superpeeve Oh my Gawd! - Totally unOfficial Pet Peeve Thread.

[Luna Bliss]

Pet Peeve:  Some don't realize people can change through experience, and in fact it's through experience that one can know the deepest realities (as opposed to intellectual knowledge, book learning).

[Seicher Rae]

Peeve: Posers. Of all ilks. Especially fake Virtue Signalers.

[Luna Bliss]

Pet Peeve:  My brother lives in Florida and was in the direct path of this hurricane, and I have not heard from him. Well, this is heading into 'beyond pet peeve' territory. Maybe I'll make the pet peeve the fact that so many in the US are spread so far apart and detached from their families.

[Sid Nagy]

2 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

ETA:  But things like group notices, descriptions, omg product inserts, and other things? Get a proofreader.

NO, no, no.
Second Life is an international community. There is no entitlement for perfect English.
A good effort from the international community to make themselves understood in English is more than an excellent job already.
Peeve: It is (mainly) the American population who is simply not used to deal with people who speak other languages than their own.
The world is bigger than the States. Just saying.  😁

In Dutch we don't have different words for 'then' and 'than' for instance. They are both 'dan' in my native tongue. I do my best, but I'm sure I misjudge the situation an awful lot of times and get them mixed up. So be it. Everybody who reads it knows what I'm saying, whether than or then.

Only legal documents, job applications and official publications in RL need to be 100% correctly spelling and grammar wise IMHO.
When I had to make a publication for our school, I always asked someone to proof read, even when it was in Dutch, but for SL?  Sorry, but that will not happen. Not even in a million years.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Sid Nagy
Spelling and grammar. It has to be English, no doubt about that. :)

[Seicher Rae]

22 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

NO, no, no.
Second Life is an international community. There is no entitlement for perfect English.
A good effort from the international community to make themselves understood in English is more than an excellent job already.
Peeve: It is (mainly) the American population who is simply not used to deal with people who speak other languages than their own.
The world is bigger than the States. Just saying.  😁

In Dutch we don't have different words for 'then' and 'than' for instance. They are both 'dan' in my native tongue. I do my best, but I'm sure I misjudge an awful lot of times and get them mixed up. So be it. Everybody who reads it knows what I'm saying, whether than or then.

Read again, Sid. You possibly missed my point, although since you quoted the right spot, maybe not? I'm not very judgey about "proper English" in places like the forum, IM, local, email, etc etc etc. In those situations I am amazed at how fluent so many people are.

I AM judgey when it is a public notice, meant for a (presumably) international audience. If it is a notecard for your product, when 75% of your clients speak English. Etc. If I were a content creator and for some reason were targeting a Japanese crowd, I would make darn sure if I was attempting to speak to them in Japanese it would be 100% good Japanese.

I know what you mean about SOME native speakers being Holier-Than-Thou about grammar, especially in conversational situations. I haven't noticed Americans being worse than other native speakers, but there are more Americans in SL. ETA: In fact the Holier folks that spring immediately to MY mind are all some variant of UK.

For many people, myself included, it is the access to so many people of all languages that is one of the biggest draws of places like SL. 

If you read anything other than "official things written in English should be proofread" then you misread what I was saying.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Seicher Rae

[Love Zhaoying]

19 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

NO, no, no.
Second Life is an international community. There is no entitlement for perfect English.
A good effort from the international community to make themselves understood in English is more than an excellent job already.
Peeve: It is (mainly) the American population who is simply not used to deal with people who speak other languages than their own.
The world is bigger than the States. Just saying.  😁

In Dutch we don't have different words for 'then' and 'than' for instance. They are both 'dan' in my native tongue. I do my best, but I'm sure I misjudge the situation an awful lot of times and get them mixed up. So be it. Everybody who reads it knows what I'm saying, whether than or then.

Only legal documents, job applications and official publications in RL need to be 100% correctly spelling and grammar wise IMHO.
When I had to make a publication for our school, I always asked someone to proof read, even when it was in Dutch, but for SL?  Sorry, but that will not happen. Not even in a million years.

Agree on all this..but nobody says a Second Life "employer" cannot make "good spelling and grammar" a requirement for employment.

[Sid Nagy]

Anyhow, if there are people out there who boycott my products because I have some spelling or grammar flaws in one of my notecards, so be it. Please spend your dollar elsewhere then\than? No hard feelings.
It is only Second Life you know. It should be fun.
Grammar and spelling police is so the eighties.

This is really a longterm peeve for me.
ESL people doing their best should be totally enough when it comes to SL (and the forums).

Edited August 30, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Anyhow, if there are people out there who boycott my products because I have some spelling or grammar flaws in one of my notecards, so be it.

Personally, I was thinking more of people who have no communications skills whatsoever.  You know, they can kind of do lolspeak.  Like posts we see here that are all run-on sentences in a single giant paragraph. It's not really so much as "English" as in, the ability to communicate. That's what I meant, sorry if I did not communicate it well at all.

 

[Seicher Rae]

14 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Anyhow, if there are people out there who boycott my products because I have some spelling or grammar flaws in one of my notecards, so be it. Please spend your dollar elsewhere then\than? No hard feelings.
It is only Second Life you know. It should be fun.
Grammar and spelling police is so the eighties.

This is really a longterm peeve for me.
ESL people doing their best should be totally enough when it comes to SL (and the forums).

oooh kaaaay

I feel like I'm being tarred with a brush that isn't appropriate, but so be it. Label me as you wish, Sid. I know my intent and my mind. 

For the record I don't think I've ever boycotted anyone's products due to a spelling or grammar flaw. Depending on how bad it is, and its end meaning in "real" English, I may roll my eyes or laugh. If it is so bad and it is in a technical writing situation where it makes my ability to use the product difficult, I get frustrated and THEN I MIGHT boycott because then they made the product worthless to me.

Also for the record, I don't understand your upset at all, because you are very fluent, very easy to read, and that's in a conversational situation here in the Forum, and so see my previous comments regarding admiration and awe for people who can do that. (I've made similar comments in this place for years.)

The comments made recently in regards to ESL grammar are all about a public notice, a short one, that could have easily been made without some GLARING mistakes.

But again... if you wish to be a bigot against Americans and ascribe me with things that are not my feelings, meaning, intent, then by all means. I'm just surprised by that, is all.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Seicher Rae

[Sid Nagy]

Our discussion shows perfectly, that communicating in a foreign language isn't always easy.
If I misinterpreted a few things, sorry, those things happen every now and then.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Garnet Psaltery]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Pet Peeve: Some don't realize that all acts between people should be acts of love, and not fantasies of harming each other. Labeling harm as 'kink' does not justify anything. Claims of 'consent' does not change this. Everyone has the right to do what they want in the privacy of their home, of course, but we should not sugarcoat this behavior as being acceptable -- violence/debasement/fantasies of harm -- this is not love.

You're right - it isn't love, it's lust.  I'm not saying whether or not that's a good thing, nor whether people shouldn't want to harm each other; I'm just calling it what it is.

[Garnet Psaltery]

4 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Our discussion shows perfectly, that communicating in a foreign language isn't always easy.
If I misinterpreted a few things, sorry, those things happen every now and then.

The great difference between you and naughtypants alpha wannabe is that you have respect for other people.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Our discussion shows perfectly, that communicating in a foreign language isn't always easy.
If I misinterpreted a few things, sorry, those things happen every now and then.

I think it was all on my side! (I should have left out the word English and been clear that I meant "communicating clearly", period. Even people who use other languages can communicate clearly, as we've seen with good translations here in the Forums!)

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

naughtypants alpha wannabe

lol Pet Peeve:  I have never heard this term until now. Is it from another country?

[Garnet Psaltery]

7 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

The great difference between you and naughtypants alpha wannabe is that you have respect for other people.

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

lol Pet Peeve:  I have never heard this term until now. Is it from another country?

It appeared on an instant in my brain, which might be regarded as another country.   

[Luna Bliss]

7 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Pet Peeve: Some don't realize that all acts between people should be acts of love, and not fantasies of harming each other. Labeling harm as 'kink' does not justify anything. Claims of 'consent' does not change this. Everyone has the right to do what they want in the privacy of their home, of course, but we should not sugarcoat this behavior as being acceptable -- violence/debasement/fantasies of harm -- this is not love.

You're right - it isn't love, it's lust.  I'm not saying whether or not that's a good thing, nor whether people shouldn't want to harm each other; I'm just calling it what it is.

Hmmm...you made me think here, Garnet. I very much believe that lust should not be divorced from love. I remember arguing some years ago with my best friend at the time about it -- she felt fine that the 2 can be divorced.

I believe that it's not healthy to separate parts of ourselves as humans -- that they should be integrated. It's fine if animals do as they don't have the capability to integrate these.

So my Pet Peeve here is that I did not recognize quite what I was advocating until now.

[Luna Bliss]

15 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

If I misinterpreted a few things, sorry, those things happen every now and then.

I think it's a good debate, and my Pet Peeve is that you might have given up on your side too soon.

The question is...at what point should someone be expected to speak better English? You seemed upset that Seicher would require this in group announcements and note cards describing products in SL.  Like you, I don't think that should be required excessively -- I'd accept a few mistakes.

I do become annoyed when people start posting in a language I don't understand on the forum. If interested in the topic I go to my translator and don't confront, but feel that since they are entering a space where English is being spoken they should be the one to enter the discussion with translated words. For the sake of ease in communication.

[Seicher Rae]

24 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

The great difference between you and naughtypants alpha wannabe is that you have respect for other people.

I'm assuming you're referring to the misogynistic group author and not to me. I hope.

[Seicher Rae]

28 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

You're right - it isn't love, it's lust.  I'm not saying whether or not that's a good thing, nor whether people shouldn't want to harm each other; I'm just calling it what it is.

Unless you are in other people's heads and hearts, you can't know that. I find that statement personally hurtful.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

@Seicher Rae and @Bagnu -- the assumption that you both seem to be making is that this is an RP group. That people join when they want to "pretend" that women are inferior to men, and should be treated like dirt.

Where do you see any mention of RP in this group description? There's not even any explicit mention of SLex here. Nor any suggestion that it is not a group for who don't just actually believe that women are sh*t who merit abuse?

You surely know that such people exist, both in RL and SL. Andrew Tate has nearly 8 million followers on Twitter, and god knows how many viewers of his vile and hate-filled online screeds. And he's just one example.

Misogyny is not a "kink." It's hate.

I responded specifically to @Stephanie Misfit's point that misogyny has become "normalized" in SL. That doesn't mean that it's everywhere: I myself seldom run across blatant or very toxic examples of it in-world. But there are a huge number of groups, and really large ones in some instances (I know of one r*pe sim with over 30,0000 members), that cater to it, sometimes through RP and sometimes, as in this case, not.

Misogyny is, I will say without fear of contradiction, the single most popular expression of targeted hatred in SL. And the sheer prevalence of its articulation, and its tacit acceptance by LL, is bound to make the kind of attitudes Stephanie describes seem "acceptable."

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Love Zhaoying]

Peeve: Misogyny! 

[Seicher Rae]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

@Seicher Rae and @Bagnu -- the assumption that you both seem to be making is that this is an RP group. That people join when they want to "pretend" that women are inferior to men, and should be treated like dirt.

Where do you see any mention of RP in this group description? There's not even any explicit mention of SLex here. Nor any suggestion that it is not a group for who don't just actually believe that women are sh*t who merit abuse?

You surely know that such people exist, both in RL and SL. Andrew Tate has nearly 8 million followers on Twitter, and god knows how many viewers of his vile and hate-filled online screeds. And he's just one example.

Misogyny is not a "kink." It's hate.

I responded specifically to @Stephanie Misfit's point that misogyny has become "normalized" in SL. That doesn't mean that it's everywhere: I myself seldom run across blatant or very toxic examples of it in-world. But there are a huge number of groups, and really large ones in some instances (I know of one r*pe sim with over 30,0000 members), that cater to it, sometimes through RP and sometimes, as in this case, not.

Misogyny is, I will say without fear of contradiction, the single most popular expression of targeted hatred in SL. And the sheer prevalence of its articulation, and its tacit acceptance by LL, is bound to make the kind of attitudes Stephanie describes seem "acceptable."

 

Nope, I didn't say role play and I didn't mean rp. I meant what I said about mutual consent being the key point.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Seicher Rae said:

Nope, I didn't say role play and I didn't mean rp. I meant what I said about mutual consent being the key point.

Then you are only referring to women who join the group, and not to the rest of us. I don't "consent" to the expression of this kind of hatred against . . . me.

And my point remains: the tacit acceptance of groups like this poisons SL's culture by normalizing these kinds of attitudes.

That doesn't mean I advocate its banning, btw. But I sure as hell am going to make noise when I see it expressed.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

@Seicher Rae and @Bagnu -- the assumption that you both seem to be making is that this is an RP group. That people join when they want to "pretend" that women are inferior to men, and should be treated like dirt.

Where do you see any mention of RP in this group description? There's not even any explicit mention of SLex here. Nor any suggestion that it is not a group for who don't just actually believe that women are sh*t who merit abuse?

You surely know that such people exist, both in RL and SL. Andrew Tate has nearly 8 million followers on Twitter, and god knows how many viewers of his vile and hate-filled online screeds. And he's just one example.

 

Can't speak for @Bagnu, but I know @Seicher Rae and I can guarantee she wasn't making that assumption. I suspect she was giving these hatemongers* the treatment they deserve. Pointing and laughing. Ridicule. Any kind of engagement with them they will strut and spout and when you get tired of the game will declare they "won it" - this is a trademark of all these small-minded and hate-filled individuals, whoever it is they have fastened their hate onto. Just point your wand and say Ridikulus! like banishing a boggart in Harry Potter. The way to defeat them is to laugh at them. Call them on their obvious folly and stupidity and you stick a big ol' pin in their hatred at the same time.

And once you've laughed at them, shun them.

 

 

*The description I was thinking would have gotten me banned in pretty short order

[Seicher Rae]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

@Seicher Rae and @Bagnu -- the assumption that you both seem to be making is that this is an RP group. That people join when they want to "pretend" that women are inferior to men, and should be treated like dirt.

Where do you see any mention of RP in this group description? There's not even any explicit mention of SLex here. Nor any suggestion that it is not a group for who don't just actually believe that women are sh*t who merit abuse?

You surely know that such people exist, both in RL and SL. Andrew Tate has nearly 8 million followers on Twitter, and god knows how many viewers of his vile and hate-filled online screeds. And he's just one example.

Misogyny is not a "kink." It's hate.

I responded specifically to @Stephanie Misfit's point that misogyny has become "normalized" in SL. That doesn't mean that it's everywhere: I myself seldom run across blatant or very toxic examples of it in-world. But there are a huge number of groups, and really large ones in some instances (I know of one r*pe sim with over 30,0000 members), that cater to it, sometimes through RP and sometimes, as in this case, not.

Misogyny is, I will say without fear of contradiction, the single most popular expression of targeted hatred in SL. And the sheer prevalence of its articulation, and its tacit acceptance by LL, is bound to make the kind of attitudes Stephanie describes seem "acceptable."

 

PS... I am on my phone which sucks at this posting stuff, and so I am answering too briefly.

Misogyny is not kink. Not in the systemic way you and the originating poster meant. But some people use misogyny as a type of personalized kink, and I would say who are we to judge something like that, although way too many people do such judgement. Physical abuse is not a kink either, but pain can be. The nuances are there and are important.

 

I'd be standing next to you in a protest against systemic misogyny.  I would hope you would stand next to on some protest about the right for women to have personal freedom, even if that freedom is not your cuppa tea.