Discrimination rules to be added to TOS?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Ceka Cianci said:

I always liked when I can spot them out a mile away, rather than giving them a hiding spot..

 

 

 

Totally. And that's fine with LL, I think, whatever the qualms that I'm certain many individuals within the organization feel about it personally.

LL is also looking for "plausible deniability." And they want the nastiest stuff safely out of the casual view of the public -- which is, not coincidentally, what the people running these regions and groups also want.

As I think I've noted before, I can't think of a single instance when LL enacted a restriction on a kind of behaviour -- inappropriate behaviour with minors, gambling, gachas, "banks," etc. -- proactively and of their own volition. It has always happened because of external forces, regulations, laws, and bad PR.

Some of that is, as I think Coffee said above, about "money." But LL was also founded on a Silicon Valley libertarian ethos.

It'll be interesting to see how that slowly changes under new management. As I think it's going to, in at least some ways.

[Ceka Cianci]

deleted

Edited August 2, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Quartz Mole]

I've just had to remove a load of posts, and several people have messaged me to ask why.

Basically, the thread is supposed to be about Discrimination rules to be added to TOS?,  not avatar physics and bounce.   Jokes about something some's said are one thing, but the thread was well on the way to being derailed, so I've had to pull a lot of posts to try to get it back on track.

If you want to talk about bouncy avatar physics, fine, but please start a thread on the topic.  Don't use this thread for a conversation that's nothing to do with the original topic.

[Seicher Rae]

10 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

I've just had to remove a load of posts, and several people have messaged me to ask why.

Basically, the thread is supposed to be about Discrimination rules to be added to TOS?,  not avatar physics and bounce.   Jokes about something some's said are one thing, but the thread was well on the way to being derailed, so I've had to pull a lot of posts to try to get it back on track.

If you want to talk about bouncy avatar physics, fine, but please start a thread on the topic.  Don't use this thread for a conversation that's nothing to do with the original topic.

Deleted. But I hope it was read.

I had just told my SL partner that I thought I might return to posting on the Forum. I had kind of missed it.
Yeah... no.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Seicher Rae

[Ceka Cianci]

On 7/31/2022 at 9:27 PM, WinnieTheWerewolfPup said:

This has been bugging me for quite some time. I have been playing secondlife for over 3 years now and it boggles my mind that there is rampant discrimination of people simply because of their choice of avatar. People flip their lids if a certain type of avatar shows up and immediately ban said person from events, public sims, and public stores even though the person did nothing wrong other than choosing an avatar that other people dont like.  We all have our opinions but this is starting to get ridiculous that certain avatars cant go practically anywhere because people are "scared of them" or just simply dont like them. that is not how this place is supposed to be. secondlife is supposed to be a fun, nice place to be yet its hostile and discriminatory. ive been waiting for 3 years now and all Linden Labs has done is ban gatchas. because THAT of all things was the biggest problem. So I am asking Linden Labs. when do you all plan to do something about all this racism, discrimination, and intolerance running rampant across SL? Even when we report people that very clearly violate TOS you do nothing. Do you plan on doing anything about this? or are we just going to have to suffer and avoid expressing ourselfs for who we want to be in order to participate in the game? does anyone else agree? Its been getting worse and worse and Linden Labs wont lift a single finger about it. 

These are the community standards, which sounds like you missed reading all this time.. You should probably read them,understand them, file AR's when things line up..

When reading them remember that the user is the account holder and the tool is the avatar..

 

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[NevaehHeartstrings]

On 7/31/2022 at 9:50 PM, Rowan Amore said:

no talking plants. 

Those Savages!

[Codex Alpha]

On 7/31/2022 at 7:27 PM, WinnieTheWerewolfPup said:

This has been bugging me for quite some time. I have been playing secondlife for over 3 years now and it boggles my mind that there is rampant discrimination of people simply because of their choice of avatar. People flip their lids if a certain type of avatar shows up and immediately ban said person from events, public sims, and public stores even though the person did nothing wrong other than choosing an avatar that other people dont like.  We all have our opinions but this is starting to get ridiculous that certain avatars cant go practically anywhere because people are "scared of them" or just simply dont like them. that is not how this place is supposed to be. secondlife is supposed to be a fun, nice place to be yet its hostile and discriminatory. ive been waiting for 3 years now and all Linden Labs has done is ban gatchas. because THAT of all things was the biggest problem. So I am asking Linden Labs. when do you all plan to do something about all this racism, discrimination, and intolerance running rampant across SL? Even when we report people that very clearly violate TOS you do nothing. Do you plan on doing anything about this? or are we just going to have to suffer and avoid expressing ourselfs for who we want to be in order to participate in the game? does anyone else agree? Its been getting worse and worse and Linden Labs wont lift a single finger about it. 

Discrimination will always happen, because all of us are discriminating. It's all discrimination,  but depending on the popular culture's opinion of the day, one thing is discrimination, but another is not.

Best to take it in stride and welcome the day where you can find a group with like-minded individuals and friends.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Luna Bliss]

46 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Discrimination will always happen, because all of us are discriminating. It's all discrimination,  but depending on the popular culture's opinion of the day, one thing is discrimination, but another is not.

Best to take it in stride and welcome the day where you can find a group with like-minded individuals and friends.

Just because "discrimination happens" or that it might have been evaluated differently in different time periods should not be an excuse to simply accept all discrimination now.  In the OP's case, clarified by a subsequent poster as a discrimination against child avatars, we have to consider whether the discrimination is causing undue harm (for example, what if the child avatars had no place to exist in SL due to being excluded, or there were so few that it impeded a reasonable degree of enjoyment here).

Or, we need to judge whether someone discriminated against has been so harmed in the past (in SL and RL) that to continue such discrimination in SL would be in bad taste. Often this is determined individually, and of course the final word rests with LL as to what is allowed.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

32 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

but depending on the popular culture's opinion of the day, one thing is discrimination, but another is not.

I see you added italics, so I'll respond further for clarification.

It would be research into what's actually occurring inworld that would determine whether discrimination is happening.  That's why I entertained the idea of creating a child avatar so I could experience first-hand attempting to go to public places as a child to apprehend how much of a problem it is for child avatars currently.

So there is nothing about "popular culture's opinion of the day"  that determines discrimination. It is determined by going out in the field to get more facts. There are those who research dynamics in virtual worlds and so we also have psychological tests to determine if bias and discrimination occur, and how it applies to particular people and circumstances.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Luna Bliss

[Nalates Urriah]

There are levels and types of discrimination. There is also the matter of who is discriminating. And the flip side is what is the person doing that is trying to stop a specific act of discrimination.

These nuances aren’t often discussed.

Anti-discrimination laws are generally made to control the government. As people try to push those laws into personal situations they run afoul of civil liberties. When people can’t force others to do as they want then they try get laws passed and we get a big mess.

Seems few people realize morality can’t be legislated. Nor written into a TOS. So, the Lab simply says we’ll decided which and how much discrimination they will tolerate. That is about as good as it gets.

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

22 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

Anti-discrimination laws are generally made to control the government. As people try to push those laws into personal situations they run afoul of civil liberties. When people can’t force others to do as they want then they try get laws passed and we get a big mess.

 

Seems few people realize morality can’t be legislated.

Anti-discrimination laws are not made to legislate morality specifically. They are made to protect vulnerable populations from being hurt by others. In our case by the OP, I can't see how child avatars would be hurt, as there is ample room for them to traverse all the Bellisseria roads and attend gatherings there. Now if there truly was no place for them I would imagine LL would make an effort to accommodate them more in concert with protecting private property rights, as it would be good for SL's continued growth (particularly if child avatars in SL were numerous).

Like you, I would prefer the method of help not to be a top-down type (laws, governance), but instead focusing on ways to increase their reputation in SL. Sometimes though we do need a law!

[Cate Foulsbane]

On 8/1/2022 at 1:11 PM, Rowan Amore said:

This is what most bothers me about child avatars.  I don't want to be a part of your RP.  If you're talking like a 2 year old in local chat, I'll ignore you.   I'm also not going to engage with someone in an animal avatar (not furry) who only talks in emotes as if they were an actual dog.  I don't RP.  It's fine if you do but don't expect everyone to want to participate in YOUR RP.  It's not how I use MY SL.  

Thank you for this...I couldn't have said it better!  However, what really does bother me in SL re: child avies is encountering them in places I would least expect like a nightclub or ballroom. If I get dressed up and go out to a club, I expect to find myself surrounded by adults (whether human or furry or tiny). I do NOT expect to see little kids mingling and doing little kid stuff. A playground, a park, a family gathering, a school room, sure. But not a nightclub!  I would think those doing child RP would want to be surrounded by other children and do the things children do.   As for banning child avies from nightclubs, most owners do..some do not. Those of us who don't want our adult RP to be thrown off-kilter can choose the No Children clubs. 

 

[belindacarson]

self edited before the forum keyboard warriors bumble in

 

RL adults "roleplaying" as children makes me want to call the FBI

 

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by belindacarson

[Harper Held]

1 hour ago, belindacarson said:

RL adults "roleplaying" as children makes me want to call the FBI

That sounds like a "you" problem, not a "the rest of us need to give a *****" problem.

[Harper Held]

I guess for some people "roleplaying" is something that can only be done with one hand? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Cate Foulsbane]

RL adults "roleplaying" as children makes me want to call the FBI

I understand. But why does the sight affect you that way? Do you think the adult behind the child avie is up to no good?  I have some old baggage re: adult avies in the company of child avies but that's my own stuff and has nothing to do with whatever might actually be going on. I think most adults who have child avies are role-playing their own childhood...having the life they miss or that they wish they'd had.  I have an adult avie and frequently act in what some might think is a childish manner. But I have NO desire to have my own child avie. Another aspect is the look of the child avie. Does it look like a "normal" child with age appropriate clothing and behavior? Or is it a sexualized little girl? Or maybe a child avie covered with bruises and sad eyes? Those sorts of avatars make ME want to call the Feds, too. 

[Harper Held]

7 minutes ago, Cate Foulsbane said:

RL adults "roleplaying" as children makes me want to call the FBI

I understand. But why does the sight affect you that way? Do you think the adult behind the child avie is up to no good?  I have some old baggage re: adult avies in the company of child avies but that's my own stuff and has nothing to do with whatever might actually be going on. I think most adults who have child avies are role-playing their own childhood...having the life they miss or that they wish they'd had.  I have an adult avie and frequently act in what some might think is a childish manner. But I have NO desire to have my own child avie. Another aspect is the look of the child avie. Does it look like a "normal" child with age appropriate clothing and behavior? Or is it a sexualized little girl? Or maybe a child avie covered with bruises and sad eyes? Those sorts of avatars make ME want to call the Feds, too. 

Well said; I was going to say something about every accusation being a confession but decided to leave that alone.

Judging by her (incredibly sparse) inworld profile, it looks like Belinda's primary focus is the NSFW side of SL. Nothing wrong with that -but I have a strong hunch that non-sexual RP is a huge blind spot for her. Even if it isn't it sounds like there's some sort of highly flawed logic going on here ("I'm here for XXX, roleplay is XXX, a kid avi is doing roleplay, therefore the kid avi is here for XXX").

It's obvious that it's BS once you break it down.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Han Held
clarification

[Cate Foulsbane]

5 minutes ago, Han Held said:

I guess for some people "roleplaying" is something that can only be done with one hand? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That seems a bit snarky, Han Held. I can guess what you infer, but not sure, I could be wrong. For me, RP is pretty much what I do every day in SL. I appear to be an adult woman in her mid to late 20's, able to do amazing things with landscaping, able to fly and transport herself here and afar, able to dance for hours , able to sail boats and create objects out of nothing. My RL self is a house=bound, elderly woman who can't dance, can't run, no longer drives, can't move earth, and so on. The SL me is the RP of what I wish I could do but can't. Maybe that's not so different from an adult becoming, virtually, a carefree child again.

 

[Harper Held]

Just now, Cate Foulsbane said:

That seems a bit snarky, Han Held. I can guess what you infer, but not sure, I could be wrong. For me, RP is pretty much what I do every day in SL. I appear to be an adult woman in her mid to late 20's, able to do amazing things with landscaping, able to fly and transport herself here and afar, able to dance for hours , able to sail boats and create objects out of nothing. My RL self is a house=bound, elderly woman who can't dance, can't run, no longer drives, can't move earth, and so on. The SL me is the RP of what I wish I could do but can't. Maybe that's not so different from an adult becoming, virtually, a carefree child again.

 

The snark was an appropriate response to the insuation in belinda's post.

I fleshed out that thought in my subsequent post and I wasn't talking about you. My post was in reference to belinda's comment that child avatars must be doing something illegal simply by existing.

I'm part of a couple of RP communities inworld (as well as the NSFW side of SL). I know that they can be the same thing but are not necessarily the same thing; and that most people are able to tell the difference.

tldr; "I already knew that, Cate; you should be saying that to belinda."

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

8 minutes ago, Cate Foulsbane said:

For me, RP is pretty much what I do every day in SL. I appear to be an adult woman in her mid to late 20's, able to do amazing things with landscaping, able to fly and transport herself here and afar, able to dance for hours , able to sail boats and create objects out of nothing. My RL self is a house=bound, elderly woman who can't dance, can't run, no longer drives, can't move earth, and so on. The SL me is the RP of what I wish I could do but can't. Maybe that's not so different from an adult becoming, virtually, a carefree child again.

I'm happy that you can find such joy here!

[Harper Held]

6 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

I'm happy that you can find such joy here!

Same, even if she did call me out (wrongly, IMO 😛). I can even relate for reasons I'm not going to post here ("anything you post to the forum can and will be used against you in a future flame war" 😱)

Edited August 20, 2022 by Han Held
Against me!

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Han Held said:

The snark was an appropriate response to the insuation in belinda's post.

I fleshed out that thought in my subsequent post and I wasn't talking about you. My post was in reference to belinda's comment that child avatars must be doing something illegal simply by existing.

I'm part of a couple of RP communities inworld (as well as the NSFW side of SL). I know that they can be the same thing but are not necessarily the same thing; and that most people are able to tell the difference.

tldr; "I already knew that, Cate; you should be saying that to belinda."

Like, when did snark become bad? I guess the Forum's a dangerous playground for some people. I mean, it's not everyone's cup of tea, if easily upset or offended by "snark". 

Han, you go! I like your posting style. You be you.

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

5 minutes ago, Han Held said:

"anything you post to the forum can and will be used you in a future flame war"

Sometimes I'm afraid to post anything when I see how easily we misunderstand each other. We only see the misinterpretations when someone speaks up, but what are those who stay silent sometimes thinking!? 💀

Oh well........

[Harper Held]

17 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

 

Han, you go! I like your posting style. You be you.

Thanks! You're pretty awesome yourself!

!

Edited August 20, 2022 by Han Held

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

Sometimes I'm afraid to post anything when I see how easily we misunderstand each other. We only see the misinterpretations when someone speaks up, but what are those who stay silent sometimes thinking!? 💀

Oh well........

Some people get so upset by misunderstandings that they leave (or threaten to and finally do, for awhile). I bet you can learn to deal with it (not leave, etc.)!

This is my utterly sincere advice. Here's what I do (and I post a lot - more than these recent people cluttering up things): If I realize that it's really one or a few people who either misunderstand me, get upset because they think I misunderstood them, "that's not what I meant" - or any variation: I mentally filter out those people's posts, don't read all their posts, try not to reply to their posts - and even go so far as to reply but ignore (not read) their response.

This weird tactic has helped me a lot. Your mileage may vary!

Thanks, 

Love