The Second Life Mission Discussion

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The collected and compiled data is easily sufficient to link a buyer to your real identity .. and even have reporters show up at your house to congratulate you on your pregnancy.

We need a scary emoticon.

[Nalates Urriah]

1 minute ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

We need a scary emoticon.

I agree. Actually there are several more icons I would like to see. But the Lindens know the SL residents are generally way overly creative and find ways to abuse anything. So I suspect only the most innocuous icons would even be considered.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The collected and compiled data is easily sufficient to link a buyer to your real identity .. and even have reporters show up at your house to congratulate you on your pregnancy.

I've certainly heard of instances, relating I think specifically to Facebook, where women who didn't yet themselves know they were pregnant were being targeted by ads for products and services related to pregnancy on the basis of search history and such.

I think I noted somewhere else that the head of an institute for the study of online data collection had recommended that all women (presumably, she meant just in the US, but that wasn't clear) immediately delete any apps they might use relating to their cycle. And clean their data trail, if they can. Sadly, I don't think that's going to be sufficient: there are so many ways to triangulate and analyze data from multiple sources now, as you say.

It's almost as though the Web 2.0 has suddenly become yet another unsafe place for women to be.

[Paul Hexem]

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Not sure that has any relevance to the topic. There's a big difference between being able to write a 3D modeling application and being able to create something in it.

 

1 hour ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

In the US at least, over 60% of creatives in the design industry are women (according to the American Institute of Graphic Arts). I don't have stats on 3D design, though. That might be a whole other ballgame, but I'm not as familiar with that area.

Obviously, far fewer women in leadership roles, but I'm still kind of surprised by the number in general. I did have a loooot of women in my design classes in the early 2000s, but it didn't really hit me at the time, I guess.

https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/women-make-up-more-than-half-of-the-design-industry-but-how-do-they-get-to-the-top

"According to the 2019 AIGA Design Census, 61% of designers working today are women. The rate of female creative directors across the industry rose from 3% in 2008 to 29% today."

Fair points. 

[Rolig Loon]

48 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I've certainly heard of instances, relating I think specifically to Facebook, where women who didn't yet themselves know they were pregnant were being targeted by ads for products and services related to pregnancy on the basis of search history and such.

Yes.  That's been well documented. Here's an article from Forbes... https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/?sh=7db3df6e6668

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

Yes.  That's been well documented. Here's an article from Forbes... https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/?sh=7db3df6e6668

Well, that's utterly terrifying.

[Madelaine McMasters]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

10 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

Yes.  That's been well documented. Here's an article from Forbes... https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/?sh=7db3df6e6668

Well, that's utterly terrifying.

...perks...

https://axbom.com/keystroke-dynamics/

[Paul Hexem]

Oh, that topic again. Here comes the lock!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

...perks...

https://axbom.com/keystroke-dynamics/

Yeeesh. Stop it already!

(My partner comments when he hears me engaging in what he calls "my angry typing." Apparently I hit the keys particularly hard and rapidly when I'm agitated. It's been known to wake him up. I've taken to tiptoeing across my keyboard.)

[Scylla Rhiadra]

9 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Oh, that topic again. Here comes the lock!

What topic is that?

Women?👩

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

10 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Oh, that topic again. Here comes the lock!

What topic is that?

Women?👩

Women being pregnant or having babies ain't the same as "that other topic".  So there!

Fun fact: Everybody has a mother, even if it's just an egg / nucleus / blastocyst donor! 

[Miguel Rowley]

6 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

 As it stands in the world, men earn more for the same jobs women do because there is prejudice against women in RL. 

That's 100% a lie.

First off, the claims about that study are completely flawed, which didn't took account to the amount of hours that each gender worked.

For the people that aren't aware of this study, it pretty much states that most women work less hours then men on the same jobs, which made people with a agenda claiming there is a gender pay gap, when in fact the REAL reason why men with the same jobs are earning more in that study was because they are working more hours than women.

 

And second, Gender-based pay discrimination is illegal since 1963. So if a company does that, they are breaking the law and they can be sued for that.

Edited June 27, 2022 by IGarrett

[Paul Hexem]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What topic is that?

Women?👩

I mean, blaming women for all the problems on the forums here isn't my first thought, but I certainly won't argue otherwise!

[Innula Zenovka]

1 hour ago, Rolig Loon said:

Yes.  That's been well documented. Here's an article from Forbes... https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/?sh=7db3df6e6668

As I understand it, advertising algorithms aren't always quite as spookily accurate as that case.   Targeted advertising like that is based on other customers' previous purchasing patterns rather than any deep psychological insights, and the targeting doesn't need to be terribly accurate.  It just needs to be more accurate than sending out offers randomly.

Think about Amazon's suggestions, based on your previous purchases and browsing habits.   Sometimes they're spot on, and more often than not they're wildly out, but that doesn't matter, so long as they're more accurate than pure chance.

Sometimes, as with the young woman in that story, they're scarily spot on, but we don't get to hear about the number of Target customers who were left scratching their heads as to why they were being sent offers on baby products when there was no chance of their being about to start a family.

Facebook and their data mining is a bit different, since they're in position to keep track of so many of your online activities and, as the Cambridge Analytica affair demonstrated, are able to offer advertisers very finely filtered target lists, but I don't think big stores are such a worry.

1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

...perks...

https://axbom.com/keystroke-dynamics/

An old friend of my parents had been a radio operator for RAF intelligence during WW2, receiving Morse messages from agents in occupied Europe and transcribing them for decoding.   She said they were trained to watch for agents' distinctive Morse signatures -- the speed and rhythm at which they send their keystrokes -- and to report any variations from the normal signature because this raised the strong possibility that the agent had been captured and the signal was either being sent under duress or that the equipment and codebooks had fallen into enemy hands by some other method.   

Similarly, my father, who worked as a telegraph clerk in the Post Office as a young man, said that the operators always knew who as on duty at particular offices at particular times because they could recognise their unique signature.

 

[diamond Marchant]

16 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Don't let Gaston see or listen to these...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/upshot/college-admissions-men.html

https://freakonomics.com/podcast/what-is-the-future-of-college-and-does-it-have-room-for-men/

[Scylla Rhiadra]

34 minutes ago, IGarrett said:

That's 100% a lie.

First off, the claims about that study are completely flawed, which didn't took account to the amount of hours that each gender worked.

For the people that aren't aware of this study, it pretty much states that most women work less hours then men on the same jobs, which made people with a agenda claiming there is a gender pay gap, when in fact the REAL reason why men with the same jobs are earning more in that study was because they are working more hours then women.

 

And second, Gender-based pay discrimination is illegal since 1963. So if a company does that, they are breaking the law and they can be sued for that.

Well, to begin with, it's not "a study" -- it's actually the result of decades of analysis and data, drawn from a really wide range of national, geographical, and national studies, and investigated in almost countless academic and institutional studies. A huge amount of data on this subject has been amassed, and it has been subjected to examination, interrogation, and peer review in thousands of "studies" and analyses.

The subject is, of course, more complicated than it sounds from Luna's remark -- although, in substance, she is correct. Your remark that hours worked is one of the factors in the pay equity gap is also true -- partially -- but it doesn't account for the many gendered reasons that women often don't work the same number of hours as men: these include things like the fact that women are more likely to be the primary caregiver of children, and so more likely to work part-time, as well as the fact that maternity leave frequently ends up restricting job and advancement opportunities for women. Women in effect are often financially penalized for the fact that they are the ones who get pregnant, give birth, and do the bulk of the childcare.

Also at issue is the fact that many highly-paid careers tend not to be as open to women; traditional areas of "women's work" are generally not paid as well.

So, it's a very complicated issue, with a really broad range of factors to blame, many of which are not addressed by current legislation. If it is true that Luna's aside is too brief to account for that complexity, it's also true that your response doesn't come close to reflecting the full reality of the reasons for the pay equity gap.

Can I recommend this web site: it's Canadian, but the issues it identifies are generally applicable in all G7 nations. Please note that it is fully referenced with statistical sources and studies.

[Rowan Amore]

52 minutes ago, IGarrett said:

That's 100% a lie.

First off, the claims about that study are completely flawed, which didn't took account to the amount of hours that each gender worked.

For the people that aren't aware of this study, it pretty much states that most women work less hours then men on the same jobs, which made people with a agenda claiming there is a gender pay gap, when in fact the REAL reason why men with the same jobs are earning more in that study was because they are working more hours then women.

 

And second, Gender-based pay discrimination is illegal since 1963. So if a company does that, they are breaking the law and they can be sued for that.

However, this doesn't take into account the REASONS why women work fewer hours.  There are more women in single parent households so they can't except overtime or extended work schedules.  Even in 2 parent households with children, women are generally the ones doing the majority of child centered activities.  Dad can work.late or on the weekend because mom is doing all the child care duties.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Rowan Amore

[Scylla Rhiadra]

36 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

I mean, blaming women for all the problems on the forums

ONLY on the forums?

Pfffft. We're WAY more trouble than that.

[Miguel Rowley]

25 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Can I recommend this web site: it's Canadian, but the issues it identifies are generally applicable in all G7 nations. Please note that it is fully referenced with statistical sources and studies.

Thanks for the website, i'll take a look at it later.

 

25 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The subject is, of course, more complicated than it sounds from Luna's remark -- although, in substance, she is correct. Your remark that hours worked is one of the factors in the pay equity gap is also true -- partially -- but it doesn't account for the many gendered reasons that women often don't work the same number of hours as men: these include things like the fact that women are more likely to be the primary caregiver of children, and so more likely to work part-time, as well as the fact that maternity leave frequently ends up restricting job and advancement opportunities for women. Women in effect are often financially penalized for the fact that they are the ones who get pregnant, give birth, and do the bulk of the childcare.

But a woman having less time to work because of the children has nothing to do with the gender pay gap, at the moment that she started working the same amount of hours as a man, she would start getting paid the same as well, assuming that everyone had the same job and responsabilities. A woman receiving less than a man for working less hours isn't Gender-based pay discrimination, and yes getting paid for the hours that you worked.

Here's a forbes article about it: https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2019/06/06/dispelling-myths-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by IGarrett

[Miguel Rowley]

17 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

However, this doesn't take into account the REASONS why women work fewer hours.  There are more women in single parent households so they can't except overtime or extended work schedules.  Even in 2 parent households with children, women are generally the ones doing the majority of child centered activities.  Dad can work.late or on the weekend because mom is doing all the child care duties.

But at the moment that you work less hours, is obvious that you are going to get paid less for someone that worked more hours. The reason why you aren't working more hours doesn't matter. That's like saying that I can't work today because I have to take my car to a mechanic and expecting to get paid the hours of the day I wasn't working.

It's like I said above, your getting paid for the hours that you worked, that's not gender-based pay discrimination

Edited June 27, 2022 by IGarrett

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, IGarrett said:

Thanks for the website, i'll take a look at it later.

 

But a woman having less time to work because of the children has nothing to do with the gender pay gap, at the moment that she started working the same amount of hours as a man, she would start getting paid the same as well, assuming that everyone had the same job and responsabilities. A woman receiving less than a man for working less hours isn't Gender-based pay discrimination, and yes getting paid for the hours that you worked.

Here's a forbes article about it: https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2019/06/06/dispelling-myths-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

 

 

But it is if the reason you are not working the same hours is because you are a woman.

I take your point, but, again, it's more complex than merely "women don't work as much." In my place of employment, women get occasional bonuses in order to bring their average wages up to the rate of men -- and this is in a salaried job, not one based upon hours worked. In other words, hours worked isn't a factor, and yet women are statistically still being paid less for (in this instance) exactly the same work.

The document I cite also notes that "in its 10-year analysis, Statistics Canada (2018) notes that nearly two-thirds of the studied gender pay gap is unexplained. For this portion, possible explanations include gender differences in work experience, 'as well as unobservable factors, such as any gender-related biases.'"

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, IGarrett said:

The reason why you aren't working more hours doesn't matter. That's like saying that I can't work today because I have to take my car to a mechanic and expecting to get paid the hours of the day I wasn't working.

But taking your car to a mechanic isn't a gendered activity. Pregnancy, maternity leave, and childcare are.

I should note that in my country, men are now eligible for paid paternity leave as well. That is a great thing.

[Rowan Amore]

6 minutes ago, IGarrett said:

But at the moment that you work less hours, is obvious that you are going to get paid less for someone that worked more hours. The reason why you aren't working more hours doesn't matter. That's like saying that I can't work today because I have to take my car to a mechanic and expecting to get paid the hours of the day I wasn't working.

It's like I said above, your getting paid for the hours that you worked, that's not gender-based pay discrimination

https://www.sanfordjournal.org/sjpp/2016/wage-gap-vs-earnings-gap

[Cali Souther]

Equality is a wonderful vision / goal.   Obviously,  that comes second to making money - which is their #1 goal.

I see equality like I do world peace - We all want it,  but can't figure out how to get there.

 

[Paul Hexem]

19 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

ONLY on the forums?

Pfffft. We're WAY more trouble than that.

Hey, as long as I'm not the one saying it...