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Why does SL de-list from the Market Place?


Sonya Bigboots
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I have just had an item delisted from the marketplace.

So what experience have other traders of making mistakes when listing items, so I don't make them too as having to relist items just wastes everybody's time - mine included.

 

--------------------

I edited this as I posted in haste initially. I've regained my saint-like equalibrium now :)

 



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I've said this before but your item should only be delisted if someone at LL agrees with the complaint against your listing.

Now whether LL actually do bother to check, is open to debate and plenty of people feel they don't,

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Well this complains will never stop until Lindens find a way to deal with properly.

I had one delisted for the keyword "stripper" in it, the outfit itself was pretty lame, a short sleeved top and hot pants. ALL covered :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

You can be sneaky and just put it back to what it was, whereas with bad bad keywords this would not work.

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Sonya Bigboots wrote:

I have just had an item delisted unfairly from the marketplace.

Apparently it should have been listed as adult becasue it depicted nudity.

It didn't.

 

Given the Linden staff don't bother following their own listing guidelines 
what has other traders experience been with items getting delisted unfairly from the marketplace?
What makes an item that is really "general" as per the guidelines get delisted unfairly on the grounds it should have been adult
?

 

All listings that have been flagged are reviewed by a Linden Lab employee with a Linden last name before the product is unlisted from the Marketplace.

if you believe that your product was unlisted incorrectly or you do not agree with the reson why your product was unlisted or blocked, you may submit a Support Case through the Support Portal using the Marketplace - Marketplace Listing Issues options and a member of Customer Support will be able to assist you further.

Please keep in mind that the Marketplace Listing Guidelines rule the web site.

The section regarding items that must be flagged as Adult Content specifically says nudity, including genitals and female nipples must be set to the Adult Maturity Rating level.

If any portion of the female nipple, including the aerola is visible, even behind "lace" type clothing, it must be set to the Adult Maturity Rating level.

Regards,

Dakota Linden
--
Linden Lab
SL Marketplace Customer Support
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/
http://www.secondlife.com

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@ Monti you were probably delisted for keyword spam using "stripper"? Today i did a search for fish related textures, 1 seller popped up alot in the results . That being said they had alot of textures that were not fish related, only one that I did see was. Keyword spam perhaps on the others? Suspected. Could be a lazy merchant cut and pasting keywords. Either way irritating for anyone when stuff not related to thier keyword search shows up.

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Well, I suppose it something that supposedly things like this are looked at by a Linden. I guess they are busy and don't have time to look at things in detail.

But most of us have busy real lives, and don't have time to time to fill out support tickets if they get it wrong... I never have used a support ticket and probably only would if something fairly major cropped up.

But having items delisted makes you wonder what is the point in taking time to create things? Then it takes time to amend the item and relist it.

Wouldn't it make more sense to simply change an items to adult content rather than delisting it, notify the creator of the change in rating, and give them chance to appeal if they thought the decision was unjust?

 

 

 

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Pending clarification from the Moderator, it is my present understanding that we are not to discuss flagging abuse, even if the flagger remains totally unnamed.

I actually have received a warning about this, and follow-up explaining that the post was not removed due to a specific word or group of words in the post.

What I'm expecting for the next warning is not to discuss the existence of secret rules.

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Sonya Bigboots wrote:

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to simply change an items to adult content rather than delisting it, notify the creator of the change in rating, and give them chance to appeal if they thought the decision was unjust?

  

Dakota will tell you this herself as she has done many times before, and maybe she's getting sick of it or is looking for where she stored her long explanation so that she can copy paste it here. But here is the gist of it - 

No, they won't do this because if they did then you would never learn. It's your responsibility. LL won't take the responsibility to amend listings. Read the TOS, it clearly states that LL will remove your listing if you do not place it in the correct category, and if you don't know how to do that then you must learn or suffer the consequences of being delisted. If LL helped you all the time then you and other merchants like you would only become lazier and lazier.

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>No, they won't do this because if they did then you would never learn. It's your responsibility

With the adult items, this makes sense because it's clear how to relist it.

But with things that are flagged for wrong category, why is it my responsibility to cycle them through every possible category until they stop getting flagged?

When I have exhausted every category, what then?

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The wrong catergory thing has happended to me too,

But some form of policing the categories is required as otherwise things could be listed here there and everywhere.

What would be useful though is a brief note telling you what the correct category is, as sometimes if you do not know a category exists it can be hard to find. I wonder if there is a list of all the available categories somewhere?

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In retrospect, I think I posted in haste - I've taken out the references to "unfair" out of the initial post- it would have been more accurate to say I did not understand why it was delisted when similar and much more explicit  items are listed as general in the marketplace.

 

 

 

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I assume that Linden Labs itself doesn't have a problem with "helping" merchants or assume everybody that makes a mistake once when listing an item is lazy with the ambition to get even lazier.

Sorry Rya, but that gross generalisation was uncalled for. There is a world of difference between somebody making a mistake once, and someone who habitually lists everything as general without even thinking about a maturity rating.

It is being de-listed without being told why in detail that annoys people. That's not being lazy - that's wanting the information you need to not repeat the same mistake again. I am sure the people at Linden Labs are smart enough to realise they need to encourage and empower creators, because it is the user-created content that is SL's unique selling point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The Moderator has now clarified that the specific problem with the post initially removed was that it was perceived to contain a threat.

This explains the rest of the confusion to my satisfaction.

The "threat" consisted of a statement that I would deal with the current flagger as I had dealt with flaggers in the past, but did not specify what that was; only that it had been very effective.

Had I been explicit about perviously having done anything outside my rights, I understood that that would have been a violation.

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Sonya Bigboots wrote:

Sorry Rya, but that gross generalisation was uncalled for. There is a world of difference between somebody making a mistake once, and someone who habitually lists everything as general without even thinking about a maturity rating.

It is being de-listed
without being told why
in
detail
that annoys people. That's not being lazy - that's wanting the information you need to not repeat the same mistake again. I am sure the people at Linden Labs are smart enough to realise they need to encourage and empower creators, because it is the user-created content that is SL's unique selling point. 

It isn't really my views. I'm quite neutral to the whole thing. And maybe lazy isn't the right word. But as I remember it, the response Dakota Linden gives when asked if LL can just fix the errors is pretty much as I said it.

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So how is delisting and removing an item from the market right when it was marked correctly?

Aisuru Bed 8.0 - 230 Couple Poses Unlimited 5250 Adult Removed under our Marketplace Listing Guidelinesfor Listing Not Flagged As Adult-Sexually Explicit Content.

As shown above....listed as Adult but removed from the market for Listing Not Flagged As Adult-Sexually Explicit Content??

Who is doing what here?

Something is very wrong with this scenario dont you think?

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Sonya Bigboots wrote:

The wrong catergory thing has happended to me too,

But some form of policing the categories is required as otherwise things could be listed here there and everywhere.

What would be useful though is a brief note telling you what the correct category is, as sometimes if you do not know a category exists it can be hard to find. I wonder if there is a list of all the available categories somewhere?

The idea of the system owner just placing an item in the correct category, or writing to the person telling them which is the correct category, and other such things, sounds good but it isn't. In one of your posts you mentioned the seller's time constraints. The system workers also have time constraints, so why should they be bothered to spend time sorting out the correct category, and/or writing to the person individually, when the person hasn't been bothered to spend the minutes it takes to find the correct category for him/herself?

I used to be an editor in the world's largest online human-edited directory, and I can say that many people are very good at not bothering to find the correct category for their listings so, if they can't bothered, why should the system workers be bothered?

I can understand being a bit miffed if an item is delisted for use of a word that wouldn't be considered to be 'wrong' but, even then, it's better to delist the item and inform the seller than to simply change the word - imo. Making the seller relist the item with an alternative word is a much better way for the seller to learn than to change the word and send an email, imo. It's similar to writing and reading. The learning is much better when the subject details have to be written down than when it is merely read. I'm not suggesting that LL do it that way so that people learn better - I don't believe they do. I believe they do it that way to simply use as little time on it as possible.

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I somewhat sypathize with LL in not wanting to pick categories for people.

But it seems wrong to me to allow someone to say that something is in the wrong category unless they will also say what they consider to be the correct category.

Most, if not all, of the suprious category flags could probably be prevented by requiring category flaggers to indicate a different category.

Would making that happen once be more work or less work than managing an eternity of complaints and abandoning endless numbers of commissions from items that can't be sold because they've been delisted by spurious flagging?

What could possibly be the advatage to LL of allowing people to flag anything, any time for any reason?

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I've been listing products to sell online for double more years than second life has been around.  I know exactly which category that item needs to be placed in, or I won't sell shizz.  I don't need a GD learning experience.

Customers do not have a problem with your listings category placement, but merchants with too much angst and too much time on their hands DO.

Will say this over and over again....the system needs to be corrected.

Linden Lab -

1) you do not have enough categories and you do not have sensible categories.  Fix that.

2) by letting some trigger happy angst mongers control the system, you are costing yourselves an ungodly amount of man hours dealing with petty BS.

3) Take Names.  And match up alts to mains.  Get rid of the abusers.  And spend your man hours on something much more productive.

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Lots of cogent points here Phil although I personally disagree with some of your assumptions.

Its when things fall into grey areas that additional guidance is needed. Its the people who have tried to post items correctly and have made a genuine mistake that deserve a little extra info to help them get it right in the future. 

That would stop people making the same mistakes repeatedly so reduce the load on the staff in the long-term which would be beneficial to Linden Labs. You can't expect people to learn from their mistakes if you don't tell them what it is they did wrong and point them in the right direction. In most cases just a few extra words of clarification and detail would be all that was needed. Most on-line systems allow automated messages to be edited or additional comments to be added quickly and easily in a few seconds.

And remember, what seems obvious to a member of staff can be confusing to an occasional user.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I must admit that I'm not familiar with the marketplace categories, or any grey areas that there may be, but there was a short discussion here not long ago, in which category levels were discussed. I know from experience that many people *want* their listings to be as high up the category tree as possible. After all, if there's a high level category for "houses", it's suitable for every house that's for sale. But if there is a lower level category for, say, "bungalows", then, even though a bungalow is a house, and would fit in the "houses" higher level category, it actually belongs is the lower level "bungalows" category and the "houses" category is the wrong place for it. That's one type of thing that I was meaning. In such cases, I really wouldn't tell the item's owner where to list it if it were me on the other end because the item was intentionally placed in the wrong category.

If there are grey areas, then the owner of an item that's in the wrong category *should* be given some specific information, AND the categories would need to be clearer. Could you give me an example of a grey area, please?

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I must admit that I'm not familiar with the marketplace categories, or any grey areas that there may be, but there was a short discussion here not long ago, in which category levels were discussed. I know from experience that many people *want* their listings to be as high up the category tree as possible. After all, if there's a high level category for "houses", it's suitable for every house that's for sale. But if there is a lower level category for, say, "bugalows", then, even though a bugalow is a house, and would fit in the "houses" higher level category, it actually belongs is the lower level "bugalows" category and the "houses" category is the wrong place for it. That's one type of thing that I was meaning. In such cases, I really wouldn't tell the item's owner where to list it if it were me on the other end because the item was intentionally placed in the wrong category.

If there are grey areas, then the owner of an item that's in the wrong category *should* be given some specific information, AND the categories would need to be clearer. Could you give me an example of a grey area, please?

 

This is the perfect example of users who do not read the Listing Guidelines that everyone agrees to comply with when they create a store and list content for sale on the Marketplace web site, and is the biggest single reason why products are unlisted for being in the wrong category.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines

"Category Guidelines

We have developed a taxonomy for categorizing items. This taxonomy enables prospective buyers to easily browse listings and find the right items in a straightforward manner. However, it only works well if all the items in the SL Marketplace are applied to appropriate categories. Use the following guidelines to decide which categories to apply your items to:

 

  • Select the most specific category that is appropriate for the item.
"

Examples
 

Item: Sailboat

Acceptable Category: Vehicles -> Water Vehicles -> Boats

Unacceptable Category: Vehicles -> Water Vehicles

Item: Set of 14 Couples Animations

Acceptable Category: Animations -> Animation Bundles or Animations -> Couples Animations

Unacceptable Category: Animations

If you are placing your "house" into the main Structures category, then the listing is in direct violation of the Listing Guidelines and the product _will_ be unlisted for being in the wrong category and it will be blocked if the issue is not corrected.

All houses should be in the Residential Structures Category, or the Multi-Purpose Structures Category, if it is designed to be used as a house/club/business.

No one likes to think or believe that there is a problem with their product, yet in 99.9999999% of the cases, their product is in violation of the Listing Guidelines.

Every product that is unlisted displays a message for the seller on the Marketplace web site with the name of the product and the reason why it was unlisted.

The seller can then review their listing and review the Listing Guidelines section for the issue to see exactly why their product was unlisted.

If they are unable to determine why their product was unlisted, they should then contact Customer Support through the Support Portal to ask for specifics.

Myself, and other members of Customer Support for the web site, will be happy to help explain why their products were unlisted.

Regards,

Dakota Linden
--
Linden Lab
SL Marketplace Customer Support
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/
http://www.secondlife.com

 

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I have major issues with this.

1) I run a coordinated promotion effort with these products.  A promotion goes to group, then it goes to the product blog, then it goes to the general blog, then it goes to twitter for both blogs. 

* you pull a product during that time - and I just wasted half a day.  Perhaps I should mention that all that blogging and promotion has a wee bit something to do with the company you work for.

2) You just closed my case before I could respond explaining.  That is no way to treat someone who maintains an attractive presentation on your web site, for several years in good standing, with a Satisfaction Guaranteed policy for your customers, and several hours a day promoting your company in a favorable fashion to the general public at a considerable time cost.

3) I have no other alternatives to address this - since you closed my case.  We are SOL when we have an issue like this.

* that's why it's here in this thread. 

4) The pages that you pulled my item from are chock full of items that do not belong there any more than mine supposedly does not. 

* when you operate under a willy-nilly system where only those who are being targeted by a competitor or someone with a Bad Tude are penalized....that does more harm to your marketplace as a whole than it does to us individually. 

5) You do not have proper categories for effective merchandising.  Supply the proper categories and your work load on these type of issues will be cut in half.

6) I do not approve of the merchant community having the power to put a new product out of business for half a week, and the power to cancel out several days worth of coordinating promotions, and neither should your company.

* again, that does more damage to the marketplace as a whole, by giving abusers control over conscientious merchants.

7) I will adjust that particular product so that I may place it into the category that will actually sell it (for some reason thought that's why we do this)....but adjusting my irritation at the way this was handled is an entirely different story.

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Hello Mickey Vandeverre,

All Support Cases are closed unless we are waiting for a reply from a user.  Any Support Case can be re-opened through the Support Portal or by replying directly to the email that is sent when a comment is posted to your Support Case.

All users are responsible for placing their products into the correct category on the Marketplace.

If you are unsure of the correct category, it is recommended that you do a search to see if a specific category exists already on the Marketplace or contact Customer Support to ask what the correct category should be.

If you are aware of other listings in a category that should not be there, use the Flag this Item link that is on every product listing to report the listing so that the issue can be addressed.
Regards,

Dakota Linden
--
Linden Lab
SL Marketplace Customer Support
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/
http://www.secondlife.com

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