Is the belleza line getting phased out by the newer mesh bodies?

[Kalegthepsionicist]

On 8/8/2022 at 8:53 PM, Michael Blackwood said:

I can only say "Amen" to this comment. I am so so tired of seeing those (then by most users turned unrealistic as hell through a shape) super thicko bodies around the grid. If it was at least well proportioned chubby or bigger bodies - awesome, we need more of that body confidence in SL! But those.. 5 inch waist line 5000 inch butt.. bodies... 🤢

why not ?

does apperance so important ?

[Blaise Glendevon]

11 hours ago, Kalegthepsionicist said:

why not ?

does apperance so important ?

I can't speak to that poster - I don't agree with the way they denegrate other people's aesthetic choices. But I will say that my appearance in SL is a very carefully tuned reflection of the way I want to be seen on that day. I have a cabinet full of heads, furry avatars of all kinds of persuasions, and an unfortunate addiction to skins. So, appearance is very important in that whether I'm wearing my petite, more youthful face and figure or my more voluptuous grown woman or one of my playful anthro animal avatars, it reflects how I want to be interacted with. 

[Kalegthepsionicist]

3 hours ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

I can't speak to that poster - I don't agree with the way they denegrate other people's aesthetic choices. But I will say that my appearance in SL is a very carefully tuned reflection of the way I want to be seen on that day. I have a cabinet full of heads, furry avatars of all kinds of persuasions, and an unfortunate addiction to skins. So, appearance is very important in that whether I'm wearing my petite, more youthful face and figure or my more voluptuous grown woman or one of my playful anthro animal avatars, it reflects how I want to be interacted with. 

in my eyes you all are human being whatever gender or form . I treat all avatar as human I meet irl.

my avatar is not another version or escaping from real , but rl extended if my realself .

so for me the look it really doesnt matter. Yes Inice looking avatar is good to see but from my sight its separated with the personality behind.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Kalegthepsionicist

[Blaise Glendevon]

3 minutes ago, Kalegthepsionicist said:

in my eyes you all are human being whatever gender or form . I treat all avatar as human I meet irl.

my avatar is not another version or escaping from real , but rl extended if my realself .

so for me the look it really doesnt matter. Yes Inice looking avatar is good to see but from my sight its separated with the personality behind.

You've missed the point. 

[Kalegthepsionicist]

Just now, Blaise Glendevon said:

You've missed the point. 

I understand what you mean , people can freely choose how they shape. some love aeschetic some like cartoons shape.

 just told you how I see avi for me it doesnt matter how they appera, even profile  people only write best of themself. and hide the negative part.

 

[Blaise Glendevon]

47 minutes ago, Kalegthepsionicist said:

I understand what you mean , people can freely choose how they shape. some love aeschetic some like cartoons shape.

 just told you how I see avi for me it doesnt matter how they appera, even profile  people only write best of themself. and hide the negative part.

 

Then why are you even here?

[Kathlen Onyx]

37 minutes ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

Then why are you even here?

it's really not worth it to engage, in my opinion you won't get far.

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

More and more skin makers are failing to support it in their more recent entries, and fashion is getting rarer.

That said it's my favorite as I can mod away all the junk with the new version and it has enough curve (I find Maitreya, Isis, and Venus all too flat overall, and the Maitreya addons favor going even flatter up top), but not too much (the newer bodies all seem to be cartoonishly pear shaped).

If Legacy was mod and I could delete all the excess, that might change my thinking.

 

If this is a Goldielocks analysis - Belleza Freya is the one that's just right.

 

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

On 8/8/2022 at 10:43 AM, colleen Criss said:

There is a new body coming in October, I do not know who the creator is though.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/37690108@N05/52264942564/in/datetaken/

That looks to be on the 'too much' side.

Everyone seems to want to be either too much curve or not enough curve / too small up top.

Only Belleza Freya and Legacy seem to be in the middle.

If I were to replace Belleza Freya I'd need something like it. Not something that looks like it's made to compete with Kupra. That image looks like a body made for people who want the Kupra level of curve, but with realism.

I don't mind the presence of those bodies. Rather the competition there already has a lot of quality entries so why would someone who wants that look switch to something new and less supported?

I pity the fool that tries to compete with either Maitreya on one end or Kupra on the other. They won't get many sales when the competition is already very good at meeting it's customer's needs.

 

What I want is the Belleza / Legacy level of curve, still copy/mod like Belleza, but with a fixed neck. And supported. There was a new body like this a year or two ago I think, but it didn't get enough support.

 

There's a lot of room to take this 'middle curvy' market. But it would still be a tough road to travel.

Any new body at this point is probably going to need to come out of the gate as copy/mod, with an included pack of sample full-perms clothing, and a free 'anyone can get it' complete developer kit AND use an identical 'skin layout' to a popular brand - so people don't need to buy new skins for it.

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by UnilWay SpiritWeaver

[Rowan Amore]

27 minutes ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

That looks to be on the 'too much' side.

Everyone seems to want to be either too much curve or not enough curve / too small up top.

Only Belleza Freya and Legacy seem to be in the middle.

If I were to replace Belleza Freya I'd need something like it. Not something that looks like it's made to compete with Kupra. That image looks like a body made for people who want the Kupra level of curve, but with realism.

I don't mind the presence of those bodies. Rather the competition there already has a lot of quality entries so why would someone who wants that look switch to something new and less supported?

I pity the fool that tries to compete with either Maitreya on one end or Kupra on the other. They won't get many sales when the competition is already very good at meeting it's customer's needs.

 

What I want is the Belleza / Legacy level of curve, still copy/mod like Belleza, but with a fixed neck. And supported. There was a new body like this a year or two ago I think, but it didn't get enough support.

 

There's a lot of room to take this 'middle curvy' market. But it would still be a tough road to travel.

Any new body at this point is probably going to need to come out of the gate as copy/mod, with an included pack of sample full-perms clothing, and a free 'anyone can get it' complete developer kit AND use an identical 'skin layout' to a popular brand - so people don't need to buy new skins for it.

 

 

 

Try Reborn.  It comes with a mod version.  It's what I've switched to using after Maitreya and Legacy.

[Persephone Emerald]

For most people using a female avatar, Maitreya Lara (or the discount equivalent LucyBody ) is fine. This shape has the most clothing and add-ons made for it.

For those who want more curves: Freya is the cheapest and a natural look. It doesn't have as much clothing still being made for it, but it has plenty for me. It also has one of the lowest render costs when modified to strip off the applier layers.

Kupra & Reborn are both good options for a curvy figure, but pick the one that suits you best. No mesh body is perfect.

Legacy is for people who don't mind paying $L 5000 for a body with a very high render cost & a HUD that might not work sometimes.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Persephone Emerald

[colleen Criss]

Demo Kupra Kups 2.1. Demo Kalhene Erika. Kups is the very slim down model of the original Kupra. and light on render cost and modifiable. As is KALHENE.

[Ceka Cianci]

On 8/26/2022 at 1:51 PM, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

That looks to be on the 'too much' side.

Everyone seems to want to be either too much curve or not enough curve / too small up top.

Only Belleza Freya and Legacy seem to be in the middle.

If I were to replace Belleza Freya I'd need something like it. Not something that looks like it's made to compete with Kupra. That image looks like a body made for people who want the Kupra level of curve, but with realism.

I don't mind the presence of those bodies. Rather the competition there already has a lot of quality entries so why would someone who wants that look switch to something new and less supported?

I pity the fool that tries to compete with either Maitreya on one end or Kupra on the other. They won't get many sales when the competition is already very good at meeting it's customer's needs.

 

What I want is the Belleza / Legacy level of curve, still copy/mod like Belleza, but with a fixed neck. And supported. There was a new body like this a year or two ago I think, but it didn't get enough support.

 

There's a lot of room to take this 'middle curvy' market. But it would still be a tough road to travel.

Any new body at this point is probably going to need to come out of the gate as copy/mod, with an included pack of sample full-perms clothing, and a free 'anyone can get it' complete developer kit AND use an identical 'skin layout' to a popular brand - so people don't need to buy new skins for it.

 

 

 

If you are just going from that one picture, you may want to look at more images of the body..

Most of what makes Kupra Kupra is under the water in that image.. hehehe

From what I can see, if you try to go too wide with that bodies hips, it starts to gap in the crotch area too much..

I have a feeling this body is heading more in the area of Maitreya and Legacy market than Kupra..

It's gonna be released Oct 1st at Famshed , if they are on time..

I'm definitely gonna be giving it a try.. We could use another body in the Maitreya Legacy part of the market that is gonna stick..  My fingers are crossed,  hoping for the best,planning for the worst.. hehehehe

One thing I'm liking about it is, the shoulders meeting the arms.. I'm not seeing noodle joint there so far.. but could be deformers or photo editing too.. The demo is gonna tell the truth.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Blaise Glendevon]

I won't be adopting any body that doesn't have a wide range of clothing and skins available. The blueprint for body launches has already been laid out by Legacy and now Ebody - who took that model to a new level with their monthly event. If Prima wants us to wear their body, they'd better be planning out of the gate to get good brands on board.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Blaise Glendevon

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

40 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

If you are just going from that one picture, you may want to look at more images of the body..

I have a feeling this body is heading more in the area of Maitreya and Legacy market than Kupra..

Yeah I noticed one image where the hips are severely deformed:

- That looks like a non-survivable injury...

But it's the only so badly deformed image. Somebody might have just spilled their coffee on the shape slider and set hip width to 3,000...

The rest of the images look better.

But this is NOT competing with Maitreya. It has breasts that go above A-cup.

It might be actual competition with Belleza Freya and Legacy.

- That image looks like somebody slipped in the other direction and set hip length to -10.

But this one has me hopeful:

- That's a Freya killing image right there. If the thing comes out copy/mod and at decent complexity Freya is dead.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

31 minutes ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

Yeah I noticed one image where the hips are severely deformed:

- That looks like a non-survivable injury...

But it's the only so badly deformed image. Somebody might have just spilled their coffee on the shape slider and set hip width to 3,000...

The rest of the images look better.

But this is NOT competing with Maitreya. It has breasts that go above A-cup.

It might be actual competition with Belleza Freya and Legacy.

- That image looks like somebody slipped in the other direction and set hip length to -10.

But this one has me hopeful:

- That's a Freya killing image right there. If the thing comes out copy/mod and at decent complexity Freya is dead.

 

When i say that market, I'm just meaning the slimmer bodies market.. I'm willing to bet you would get a decent amount switching from a Maitreya for more range in the breasts.. The thing that will make the difference in that area will be if it is versatile from big to small in that area.. From what I've read , it has a petite as well..

I guess we'll find out just what the real deal is in October.. I'm hoping it's worth the buy as well as gets support..

I've learned from Kalhene Erika that it takes more than just a good well proportioned body to make it.. The creator has to do everythign right these days.. A big thing is ,making sure the dev kits aren't put behind a wall..

Maitreya wouldn't get away with that today if they were just starting up..

 

 

[Blaise Glendevon]

33 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Maitreya wouldn't get away with that today if they were just starting up..

They would, if they let the right people have the dev kits _before_ the body was released and incentivized those creators to make it easy for their users to swap over.

[Ceka Cianci]

10 minutes ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

They would, if they let the right people have the dev kits _before_ the body was released and incentivized those creators to make it easy for their users to swap over.

Ya, there is that I guess..But then they would be in direct competition with the other bodies and not sitting on the big lead they have now.. It would take people picking that body over the other bodies of today.. The big reason Maitreya is still doing so well is because of how much things are out there for it today..

They might have to hand it out to more than just a few to make an impact.. Because i don't think the body would do it on it's own when it's neck and neck with the others..

Edited August 27, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

2 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I've learned from Kalhene Erika that it takes more than just a good well proportioned body to make it.. The creator has to do everythign right these days.. A big thing is ,making sure the dev kits aren't put behind a wall..

Yeah.

I think a new body in a saturated market needs to really launch big with a lot of features the competition doesn't offer and the ability for both users and merchants to transition over with as little hassle as possible.

I think you need most of these:

• Copy / Mod
• If not Copy / Mod, then sold like Maitreya where the layers are worn separate. But copy/mod is better because people don't agree on what layers should be peeled off.
• Free anyone can get full developer kit
• Lots of premade included support clothing for 'basic fashion. Preferably full-perm, or at least copy/mod with some full perm textures / UV maps.
• Ready before release clothing lines from some major brands.
• Super active marketing - even 2 months in advance there should be a CSR in the forum here just searching for mentions of the product. Also flickr, discord (even though I refuse to use discord), etc.
• Ready before release skin support. I should already be able to go somewhere like Velour or Glam Affair and see the skin for sale or included in fatpacks or something.
• Ready before release 'addons' like the genital / breast mod kits... Even if a developer has a moral stick up their [woops], their customers are going to want that BEFORE they switch.

And probably a half dozen other things to keep it from failing out of the gate...

At this point I kind of feel that 'no-Mod' bodies should only be given out as 'lucky chair' freebies. If you pay for it, it should be mod.

 

[Blaise Glendevon]

The population of people who want to make granular, mod-level changes on their bodies is very small.

[steeljane42]

1 hour ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

The population of people who want to make granular, mod-level changes on their bodies is very small.

Yep, pretty much this. People on this forum love to write about complexity even if it's a broken and useless number, "the lag", how mod bodies/heads must be a thing, but it's a (very) small sample size and people around here are way more into techy stuff than average SL users.

I've almost never seen people in-world, especially around big shopping events and some photo spots, wearing the mod version of Reborn for example. Can't say I check all that often, but sometimes I do, I'd say 1/100 wears the mod one, if even that.

Having option like that is good, of course, but as most popular bodies, heads and clothing show us it's never an important factor in how popular it gets/is.

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by steeljane42
typos

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

14 hours ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

The population of people who want to make granular, mod-level changes on their bodies is very small.

Yeah but... you need to think about this another way:

What it takes in 2022 to get someone to be willing to abandon all of their existing clothing, props, skins, etc.

You need some serious selling points to do that. Having a "good looking new body" is not enough - the existing choices aren't horrible messes anymore like they were 4 or 5 years ago.

You need to push the issue and find things other brands haven't done. You can't just be "yet another option, but with less variety of fashion to buy."

If not making it copy/mod - then something else. Something beyond just 'yet another choice in the crowd, but with less support.'

 

The main reason I still use Belleza Freya is that being mod, I can fix most of the things I don't like on my own. Outside of that, it also has great third party support.

If something is new, it will lack the third party support. So what then is the motive to switch?

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by UnilWay SpiritWeaver

[Chery Amore]

23 hours ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

Yeah I noticed one image where the hips are severely deformed:

- That looks like a non-survivable injury...

But it's the only so badly deformed image. Somebody might have just spilled their coffee on the shape slider and set hip width to 3,000...

The rest of the images look better.

But this is NOT competing with Maitreya. It has breasts that go above A-cup.

It might be actual competition with Belleza Freya and Legacy.

- That image looks like somebody slipped in the other direction and set hip length to -10.

But this one has me hopeful:

- That's a Freya killing image right there. If the thing comes out copy/mod and at decent complexity Freya is dead.

 

I dunno when I first saw this picture (the Freya killing one) I wanted to cheer, but the hips are so big in the first shot that they might have had to bring the hips down to near 0 to achieve the last picture there.  The problem with that is that although it can look good in pictures with the right poses and angles.. when you walk your legs are too close together or they cross. The middle picture kind of indicates that could be happening and in the last picture her legs are crossed.

This does however look easier to work with than the last few too thicc for me bodies so I'm definitely going to demo when it's released.   With Belleza Freya I do have to make the butt almost nothing but the hips are close to what they need to be.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Chery Amore

[Blaise Glendevon]

2 hours ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

Yeah but... you need to think about this another way:

What it takes in 2022 to get someone to be willing to abandon all of their existing clothing, props, skins, etc.

 

Whatever it is, it's not making the body mod. That is not the game-changer.

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

20 hours ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

Whatever it is, it's not making the body mod. That is not the game-changer.

And yet it's a very frequently requested thing, Just because those who've done it haven't marketed it well, doesn't mean it doesn't add value. If you look beyond human bodies that becomes rapidly obvious.

And there's no logical reason to not do it. It's a zero cost value add.

There are others. Rather than pick and choose, any competitor in 2022 is going to have to do nearly ALL of them, or rapidly lose.

This being a belleza thread - think about why that body still manages to hold on despite no support from it's seller. At this point Belleza has nothing left to offer save for innertia and being mod.

You won't be able to kill Belleza over the innertia issue for years to come because even if you make a lot of stuff available - unless you make it full-perms it will take time for people to have enough of it to toss out their copies of Belleza.

Sure, mod itself won't be enough. But it will move the needle.

Now they should think about what else could also move the needle. Which means beating the competition not where they are strong (good bodies, low complexity, lots of available clothes), but where they are weak:

editable scripts, mod, copies of the materials textures and numbers so people can finally match their body and head, easier for new third party developers to join in, and MORE...

Mod is not the end of this conversation - it's the beginning.

And it's the easiest one to do. As noted: zero cost value add. All it takes is a dev checking one box in edit. And there is absolutely nothing to lose by doing so.

Of all the ways to add value to a product, it's the one that takes the least effort.

If you want a new product to succeed - the game should be finding MORE value adds, not shooting them down.

 

The question isn't "why mod".

The question is "what else in addition to mod to push that needle even further?"

 

If Mod isn't enough, then you need not less, but more.

The human female mesh body market is absurdly over-saturated. Any new entry needs to just throw in the entire kitchen sink, and then run and toss in the bathroom sink as well, along with stealing the neighbor's sink and throwing that in there too - or it has no chance.

- And then it ALSO needs to market that fact. Not do it quietly. I'm obsessed with Mod because I like to get something if I pay for something, and I didn't even know the other body noted above had it. Too quiet on promoting that addition...

 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by UnilWay SpiritWeaver