The Second Life Mission Discussion

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, IGarrett said:

Okay then. I'm not trying to upset people here, and I do think that I never made any disrespecting comments  when making my points. But I'm sorry if you felt something about what I said, i'll refrain to engage in this topic to avoid that then.

You are smart!  But the "specific" replies probably contain some information that would help you understand. 

Diverging onto a hot-button topic like "pregnancy"? Maybe not.

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

10 minutes ago, IGarrett said:

Okay then. I'm not trying to upset people here, and I do think that I never made any disrespecting comments  when making my points. But I'm sorry if you felt something about what I said, i'll refrain to engage in this topic anymore to avoid that.

I like how you are concerned about not upsetting people; this shows you care about the feelings of others.

Please don't stop being curious about this and run away. Believe me, no matter what you say people will get upset around here!  I'm including myself, as I often wonder at a later date why in the world some post would upset me. hehe

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

34 minutes ago, IGarrett said:

If you can cite sources and have anything to add to this, then please do it. 

What did you think about the actresses I posted, describing how they got paid so much less than the men for the same jobs? Some posts mentioned even more actresses who came forward too.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Kiera Clutterbuck

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

Mark Wahlberg, the actor who was paid 1.5 million for the reshoots while Michelle Williams was paid only $1,000, is a great ally for women. He donated his 1.5 million to charity in Williams' name:

Wahlberg said:  "I 100% support the fight for fair pay and I’m donating the $1.5 million to the Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund in Michelle Williams’ name".

https://deadline.com/2018/01/mark-wahlberg-michelle-williams-timesup-donation-million-and-one-half-donation-all-the-money-in-the-world-1202242504/

Edited June 28, 2022 by Kiera Clutterbuck

[Paul Hexem]

On 6/27/2022 at 6:49 PM, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Just want to point out that I've had issues getting paid the same amount as other women. And yes, we had the same exact job/responsibilities/hours/titles.

Doesn't that sort of reinforce the notion that it's not gender related though? At least in your example?

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Doesn't that sort of reinforce the notion that it's not gender related though? At least in your example?

Gender, perhaps not. I wasn't the same race, though. Discrimination comes in all forms, unfortunately. 

My statement was more general/global - perhaps I should've framed it that way, sorry. Gender is only one of numerous pay gap issues with the workplace (disability, ethnicity/race, gender, orientation, age, etc.). Having experienced getting the short end of the stick on more than one occasion at work across several industries, it's really not that hard for me to believe it happens on the basis of gender, too. It's just that for me personally, it's kind of hard to tell which thing is at play at any given time when I find out my salary is way off. Big freaking sigh!

Also, I'm not sure if it's still legal or what (is it?), but I remember companies used to go harrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd on employees for discussing compensation. Like outright threats of being fired if they found out. Surely, if everyone was paid the same in the same dept/role, that wouldn't have been necessary.

[Rowan Amore]

9 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Gender, perhaps not. I wasn't the same race, though. Discrimination comes in all forms, unfortunately. 

My statement was more general/global - perhaps I should've framed it that way, sorry. Gender is only one of numerous pay gap issues with the workplace (disability, ethnicity/race, gender, orientation, age, etc.). Having experienced getting the short end of the stick on more than one occasion at work across several industries, it's really not that hard for me to believe it happens on the basis of gender, too. It's just that for me personally, it's kind of hard to tell which thing is at play at any given time when I find out my salary is way off. Big freaking sigh!

Also, I'm not sure if it's still legal or what (is it?), but I remember companies used to go harrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd on employees for discussing compensation. Like outright threats of being fired if they found out. Surely, if everyone was paid the same in the same dept/role, that wouldn't have been necessary.

You have the right to discuss your pay with whomever you choose.  It's actually illegal in the US for.them to even have a rule against discussing it.  This might have come about because companies were.making rules and retaliating.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You have the right to discuss your pay with whomever you choose.  It's actually illegal in the US for.them to even have a rule against discussing it.  This might have come about because companies were.making rules and retaliating.

This was yearrrrs ago (lemme think...like 2005 and on - maybe even some years earlier), so I'm not sure if laws existed or got changed or what. I just remember bosses and managers having massive freakouts and telling employees to NEVER discuss pay.

I mean, people did it anyway. Yolo. They didn't scare anyone.

[Arielle Popstar]

 

[Jaylinbridges]

Missing from this discussion entirely is the concept of paying for Performance.  Equal work in the same job does not equal the same Performance.  The companies I worked for, and managed technical groups, all used 3 month performance reviews to determine salary increases if any.  Of course there were rather large gaps between some of the employees all doing the same work. It had nothing to do with gender.  

But that was back in the early 1980's when high-tech companies were competitive to hire the best engineers and technicians.  Pay them what they are worth, or lose them to a competitor.  Gender was never the issue in middle management.  My highest rated employee was a woman technician, and I had about equal men and woman in my group.  She was the highest paid in my group because she deserved it.  She also took night courses and later became a successful engineer.  
And Yes, she also had a baby, which her boyfriend took care of during the day.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Jaylinbridges

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Missing from this discussion entirely is the concept of paying for Performance.  Equal work in the same job does not equal the same Performance.  The companies I worked for, and managed technical groups, all used 3 month performance reviews to determine salary increases if any.  Of course there were rather large gaps between some of the employees all doing the same work

this can be a careful what you wish for situation

when a team member gets paid more than another team member, with the only distinction between the team members being remuneration, then the boss tends to load up all the hard jobs, and out of scope attributes, onto the first team member. On the simple basis that we (the employer) pay you more

the second team member gets all the easy, non-demanding, work as befits the boss' understanding of the second team member's capabilities. The second team member doesn't grow, and more importantly is never pushed to grow.  The first team member gets fed up (no matter how much they get paid), leaves and the team can't deliver the difficult jobs because there is no one left on the team capable of doing it

even worse is when the first team member (paid to deliver) is unable to deliver. The whole team is sunk, and the employer is still paying out

if we want to pay a team member more, then we give them additional responsibilities. Like sub/team leader, preceptor/coach to junior team members, etc

team leader, 2IC, sub-team leader, junior team preceptor, junior team coach are out of scope attributes formally brought in to scope. In scope attributes/responsibilities build the team as a whole - whole team leadership. Leadership that comes with extra pay and formal recognition of the role(s) by the employer 

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

11 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

You have the right to discuss your pay with whomever you choose.  It's actually illegal in the US for.them to even have a rule against discussing it.  This might have come about because companies were.making rules and retaliating.

I didn't know about this change and was excited to hear about it, so I wanted to see when it became the law. Obama signed it into law in 2014 but it's only for federal contractors!!?? Bleh!  4 in 10 contractors are private, so that is much less protection than I'd hoped for.

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

12 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Doesn't that sort of reinforce the notion that it's not gender related though? At least in your example?

It's both gender and racial discrimination.

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

7 hours ago, Mollymews said:

this can be a careful what you wish for situation

when a team member gets paid more than another team member, with the only distinction between the team members being remuneration, then the boss tends to load up all the hard jobs, and out of scope attributes, onto the first team member. On the simple basis that we (the employer) pay you more

the second team member gets all the easy, non-demanding, work as befits the boss' understanding of the second team member's capabilities. The second team member doesn't grow, and more importantly is never pushed to grow.  The first team member gets fed up (no matter how much they get paid), leaves and the team can't deliver the difficult jobs because there is no one left on the team capable of doing it

even worse is when the first team member (paid to deliver) is unable to deliver. The whole team is sunk, and the employer is still paying out

if we want to pay a team member more, then we give them additional responsibilities. Like sub/team leader, preceptor/coach to junior team members, etc

team leader, 2IC, sub-team leader, junior team preceptor, junior team coach are out of scope attributes formally brought in to scope. In scope attributes/responsibilities build the team as a whole - whole team leadership. Leadership that comes with extra pay and formal recognition of the role(s) by the employer 

I like this team approach. Is it used much in the US do you know?

[Rowan Amore]

16 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

I didn't know about this change and was excited to hear about it, so I wanted to see when it became the law. Obama signed it into law in 2014 but it's only for federal contractors!!?? Bleh!  4 in 10 contractors are private, so that is much less protection than I'd hoped for.

I didn't seem to find where your info was located.  I got mine from the NLRB website...Your Right to Discuss Wages | National Labor Relations Board (nlrb.gov)

 

Jurisdictional Standards | National Labor Relations Board (nlrb.gov)

 

If you are an employee covered by the Act, you may discuss wages in face-to-face conversations and written messages.  When using electronic communications, like social media, keep in mind that your employer may have policies against using their equipment.  However, policies that specifically prohibit the discussion of wages are unlawful.  

 

 

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Performance reviews and salary increases. Ahhh, that's before my time. 😂 Kidding (sorta).

Oh btw, this is kind of interesting - Focusrite (the parent company of Novation, for all of you audio engineering and electronic music production nerds out there) put out their first gender pay gap report for 2021. I really appreciate the transparency. It seems like they've been actively working to reduce the gap in their own companies (which is difficult to begin with, considering the audio engineering industry is quite male dominated overall).

https://focusriteplc.com/sites/plc/files/documents/FocusritePLC-GenderPayGap_0.pdf

And here's the page that comes from - https://focusriteplc.com/diversity-and-inclusion

[Ayashe Ninetails]

8 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I didn't seem to find where your info was located.  I got mine from the NLRB website...Your Right to Discuss Wages | National Labor Relations Board (nlrb.gov)

 

Jurisdictional Standards | National Labor Relations Board (nlrb.gov)

 

If you are an employee covered by the Act, you may discuss wages in face-to-face conversations and written messages.  When using electronic communications, like social media, keep in mind that your employer may have policies against using their equipment.  However, policies that specifically prohibit the discussion of wages are unlawful.  

Yup, you're very right that it's illegal. I believe what I was experiencing falls under "pay secrecy" - still very illegal, but companies still got away with it because most employees on the job didn't know how illegal that crap was.

 

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20210708-pay-secrecy-why-some-workers-cant-discuss-salaries

"In many sectors in the US, a combination of longstanding taboos and company policies keep people from discussing how much money they make – a phenomenon known as 'pay secrecy'. Despite legislation that prohibits companies from punishing workers who disclose their pay, many people still work in environments where they don’t or can’t talk about money – something that has profound knock-on effects on wage equality. "

 

Older article: https://www.npr.org/2014/04/13/301989789/pay-secrecy-policies-at-work-often-illegal-and-misunderstood

"A 2011 survey from the Institute for Women's Policy Research found that about half of workers "report that the discussion of wage and salary information is either discouraged or prohibited and/or could lead to punishment."

"A survey of private-sector employers from 2001 found that more than one-third had specific policies that banned workers from talking about their compensation with their co-workers."

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

I didn't seem to find where your info was located.  I got mine from the NLRB website...Your Right to Discuss Wages | National Labor Relations Board (nlrb.gov)

It appears the NRLA you mentioned (National Labor relations Act, https://www.nlrb.gov/guidance/key-reference-materials/national-labor-relations-act) is from 1935, and did not cover federal contractors until Obama signed an executive order in 2014.  Because it only mentioned federal contractors in the 2014 executive order I thought the law only applied to federal contractors (and not private ones), but it's actually federal contractors who had been exempt and so needed an executive order from Obama to rectify the situation. Somehow, federal contractors were able to skirt the 1935 law saying it was illegal for everyone, until the 2014 executive order.

"This year, President Obama issued an executive order preventing businesses that are awarded federal contracts from retaliating against employees who discuss their wages with each other. Prior to this executive order prohibiting retaliation for employees being transparent regarding their pay, an employer (that has more than $10,000 in annual federal contract work) could prohibit employees from discussing their wages with each other".

Obama's executive order in 2014:

https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/small-business/what-you-need-to-know-about-obamas-pay-transparency-executive-order/

https://www.dentons.com/en/insights/alerts/2014/april/9/president-obama-signs-two-more-orders-aimed-at-federal-contractor-pay-practices

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ofccp/faqs/pay-transparency

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-41/subtitle-B/chapter-60/part-60-1

****
However, it gets even more complicated (doesn't everything!  ) and appears not everyone is covered!

"Employers not covered by the NLRA or the Federal contractor executive order include municipal governments and religious schools. Workers in those institutions are subject to the policies of their respective employers and may be unable to discuss pay levels".

https://www.govdocs.com/can-employees-discuss-pay-salaries/

Edited June 29, 2022 by Kiera Clutterbuck

[Ceka Cianci]

12 hours ago, Mollymews said:

this can be a careful what you wish for situation

when a team member gets paid more than another team member, with the only distinction between the team members being remuneration, then the boss tends to load up all the hard jobs, and out of scope attributes, onto the first team member. On the simple basis that we (the employer) pay you more

the second team member gets all the easy, non-demanding, work as befits the boss' understanding of the second team member's capabilities. The second team member doesn't grow, and more importantly is never pushed to grow.  The first team member gets fed up (no matter how much they get paid), leaves and the team can't deliver the difficult jobs because there is no one left on the team capable of doing it

even worse is when the first team member (paid to deliver) is unable to deliver. The whole team is sunk, and the employer is still paying out

if we want to pay a team member more, then we give them additional responsibilities. Like sub/team leader, preceptor/coach to junior team members, etc

team leader, 2IC, sub-team leader, junior team preceptor, junior team coach are out of scope attributes formally brought in to scope. In scope attributes/responsibilities build the team as a whole - whole team leadership. Leadership that comes with extra pay and formal recognition of the role(s) by the employer 

THIS!!!!

 

Bleh, this sounds so much like my job, let alone how they do things at my work.

you end up with getting bumped as they call it , but really it's just more workload..

You end up with 4 or five job titles never leaving any of them and having to do 4 or 5 different jobs while earning one salary which never ads up to the amount you end up having to do..

Meanwhile just as qualified people stand around watching you do the extra work load..

This is one of the big reasons I'm looking for another job on top of many other reasons.. Let alone, not counting how they have handled my work injury, but i was already beyond the point of return before that happened.. I would have been long gone if I didn't get hurt.. There isn't a number they could coem up with unless it was one year lifetime payment of never having to work again amount of money..

I swear this job just won't let me go. it actually keeps pulling me back in!

 

ETA: We need a, THIS!!!! button , because liking a post sometimes just isn't enough..

I had to come back in and add the , THIS!!! because  your post reminded me so much of my job that it distracted me from doing a, THIS!!!

 hehehehe

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Silent Mistwalker]

7 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I swear this job just won't let me go. it actually keeps pulling me back in!

Let go of the rope! ☺️

 

[Ceka Cianci]

Just now, Silent Mistwalker said:

Let go of the rope! ☺️

 

I would but until I'm released from the medical, Nobody else will hire me..

They know I want to leave too..

If I quit then I'm screwed.. staying I'm screwed.. But leaving would be like major screwed getting something I want.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

11 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

THIS!!!!

Bleh, this sounds so much like my job, let alone how they do things at my work.

you end up with getting bumped as they call it , but really it's just more workload..

You end up with 4 or five job titles never leaving any of them and having to do 4 or 5 different jobs while earning one salary which never ads up to the amount you end up having to do..

Meanwhile just as qualified people stand around watching you do the extra work load..

You're describing every job I've ever had. Ain't that a...blargh? In my case, the salary was never increased, either. They just piled the work on me as people quit, refused to replace them, and kept my pay the exact same. The instant I stopped being able to keep up with the extra workload (not getting certain tasks done by a certain time because I was doing the work of 3 different people in 3 different departments in addition to my own job), it was an immediate problem that required being on the receiving end of a good talking-to. Once that happens, I tend to quit. Like, walk right out the door quit. Now you've got to hire 4 people at once, have fun, it's been real!

The most insane example of this (minus disciplinary action - I actually handled the job okay but talk about freaking pressure) was being given the job of the Vice President of Finance during a month-long leave. I was working as a data entry temp in the finance department and audit time rolled around just as the VP had to take a medical leave. The CEO, CFO, and VP pulled me into an office and said hey we trust you more than anyone else and you're a fast learner - you think you can handle gathering the data and prepping the paperwork for our external audit? The VP will teach you everything she knows before she goes out on leave.

Me: Uh....erm...I uh...I'm terrible at math guys. This is BAD ideas!!!

Them: IT'LL BE FINE don't worry! You only have to reconcile half a million dollars and prep all the charts and spreadsheets, what could go wronnnng? Plus the CFO will be here ... well ok he doesn't know what's going on at all but he'll provide moral support you've got this!!!!

Me: 😲

Yeah....how I didn't stroke out during that process I'll never know (we passed the audit and every cent was accounted for). I probably should've demanded to be hired officially and made co-Vice President as thanks for my service tbh, but I'm bad at playing the long game, I guess.

[Silent Mistwalker]

43 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I would but until I'm released from the medical, Nobody else will hire me..

They know I want to leave too..

If I quit then I'm screwed.. staying I'm screwed.. But leaving would be like major screwed getting something I want.

[Ceka Cianci]

17 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

You're describing every job I've ever had. Ain't that a...blargh? In my case, the salary was never increased, either. They just piled the work on me as people quit, refused to replace them, and kept my pay the exact same. The instant I stopped being able to keep up with the extra workload (not getting certain tasks done by a certain time because I was doing the work of 3 different people in 3 different departments in addition to my own job), it was an immediate problem that required being on the receiving end of a good talking-to. Once that happens, I tend to quit. Like, walk right out the door quit. Now you've got to hire 4 people at once, have fun, it's been real!

The most insane example of this (minus disciplinary action - I actually handled the job okay but talk about freaking pressure) was being given the job of the Vice President of Finance during a month-long leave. I was working as a data entry temp in the finance department and audit time rolled around just as the VP had to take a medical leave. The CEO, CFO, and VP pulled me into an office and said hey we trust you more than anyone else and you're a fast learner - you think you can handle gathering the data and prepping the paperwork for our external audit? The VP will teach you everything she knows before she goes out on leave.

Me: Uh....erm...I uh...I'm terrible at math guys. This is BAD ideas!!!

Them: IT'LL BE FINE don't worry! You only have to reconcile half a million dollars and prep all the charts and spreadsheets, what could go wronnnng? Plus the CFO will be here ... well ok he doesn't know what's going on at all but he'll provide moral support you've got this!!!!

Me: 😲

Yeah....how I didn't stroke out during that process I'll never know (we passed the audit and every cent was accounted for). I probably should've demanded to be hired officially and made co-Vice President as thanks for my service tbh, but I'm bad at playing the long game, I guess.

Ya, The thing I had going for me was, they were losing people left and right so they really didn't have the leverage on their side..

I forget how many so called promotions and how many raises.. like 7 or something like that raises, just last summer.. lol

I used to keep track but don't even care anymore.. Since the new company has taken over all that has been a constant on my mind is ,where do I want to go.. Even before the bumps and raises..

They fired like 600 employees during the covid shut down through email.. that was my straw to the camels back.

Many needed to go, but so many didn't ..it was like they used a sickle and just cut heads.. I knew we were in trouble then.

Even before they started to bump me up or give me more money, I was already ready to get out of there..

Should have quit while I was ahead..

 

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

12 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Finally! You laughed!

I was coming back to edit in something about you were just going along for the ride, but I think you got it! By George! 😁

@Ceka Cianci

Edited June 29, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker