Bellisseria to Blake Sea via Protected Water - Why is it still incomplete?

[diamond Marchant]

Seems like an obvious thing to do.

Edited March 16, 2022 by diamond Marchant

[animats]

The southern tip of Satori is tough for travel. The water areas are private and have obstacles and ban lines.

As far as you can go on the west coast of Satori. Even if you can get past the orb within 10 seconds, the rock wall goes all the way to the edge of the world.

The roads in Satori stop before reaching the southern tip. Someone built a railroad to a dock at the southern tip, but it's not finished, and they apparently had to leave SL for health reasons. You can dock in Yeowler, walk the tracks to Bagheera, then walk from the station to Route 8, where there is a rez zone.

South Satori RR. Unfinished, and no rez zones on the tracks, but SLRR standard guides are in place. So if you can get a train onto the track, it will run.

Even trying to fly over south Satori is tough, due to aggressive security orbs and ban lines. The west coast of Satori has two 10-second security orbs and one no-warning orb.

 

[Eowyn Southmoor]

It's incomplete because Bellisseria isn't finished yet  

Unlike previous themes, the Newbrooke theme hasn't been released all at once - possibly due to the backlash LL received over it when it was first unveiled (pure conjecture on my part). This, combined with the fact that there are more parcels on each Newbrooke region, means that this theme will take up less space on the grid that themes like the Chalet or Log homes, which in turn means that even completed, Newbrooke might not bridge the gap to Satori (as I and others predicted).

However, my understanding is that the next theme is well along in its development, so in all likelihood maybe it's that theme what will finally give us the protected waterway. Either way, the fact that LL cleared out all those private regions from the area still indicates that Bellisseria will expand into the predicted area - it might just take a little longer that previously expected

Re: flying over southern Satori - it's not remotely difficult. I've made over 50 trips there now, and all i encounter on the way is one 30 second orb, and one 45 second orb. Heck you can even drive down to the Yeeowler region quite easily then switch to an aircraft or boat.

 

[diamond Marchant]

On 3/16/2022 at 8:43 PM, Eowyn Southmoor said:

It's incomplete because Bellisseria isn't finished yet  

I wish it were so. The Linden Lab as represented by Patch has never said that the completion of Belli would include a protected water connection to the Blake. At SL18B he declined to make any commitment. The next day, Grumpity seconded that emotion. 🙁

[Aethelwine]

It would be such a huge missed opportunity if they don't ultimately provide that link, that it is hard to believe that they would get so close and then not do it.

Those missing 18 regions would probably double the amount of water Bellisserians have access to.

And the Houseboats and now the Stilts seem to be the most popular Bellisserian homes, consistently hardest to get.

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Eowyn Southmoor]

Historically, LL have looked after the sailing community quite well, otherwise we wouldn't have the Blake Sea, or the many other Straits and waterways that either link continents or are inside continents. Technically, none of those need to exist - so in my opinion they are there because LL do value the sailing community.

However, the days of just adding dozens upon dozens of empty water regions appear to be over, presumably because these are an additional cost to LL for which there is no financial benefit. This doesn't mean though that sailors wont be able to reach Bellisseria from the Blake sea, it just means the way it's likely to be done isn't quite quite what some people expect.

Look at the west coast of the Trad and Vic areas - you can sail south down there, but they aren't empty water regions, they are regions which also contain numerous homes- homes occupied by paying customers.  This is likely to be how they bridge that last gap to the western Satori coast. 

A coastline of whatever theme, heading up north just out of reach of Satori, then finally joining up to the protected water region as indicated in the OP  (though from seeing the area cleared out, I think the join will be higher up).  Doing it this way means LL might only need to add one or two empty water regions, the rest of the coast will be partially full of homes.  Sailors get their waterway, and LL get some income from the regions - everybody wins.

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

On 3/16/2022 at 11:43 PM, Eowyn Southmoor said:

the Newbrooke theme hasn't been released all at once - possibly due to the backlash LL received over it when it was first unveiled

People didn't like the modern homes?

[Setsuki Takeda]

It's frustrating trying to sail around the south end of Satori, LL sold the whole sims on the water right up to the edge, so while there are nice sections of waterways people have made when renting out the beach parcels behind them you'll eventually run into "X & Y's house!" with a whitelist ban line or a 0 second orb or something else. They made the mistake of *not* keeping a protected coastline on the mainland, which wouldn't keep them from selling the beaches to just have a chunk of it along the outside that isn't for sale, most of them have huge chunks of empty land toward the interior and the owned parcels are crowded along the coast blocking the ability to sail from Bellesaria up to Blake Sea when if they were all just moved in my 10-20m you could fit pretty much any boat (maybe not one of those BBX floating sims, but any actual boat that doesn't look like it should have Disney on Ice taking place on the deck) through all the way.

[diamond Marchant]

6 hours ago, NanashiNyx said:

They made the mistake of *not* keeping a protected coastline on the mainland

This is true, however, I would call it failure to plan for the future. I created the map below in 2010 to show what was connected to the Blake Sea. Back then you could not sail further west than Rodel and could hardly go south at all.

Of course, the Lindens could create a protected coastline from Imelza to Carver. Undoubtedly, some current land owners would object but others would rejoice at the windfall of newly minted valuable real estate. There is precedent. When Zindra was created, some rivers sections were built without protected water, for example, in Destonia. One day we were told that the parcels would be reduced to allow for a protected channel. Voila!

[Aethelwine]

It is interesting to me at least to see the 2010 map before Snug Harbor (2011 I think) and before the Grumphmunch Channel. 

[Aethelwine]

It would be interesting to see more maps from the years after to show additions over time. Second Norway - 2012/13? The Seychelles, Brookland, the opening up of North West Coast of Satori, links to Corsica etc

I have a map in my inventory of the USS sims from 2008, from before the Blake sea

Edited March 21, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Aethelwine]

Now I am home, Here is the map to compare with from 2008.

[Aethelwine]

Atlan Blades map from 2018 is a classic, would be nice to see ones for the intervening period

 

[Aethelwine]

All the maps got me interested. This one of an LCC cruise from May 2012 shows the addition of the original 5 Snug Harbor regions

 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 3/16/2022 at 2:59 PM, diamond Marchant said:

Seems like an obvious thing to do.

My first question about this question is: who owns the land in those areas who will benefit from the connection with higher priced rentals and land sales?

My second question is, the owners of the Blake Sea area already have the most lucrative land in SL, why do they need more? 

My third question is, why should the Lindens tier 18 regions they can't collect revenue on, it's like "corporate welfare" for the wealthy land barons who own in this area. 

I like Abnor Mole's approach to the question of adding sims and builds to SL that LL has to bear the cost of: if you want this, sent your billing information to Patch and see if you can come to an agreement about your payment for the regions and the Moles' time.

 

[diamond Marchant]

45 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

My first question about this question is: who owns the land in those areas who will benefit from the connection with higher priced rentals and land sales?

It is not obvious that anyone gains with higher priced rentals and land sales. The value of mainland parcels might stabilize or even go down, as Bellisserria parcels would now be Blake connected, increasing the supply of such parcels. Mainland water parcel prices are currently crazy high. For example, a 5120 sqm parcel in Poob with a mere 40m of beachfront and a small  harbor recently sold for L$237,902 (approx US$1000).

45 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

My second question is, the owners of the Blake Sea area already have the most lucrative land in SL, why do they need more? 

Owners of Blake Sea connected mainland parcels would be getting access to additional public protected water, not more land.

45 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

My third question is, why should the Lindens tier 18 regions they can't collect revenue on, it's like "corporate welfare" for the wealthy land barons who own in this area.

We expect that Satori would be connected to Bellisseria the same way that way Sansara was connected to Jeogeot, that is, by creation of Linden Home regions having protected water along one or more edges. It is likely that the Satori landowners in the stretch from Graybar to Carver would remain disconnected. Linden Lab would receive revenue from the regions and the value of the Second Life asset would increase through the creation of a public benefit.

Edited April 2, 2022 by diamond Marchant

[Coffee Pancake]

Wake me up when we can sail from Zindra to anywhere.

[Mollymews]

On 3/17/2022 at 7:59 AM, diamond Marchant said:

Seems like an obvious thing to do.

 

if the demand for Linden Homes keeps up as it has been then that whole area north could fill up with homes.  The north and east side of Rosebud Hill region shows that estate is incomplete. Same all the way along the north regions west to Newbank region

so I think just have to be patient and hope the demand for homes continues. As if/when so then am pretty sure Linden will put in the joining water regions alongside

[Prokofy Neva]

16 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

It is not obvious that anyone gains with higher priced rentals and land sales. The value of mainland parcels might stabilize or even go down, as Bellisserria parcels would now be Blake connected, increasing the supply of such parcels. Mainland water parcel prices are currently crazy high. For example, a 5120 sqm parcel in Poob with a mere 40m of beachfront and a small  harbor recently sold for L$237,902 (approx US$1000).

Owners of Blake Sea connected mainland parcels would be getting access to additional public protected water, not more land.

We expect that Satori would be connected to Bellisseria the same way that way Sansara was connected to Jeogeot, that is, by creation of Linden Home regions having protected water along one or more edges. It is likely that the Satori landowners in the stretch from Graybar to Carver would remain disconnected. Linden Lab would receive revenue from the regions and the value of the Second Life asset would increase through the creation of a public benefit.

I'm not getting where you are coming from with all this.

Of course land owners in or near connected continents gain, because sailing is a highly prized activity, and renting or buying land to sail from has extremely high value in SL. It's not that there is some parcel selling for $1000; it's that there are entire regions selling for US $8,000, and I saw one auction go by where the highest bidder paid over US $1000, came inworld and abandoned half of the tract, thereby wasting US $500, and then sold/rented the remainder which evidently more than covered his lost $500. I mean, he didn't even sell it for $10 or $20 m where it would have sold (hind land).

I don't know why you are claiming that if land dealers get "more access to public protected water" and "not land" that they don't have an increased value of their existing land holdings near that water. Of course they do. Protected Linden water is highly prized, so Lindens, if they insert 18 sims that they pay for, are helping out their friends in the high-volume land business. And why shouldn't they, it's their source of revenue. Yet they have repeatedly said they don't want the outlay of expense and PS the customer service tickets that add on when those sims are laggy, down, whatever. 

Who is the "we" doing the "expecting"? Those of us who have had land in the Old World of Sansara in the Hidden Lakes area (Furness, Alston, Maryport, Ravenglass) might have "expected" that by now, the Lindens would fill in the water between the orientation and newbie landing areas and our land, so it is sailable and those newbies can reach our land with whatever offerings we have for newbies. Or we could "expect" that coast along Furness etc would be filled in so those waterfront parcels actually have a place to sail in. But 18 years later, I think our "expectations" are no longer "live," as we are not at the "growing tip" of SL. Are you?

This idea that the value of Second Life increases in some abstract way "for the public" is for the birds. Whose public? The sailing public? That buys or rents expensive waterfront land? Why is either the Lab or the general public required to sustain this? This sailing land becomes crowded, races are held etc and we are in fact encouraged to stay away from it.

[Prokofy Neva]

4 hours ago, Mollymews said:

if the demand for Linden Homes keeps up as it has been then that whole area north could fill up with homes.  The north and east side of Rosebud Hill region shows that estate is incomplete. Same all the way along the north regions west to Newbank region

so I think just have to be patient and hope the demand for homes continues. As if/when so then am pretty sure Linden will put in the joining water regions alongside

It's too bad we can't see the numbers of actual physical persons behind accounts, and determine if what is happening is that people with Lindens homes are discarding old ones and getting news ones, leaving behind dead regions with nobody on them and few houses taken. But of course, the Lindens have that information. And I'm not sure that they would conclude it is in their interest to stop creating new land because there aren't an awful lot of actual new people -- perhaps because they hold in reserve the plan to delete the oldest Linden  homes.

[Mollymews]

5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's too bad we can't see the numbers of actual physical persons behind accounts, and determine if what is happening is that people with Lindens homes are discarding old ones and getting news ones, leaving behind dead regions with nobody on them and few houses taken. But of course, the Lindens have that information. And I'm not sure that they would conclude it is in their interest to stop creating new land because there aren't an awful lot of actual new people -- perhaps because they hold in reserve the plan to delete the oldest Linden  homes.

yes there is this.  Whats the long term sustainability number of people currently playing Game of Homes on multiple accounts? 

i think Linden will/should/hopefully be tracking the numbers and the types of players and arrive at some total number of new Homes (bearing in mind also how many people are still in old Linden Homes and are yet to transfer to Belli). Linden don't want to end up with a vast new landmass which ends up half empty should interest in the Game of Homes wane

 

just add.  Game of Homes is not a bad thing in itself.  Is a form of up-selling to an existing customer base.  Revenue growth doesn't always have to come from user numbers growth

Edited April 3, 2022 by Mollymews

[Aethelwine]

7 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Who is the "we" doing the "expecting"? Those of us who have had land in the Old World of Sansara in the Hidden Lakes area (Furness, Alston, Maryport, Ravenglass) might have "expected" that by now, the Lindens would fill in the water between the orientation and newbie landing areas and our land, so it is sailable and those newbies can reach our land with whatever offerings we have for newbies. Or we could "expect" that coast along Furness etc would be filled in so those waterfront parcels actually have a place to sail in. But 18 years later, I think our "expectations" are no longer "live," as we are not at the "growing tip" of SL. Are you?

 

They are connected via Pooley aren't they? or do you mean filling in the voids West of Pooley?

A link from there to Henshaw or Tuvan would be good. The route along the West edge of Furness, has always been difficult on the corners. 

[Aethelwine]

7 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's too bad we can't see the numbers of actual physical persons behind accounts, and determine if what is happening is that people with Lindens homes are discarding old ones and getting news ones, leaving behind dead regions with nobody on them and few houses taken. But of course, the Lindens have that information. And I'm not sure that they would conclude it is in their interest to stop creating new land because there aren't an awful lot of actual new people -- perhaps because they hold in reserve the plan to delete the oldest Linden  homes.

What we can see though is that demand for Bellisserian homes with water access be they Houseboat or Stilts, still outstrips their availability.

It is another indicator besides land prices of the value of open waterways. Maybe the Lindens will eventually realise that not just providing links through Bellisseria will add value but looking back and making links elsewhere on mainland like between Alston and Tuvan would add more value than the cost. Maybe they will even go back to Zindra and complete the link between the North and South!

Edited April 3, 2022 by Aethelwine

[diamond Marchant]

Based on this recent surveillance it appears that another way to connect Bellisseria to Satori protected water is to go from Lavon (west of Buiffalo Springs) to the most recent 35 region Linden Homes addition, which appears to be continentally drifting to the northeast toward Satori. The protected water channels would be on the edges,

Edited April 4, 2022 by diamond Marchant

[FinickyDollop]

I am a huge fan of GTFO, and I would definitely utilize these potential connections. They would probably come in handy for long sailing or flying GTFO jobs.