesh objects around and decorate homes, but that doesn't quite scratch the same itch.

Building games (I knowwwww SL is not a gaaaaaaaame) are hugely popular right now. Especially the ones with multiplayer - do I even have mention Minecraft and Valheim? Those games have a lot more to do than build, too, but if you crawl through Twitch and YouTube, you'll find no shortage of people designing things, making building tutorials, and showing off their builds on places like Reddit. SL is prettier by far IMO, but still! I'm jelly (not really - I play Minecraft on occasion).

For me personally, SL has shifted from being a massively creative platform to being somewhere I come to take pictures of stuff other people made. Others might not feel the same, especially if they're here for the more social features (another area that needs some love, too, as we all know), but for me, it's why I quit for near a decade (right around when I realized I could no longer keep up with the building crowd and would have to shut down my in-world store). I came back eventually and got hooked on photography and playing with my avie again, but I don't really have much desire to log in much anymore unless I want to style a new avatar. 

Okay so a suggestion - if LL wants in-world building to continue to be part of the platform, we need better tools. I'm not technical in the slightest, so I don't know the tech side of how to make that work and how to make it look good alongside mesh, so don't ask me 😜. I'll let someone else come up with that. But if casual, hobby builders are still want they want, we need stuffs! Premade wall tiles, floor tiles, fences, doors, structures, ramps, etc. organized in a menu we can pull from might help. Or a tool to draw such things (Sims-like). 

Random screenie of what I'm talmbout Willis (from Satisfactory, but plenty of games have this kind of thing):

 

Disclaimer: I know I'm asking for a LOT and it's 1000% unlikely to happen. But Love said he wanted ideas, so...! Yeet it into the trash if you must.

[benchthis]

43 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Why? To show new people how things were built in the olden days?

Learning the fundamentals of 3D building in Second Life from the Ivory Tower Library of Primitives helped me better understand and prepared me for the mental pain of learning to use Blender and other 3D building software. No way I could have modeled in blender without first mastering the modules at Ivory Tower. Scripting too. Everythings there. I highly recommend if you are wanting to learn how to get started building, give the Natoma region a go.

It seemed like a natural step for me to learn how building works in second life and then bring in 3rd party building software.

[Charlotte Bartlett]

58 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Why? To show new people how things were built in the olden days?

Actually yes...
We haven't built in prims for 11 years plus now.  However, that building in prims is what spawned a generation of amateur content creators who did branch out but remain creating for SL.

People do like to still mod things and create.   I think it's a reasonable to encourage it and for those who are genuinely set up to create it's a fun way to get introduced to the possibilities (and retains the user in SL).   I had a recent customer who created a mod of our buildings and it was amazing.  So amazing in fact she worked with me and we created a mesh version.  For the first time (in many years) it was lovely to actually collaborate in world to create something.   Those old days of building together and creating a space is really an amazing retainer for low barrier to entry content creation.  Something that we could still celebrate and use for the benefit of retaining users within Second Life.

I would add to this idea for LL to add a few extra prim options - planes, the ability to "mirror" etc to encourage more in world building and modding communities.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Charlotte Bartlett

[Love Zhaoying]

4 pages so far without spilt blood or tears, not shabby.

[Love Zhaoying]

17 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I'll try to keep this as positive as possible, Love. No guarantees. Don't feed me to the lions if I fail. 🦁

I think SL should figure out what it wants to be. I agree with the posts that say building is definitely more complicated in this here 2023 than it was when some of us started. That's totally fine, but then that eliminates those of us who loved to build but don't know 3D. That (and avatar customization, which managed to survive, sorta) are what brought me to SL in the first place. I don't build here anymore. I have to go elsewhere for that. I can push mesh objects around and decorate homes, but that doesn't quite scratch the same itch.

Building games (I knowwwww SL is not a gaaaaaaaame) are hugely popular right now. Especially the ones with multiplayer - do I even have mention Minecraft and Valheim? Those games have a lot more to do than build, too, but if you crawl through Twitch and YouTube, you'll find no shortage of people designing things, making building tutorials, and showing off their builds on places like Reddit. SL is prettier by far IMO, but still! I'm jelly (not really - I play Minecraft on occasion).

For me personally, SL has shifted from being a massively creative platform to being somewhere I come to take pictures of stuff other people made. Others might not feel the same, especially if they're here for the more social features (another area that needs some love, too, as we all know), but for me, it's why I quit for near a decade (right around when I realized I could no longer keep up with the building crowd and would have to shut down my in-world store). I came back eventually and got hooked on photography and playing with my avie again, but I don't really have much desire to log in much anymore unless I want to style a new avatar. 

Okay so a suggestion - if LL wants in-world building to continue to be part of the platform, we need better tools. I'm not technical in the slightest, so I don't know the tech side of how to make that work and how to make it look good alongside mesh, so don't ask me 😜. I'll let someone else come up with that. But if casual, hobby builders are still want they want, we need stuffs! Premade wall tiles, floor tiles, fences, doors, structures, ramps, etc. organized in a menu we can pull from might help. Or a tool to draw such things (Sims-like). 

Random screenie of what I'm talmbout Willis (from Satisfactory, but plenty of games have this kind of thing):

 

Disclaimer: I know I'm asking for a LOT and it's 1000% unlikely to happen. But Love said he wanted ideas, so...! Yeet it into the trash if you must.

Sounds good to me!

On topic, positive..suggestions..

Hugs!

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Sounds good to me!

On topic, positive..suggestions..

Hugs!

Yaaaaaaaaay, I did it. Hugs!

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Yaaaaaaaaay, I did it. Hugs!

  I'm trying hard to keep it positive because, the negativity and bickering both takes things off-topic, and kills threads that could otherwise do some good!
  You never know, someone could file a JIRA or go to a meeting with one of the ideas!!

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

  I'm trying hard to keep it positive because, the negativity and bickering both takes things off-topic, and kills threads that could otherwise do some good!
  You never know, someone could file a JIRA or go to a meeting with one of the ideas!!

 

A noble cause. Good luck with that. 

*gigglesnorts*

 

I'm just teasing. You never know - maybe some of this stuff we're asking for is in the works already. Probably not, but I'm an optimist. Shush. 😄

[Love Zhaoying]

If you notice, oft-repeated stuff is not coming up like, "fix search! gimme mobile! fix ads! fix profiles!"

People are using their imaginations!

 

[MoiraKathleen]

An integrated live calendar which shows all of the currently existing in-world building classes.  I know I haven't been to all the places which offer building classes on a regular basis, but the ones I have been to have been at Builders Brewery (including a series of classes using Blender), Happy Hippo Building School and Caledon Oxbridge University.  There could be LM's next to the calendar for building places that have tutorials but not classes (like the Ivory Tower and the place that teaches about using particles - can't remember it's name right now).  I think if all the classes being offered were displayed on a single calendar,  people would be surprised at how much is available even now. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

4 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I never went there, don't recall hearing about it back then.

2008

https://secondlife.com/destination/builders-brewery

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 hours ago, benchthis said:

That's a cool place for team building building for sure. Great suggestion. I'm not sure how strict their group is as far as willingness to grow with new people around learning and doing crazy things in the process. Not sure how clicky they are. Cool region/s though, have not been there in awhile, last time last year they were moving things around. Be worth a check out later on see what they are up to. 

https://calendar.google.com/calendar/u/0/embed?src=buildersbrewery@gmail.com&ctz=America/Los_Angeles

[Akane Nacht]

6 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Premade wall tiles, floor tiles, fences, doors, structures, ramps, etc. organized in a menu we can pull from might help.

Like how we build in Conan Exiles. Basically it's fancy digital LEGO. I'd love that as an option in SL tbh 😁

and a single continuous map you can gallop across, but I won't hold my breath

[animats]

9 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

If LL wants in-world building to continue to be part of the platform, we need better tools.

The major competitors all have integrated building tools. Telling people to use Blender is just too much.

SL might need two completely different building tools - one for objects, and one for clothing and avatars. The one for clothing and avatars probably needs to be comparable to Marvelous Designer, but with better integration. Maybe some web based tool, such as Tailornova. It should be semi in world; that is, it runs inside the viewer and generates local objects in world that only you see, and, once happy with them, you can upload. Others see "editing appearance", or something like that. A nice feature would be to be able to make a clothing dummy from an avatar, to give you something to work on.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 hours ago, animats said:

The major competitors all have integrated building tools. Telling people to use Blender is just too much.

SL might need two completely different building tools - one for objects, and one for clothing and avatars. The one for clothing and avatars probably needs to be comparable to Marvelous Designer, but with better integration. Maybe some web based tool, such as Tailornova. It should be semi in world; that is, it runs inside the viewer and generates local objects in world that only you see, and, once happy with them, you can upload. Others see "editing appearance", or something like that. A nice feature would be to be able to make a clothing dummy from an avatar, to give you something to work on.

This certainly seems like some "low-hanging fruit" that would make a big difference!  I've seen several comments in this thread that "prims are dead" (seems a bit extreme, to me). 

I saw comments a lot during the Sansar ramp-up about Marvelous Designer - would that be "licensable" for Linden Lab to use?

[Ceka Cianci]

9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

This certainly seems like some "low-hanging fruit" that would make a big difference!  I've seen several comments in this thread that "prims are dead" (seems a bit extreme, to me). 

I saw comments a lot during the Sansar ramp-up about Marvelous Designer - would that be "licensable" for Linden Lab to use?

I would say, at one time the draw was, being able to create most of the things inside the world to create our world.. If most of the creating is going on outside of the world, then it's just creating things somewhere else for here..

So rather than spending  that time in here being creative, it's spent outside..  Creating in here half the time was fun because, you could be standing around with others trying things out or learning from each other in real time as you see these things coming to life or being  in the atmosphere on site..

I think there is a lot of value in trying to keep people inside more than outside.. Honestly, it's probably become too big of a thing for them to be able to get back though.. That or there might be more fruit having things how they are now..

The less there is to do in here, the less draw there is to be in here.

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I would say, at one time the draw was, being able to create most of the things inside the world to create our world.. If most of the creating is going on outside of the world, then it's just creating things somewhere else for here..

So rather than spending  that time in here being creative, it's spent outside..  Creating in here half the time was fun because, you could be standing around with others trying things out or learning from each other in real time as you see these things coming to life or being  in the atmosphere on site..

I think there is a lot of value in trying to keep people inside more than outside.. Honestly, it's probably become too big of a thing for them to be able to get back though.. That or there might be more fruit having things how they are now..

The less there is to do in here, the less draw there is to be in here.

Perhaps...one of the ways to draw and retain the "younger" crowd, who should IMHO be a "target" demographic, is to make it easier for them to create things. That means among other things, that they don't have to continually put money into SL (buy stuff) but can make stuff instead.  As time goes on, their personal economies may change where they can and want to "buy stuff"..

I think most people are now in the "buy stuff" category because it's so hard to "make stuff".

[Ceka Cianci]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Perhaps...one of the ways to draw and retain the "younger" crowd, who should IMHO be a "target" demographic, is to make it easier for them to create things. That means among other things, that they don't have to continually put money into SL (buy stuff) but can make stuff instead.  As time goes on, their personal economies may change where they can and want to "buy stuff"..

I think most people are now in the "buy stuff" category because it's so hard to "make stuff".

Honestly, I don't think there is a younger crowd for SL anymore..Not a big enough of one anyways..Not with how user unfriendly SL is.. Younger people just aren't in the same world that a lot of us were where you had to dive in deep on programs. Most things are buttons to click, rather than key settings and typing in the numbers to adjust settings  and troubleshooting most of the way.. Which SL is a lot of troubleshooting and always figuring out every single step you take.

I want to go skateboarding.. Ok well first you have to do this ,then go get that, then learn how this works ,then if this happens you need to do this work around.. hehehe

I just see how things are so user friendly nowadays, that it's hard not to picture someone younger, not being frustrated  right out the door  when they come here..

[Love Zhaoying]

21 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I want to go skateboarding.. Ok well first you have to do this ,then go get that, then learn how this works ,then if this happens you need to do this work around.. hehehe

At the same time, there are "free skateboards" out there to be had - just not necessarily easy to find.  

I wish SL was so user-friendly we could steal the young userbase from Roblox! (Not that Roblox makes money, or so I hear.)

I bring it up because, if Roblox (for example) is where the young people are going..then "let's do that", whatever "that" is..

Potentially Unpopular idea: Bring back the "Teen Grid"!

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

8 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

Like how we build in Conan Exiles. Basically it's fancy digital LEGO. I'd love that as an option in SL tbh 😁

Yes exactly! I could name like...40 games off the top of my head that utilize "plop some components down and build" building systems like that. I won't do that, but I'll name a few that are pretty popular (and many are multiplayer) - Raft, Satisfactory, Valheim, Minecraft, Grounded, Rust, Ark: Survival Evolved, and No Man's Sky.

 

6 hours ago, animats said:

The major competitors all have integrated building tools. Telling people to use Blender is just too much.

Yuuuuup, integrated building tools are very "in" right now, across the board. And people love tinkering with them.

 

6 hours ago, animats said:

SL might need two completely different building tools - one for objects, and one for clothing and avatars. The one for clothing and avatars probably needs to be comparable to Marvelous Designer, but with better integration. Maybe some web based tool, such as Tailornova. It should be semi in world; that is, it runs inside the viewer and generates local objects in world that only you see, and, once happy with them, you can upload. Others see "editing appearance", or something like that. A nice feature would be to be able to make a clothing dummy from an avatar, to give you something to work on.

I like that! Keep the ideas on this coming, but I will say - I'm okay with the tools I'm referencing not being available for more challenging builds. I doubt it's possible to make jewelry, furniture, hair, mesh clothing, grass, vehicles, pets, etc. etc. with a simplified integrated system like I'm suggesting. My idea could very easily apply to homes and commercial buildings, farms, gardens, barns, large structures, bridges, etc. Keep it focused on a mesh-like system of pre-made walls, floors, roof tiles, doors, stairs, ramps, foundations, pillars, etc. that will look slightly better than sitting in a big ole prim box and will fit in well with objects created in proper 3D tools. That way, hobby builders like me can still have fun with group builds and small projects and designing our own spaces, while the pros can continue on making the rest of the world gorgeous.

I'm totally fine with not being able to fully model a whole horse or my own clothing in-world. 😄 

Oh wait! Speaking of clothing...there IS a way to kinda sorta bring some of that in-world, too. Disney Dreamlight Valley (shut up) has a system where you can take basic garments in white (tees, tanks, dresses, jeans, shoes, hats, coats, jackets, etc.) and use their in-world tools to color them and texture them. Slap on a pre-made design, bam - you just made an outfit. A super basic system like that might be good for the newbies, until they're ready to spring for real mesh clothing. Tie that in with NUX - then you aren't having to worry about the garments not fitting every single third-party body.

[benchthis]

36 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

39 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I would say, at one time the draw was, being able to create most of the things inside the world to create our world.. If most of the creating is going on outside of the world, then it's just creating things somewhere else for here..

So rather than spending  that time in here being creative, it's spent outside..  Creating in here half the time was fun because, you could be standing around with others trying things out or learning from each other in real time as you see these things coming to life or being  in the atmosphere on site..

I think there is a lot of value in trying to keep people inside more than outside.. Honestly, it's probably become too big of a thing for them to be able to get back though.. That or there might be more fruit having things how they are now..

The less there is to do in here, the less draw there is to be in here.

Expand  

Perhaps...one of the ways to draw and retain the "younger" crowd, who should IMHO be a "target" demographic, is to make it easier for them to create things. That means among other things, that they don't have to continually put money into SL (buy stuff) but can make stuff instead.  As time goes on, their personal economies may change where they can and want to "buy stuff"..

I think most people are now in the "buy stuff" category because it's so hard to "make stuff".

It's difficult to make stuff in world because, there is a lack of organized easy to find inworld building resources for new people to learn from in the short window of time they are demoing second life, before they give up and learn and add content somewhere else. If there were a way for SL to use the open source code for advanced building in SL that would the asset to focus on imo. Pair that with bubble popups tips as mentioned from someone in another topic would help.

Improving the build tool system would never keep me from buying stuff on the marketplace and in world. I buy things I don't want to build all the time. My primary focus in world is creation. I'd like to see more octagonal shapes in the build tools. The prims can be modified which is really cool, I agree having array of mesh shapes in the build tools that can be constantly updated so the experiece always stays fresh, they don't have to smart like prims, maybe some PBR pretty objects to place? 

Prims, prims can do so much, maybe build tools could use a way to show off/display via maybe after a cube is rezzed a menu will pop up with all the ways the cube can be shaped and reshaped into different prim types. 

How much attention would SL get if they added a new mesh builder in the world, even if it's pay to "upload" persay. Maybe with that system users can use the mesh build tool to create in world and people can see but to unlock the copy and transfer for the finished project it would have to be uploaded to the whatever so lindens can get their fee$. 

With the mesh tool builder could add all the cool shapes and roof pitches, railroad tracks, road templates, common objects and shapes that will slowly but surely shape this world to be more optimized and efficient.

 

[EliseAnne85]

55 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I bring it up because, if Roblox (for example) is where the young people are going..then "let's do that", whatever "that" is..

Potentially Unpopular idea: Bring back the "Teen Grid"!

 

Bring back the teen grid?  Is there enough money in the teen arena to make money?  Roblox is a lot of games from what I understand, which is probably next to not much.

I think they should hit the 20-30 somethings with something like ONLINE NOW where adverts to come and meet and chat so-and-so with {these specified characteristics put in the ad} are in a real time feed inworld and call that part of SL "ONLINE NOW".  

Edited February 13, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[benchthis]

58 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I want to go skateboarding.. Ok well first you have to do this ,then go get that, then learn how this works ,then if this happens you need to do this work around.. hehehe

You have to have degree in engineering to do that. 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Perhaps...one of the ways to draw and retain the "younger" crowd, who should IMHO be a "target" demographic, is to make it easier for them to create things. That means among other things, that they don't have to continually put money into SL (buy stuff) but can make stuff instead.  As time goes on, their personal economies may change where they can and want to "buy stuff"..

I think most people are now in the "buy stuff" category because it's so hard to "make stuff".

Allows the people to divert more money to land rather than buying content. Sandboxes are all well and good but the returns are usually measured in hours so it is nice to have a little land you can place creations on more permanently.

[Love Zhaoying]

26 minutes ago, benchthis said:

1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I want to go skateboarding.. Ok well first you have to do this ,then go get that, then learn how this works ,then if this happens you need to do this work around.. hehehe

You have to have degree in engineering to do that. 

A skateboard is a type of "vehicle" with usually, a certain animation pose.

There are probably free "skateboard scripts" out there, or wiki entries with vehicles that act like skateboards.

Of course, me being a scripter - I have to ask:

How would I make this easier for someone else?

Answer: Add an "Object Type" of "Vehicle", with a selection of "Vehicle type" (which is really different parameters on the Vehicle LSL script commands).  Then the Animation is the only thing left.

Just an idea..