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Sonya Bigboots

Why does SL de-list from the Market Place?

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It doesn't seem like you are hearing what I'm saying.

1) There was NOT a proper category for it, so it gets placed into the nearest fitting category.

No way am I going to flag all those items on the first 8 pages of relevance for that category - they are TOP SELLERS!  That's part of the point!  They were placed into a category that sells.  If there were a category that described all those products as they should be described....they probably could have sold twice as many.

I WILL NOT FLAG a merchant's items. 

That is NOT acceptable.  And it's BAD BUSINESS.

I mentioned "why" in the last post.

The fact that you keep encourage that type of abuse....is very disheartening, and I had little faith left in your company.

 

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

I WILL NOT FLAG a merchant's items. 

That is NOT acceptable.  And it's BAD BUSINESS.

I mentioned "why" in the last post.

The fact that you keep encourage that type of abuse....is very disheartening, and I had little faith left in your company.

Systems that rely on users to show when something is wrong are very common on the web - all forums and systems where users can post/list without pre-moderation, for instance. This forum and the marketplace are two examples. Such systems need users to let the controllers know of 'wrong' posts/listings, so your insistance that you will not participate in it is out of step with the norm, Mickey. Not only that, but in not doing it, you are intentionally not helping to alleviate the problem that you are complaining about - when you could help to alleviate it.

The flagging system can't be abused by users as long as someone at the other end actually confirms that each flag is correct before taking any action on it, as is supposed to happen. Where abuse can occur is intentionally listing items in higher level categories than they belong, and that is one reason why user participation is needed, regardless of whose items are listed in the wrong categories.

 

ETA:

Unless I am mistaken, a great many items were placed in the wrong categories (too high levels) by the auto-transfer from the old system. They do need to be sorted out, both by Lindens sitting down to do it and by users flagging. Imo, it's a mistake not to flag wrong listings because it helps nobody and hinders many. I don't understand the thinking that knows exactly where to place an item but places it in the higher level category because other items are wrongly listed there. The item should be placed in the correct category and the other items should be flagged. If people did that when they saw it, then, over time, the whole lot should get sorted out. Reluctance to do it only perpetuates the problem.

 

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Do you have your merchandise on marketplace, Phil?  

It's not a forum.

It's a marketplace and it's a business.

I don't recall any marketplace that I've ever used online giving that power to other merchants.

Several months ago, I accidentally listed an item twice on ebay.  They sent me a message telling me to correct it.  I had so many items up, that I could not find which one they were talking about, so I just left it.  Then they called me ON THE PHONE to explain which one it was, and they were really nice about it.  They did not reprimand me, and tell me that I did not have a clue how to list products after 10 years of using their service.  They obviously checked my records before calling.  And at the end of the call, they THANKED me for using their service and asked if there was anything else that I needed help with.

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I've never used the marketplace and I never will, but you aready knew that, Mickey. It doesn't make any difference though. My brain functions the same whether or not I use the thing. Actually, it makes it better because I can see it without any personal bias at all.

No, the marketplace isn't a forum, Mickey, but forums were only one of the examples I gave where users can post/list things without pre-moderation. The other example I gave was directories, and the marketplace is a directory - a directory with added functions, but still a directory. They are examples of systems where people can 'publish' stuff without any intermediate checking.

With directories, people want their stuff as high up the tree as possible, because the higher up they are, the more visible they are. I know that from experience. Because of that, people often place things higher than they should be, and they often know they are doing it. With the marketplace, they often say that they did it because items the same as theirs were listed in the higher level one. That hinders the functioning of the marketplace for buyers and for sellers who list their things in the right categories.

You said that you won't flag other merchants' items when they are listed in the wrong category. That's your choice, of course, but you can't use the excuse or reason that other items, just like yours, are listed in the category where yours was delisted from, and you can't complain if your item is delisted because it's in the wrong category if you knowingly placed it at too high a level.

The marketplace is not eBay - it's the marketplace. It has rules (ToS) and it has systems. If you won't abide by the rules concerning categories, you can expect items to be delisted, and you cannot justifiably complain when it happens. If you won't use the excellent Flag system (excellent as long as it works as described) to help tidy up the marketplace, you can't use it's untidiness as an excuse or reason for placing items in wrong categories.

If sellers would take it seriously and adopt the attitude that it really matters to place their things exactly right because, if they don't, they may have to do it all over again and the time would have been wasted, then we'd see much less of this type of thread.

 

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Hello Phil,

There seems to be some confusion about how the Marketplace works.

 

You stated: "With directories, people want their stuff as high up the tree as possible, because the higher up they are, the more visible they are."

 

This isn't how it works on the Second Life Marketplace, and here is why:

 

Any product in a sub-category is automatically displayed in the top level category.

Home & Garden

Decor

Exterior Decor

 

Any product placed into the Exterior Decor category is automatically shown in the Decor category and it is shown in the Home & Garden category.

By placing content into the top level categories, sellers are actually LIMITING the amount of exposure their products get.

If a seller places a product listing into the main Home & Garden category, the ONLY people that will see it are those who are viewing the main Home & Garden category.

They are, to put it bluntly, screwing up their chance at a sale.

Lets look at a specific example.

A seller creates a beautiful tree and they place it into the main Home & Garden - Landscaping category instead of placing it into the Home & Garden - Landscaping - Trees & Shrubs category.

So they "think" they will be getting better exposure for their product, but they aren't.

Here is why.

As a buyer, I am looking for trees for my land.I do a search for trees in the Marketplace and I see that there is a category specifically for trees, so I go to that Home & Garden - Landscaping - Trees & Shrubs sub- category and I find a whole bunch of trees, and I buy 4 of them.

 

Now, do you think, in the above scenario that the person who put their tree into the main Landscaping category was one of the people that sold a tree?

No. Why?

Because they did NOT put their product listing into the Trees & Shrubs category, which means that when the buyer was looking in the Trees & Shrubs category for products, that sellers items was not there, since they put it into the wrong, top level, category. They potentially lost a sale.

 

So how, exactly, is that getting better results for the seller? It isn't.

 

They lost a potential sale by thinking they were being slick by putting their product listings into a top level category, which again, is a direct violation of the Marketplace Listing Guidelines.

 

So not only is that seller violating the rules, they are hurting themselves financially by not following the rules that are set down for a reason, in addition to contributing to the Marketplace categories being a total mess with stuff placed everywhere and anywhere.

 

Regards,

Dakota Linden
--
Linden Lab
SL Marketplace Customer Support
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/
http://www.secondlife.com

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Hi Dakota,

I wasn't thinking about the search function. I was only thinking about drilling down the levels but, even then, the way it's designed doesn't make much sense to me, simply because the higher level categories will often have far too many listings to be useful. E.g. in your example, the Home & Garden category will list absolutely everything that's listed for both homes and gardens - every item of furniture, etc. etc. etc. Wow! So it seems that the marketplace is a directory, with a category tree, but one that's designed to be used primarily via its search function, rather than by the more usual drilling down. Thank you for the clarification.

 

ETA:

Incidentally, by "more visible", I meant that buyers will come to the tiem before they come to items in lower level categories, when they are drilling down the catagories. It's like search results - the ones that are nearer the top are more visible, not because they are listed more times than others, but because they are seen before the others. If the items in the higher level categories are listed before the items in the lower level categories - i.e. the higher the level, the nearer the front of the listings - then that meaning of "more visible" still holds when drilling down the categories.

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HI Phil,

Ah!  Thank you for the clarification.

But as you said, there are far too many items displayed in the top level categories. So they are still not getting the exposure they would by placing the product into the correct sub-category because their item now has to compete with all of the other products in that category, and all of its sub-categories.

The whole point of the categories on the MKT is visibility.  If you have one item that is mixed in with 20K other items, it becomes nearly impossible to see that item.

If you have the item in a category with 500 other items, then your product has a greater chance of standing out amonst the others.

The Marketplace tries to stradle the line between Search and Browse.

Sellers who are mindful of the name of the product, who use the Features tab optimally and who chose good and correct keywords have a better chance at having their products found from a search standpoint.

Those who prefer to browse categories can then drill down into the sub-categories to refine their browsing.

The whole finding products functionality though relies nearly 99% on sellers who adhere to the Listing Guidelines when creating product listings.

(the other 1% is getting good categories set up in the MKT).

When sellers use junk keywords, or create weird names for their listings, or do not bother to use the Features tab, they hurt themselves far more than they help themselves from a search standpoint.

When they place their products into the wrong category, or place it into a top level category, they are hurting themselves by potentially losing sales to those who chose to browse rather than search.

Regards,

Dakota Linden
--
Linden Lab
SL Marketplace Customer Support
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/
http://www.secondlife.com

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Pardon me, but not sure "who" you are referring to as trying to be "slick."  I sure hope that it is not me.

Simply working with the options on your pull down menus.  They don't work, by the way.

I typed in "outdoor" for that pull down menu, and it gave two options.  I chose one.  If you do not want us using those options, then do not supply them.  There is not option when you pull that menu down to advance farther down into a category.

The category that you want me to place that item in....has 30,000 plus some odd items in it, and a very very limited range of sub-categories, which do not apply at all to many items, and none of those options applied to this item.

When you see that many items in one category, a logical method would be to supply more sub-categories within, in order for effective merchandising.  You all have not listened to this in past discussions, and you're not listening now.

I do NOT need a lecture on how to merchandise my products.  And that is where your customer support attempt has failed.  I would no longer be in this thread, if I had been talked to in a reasonable fashion about that issue.

People are trying to sell their stuff...and the options are limited.  You can call us "slick" if you want, and there lies the problem.  Rather than listening to what the issues are at the core (from a long term customer), and in addition going so far as to imply that they are intentionally violating and perpetuating a faulty system....that's your choice. 

If you want to operate that way, and infuriate a long term customer.....FINE.

I know how to market products and I know how to treat customers.  And it's at the opposite end of the spectrum.

You still fail to address the issue of abuse in flagging, and it's been pointed out to you many times in these forums.

By twisting the information that I've provided into an abuse on my part is unreasonable and uncalled for.

 

 

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Hello Mickey,

I used the word "slick" to refer to those who are specifically putting their products into top level categories when they know they should be using one of the appropriate sub-categories.

It is not being used to refer to those who do not know that there is a sub-category, or there isn't one available for their products.

As for the available choices for the categories, sellers can also put a chair into the Horses category, since that is an available category on the Marketplace.

It doesn't make placing that product into the horses category any more correct than placing it into the main Home & Garden Category.

You are asking about the "abuse in flagging" but I have yet to see any clear cut abuse occurring.

What is occuring is users who's content is being unlisted because they chose the wrong category for their product listings.

If you believe that abuse is occuring, please provide specific cases and I will review the issue as I did with you in your Support Case.

Regards,

Dakota Linden
--
Linden Lab
SL Marketplace Customer Support
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/
http://www.secondlife.com

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You used my category issue specifically in your example, and then referred to that as trying to be "slick" a few paragraphs after.

I've given you examples of what the immediate de-listing effects are to a merchant. 

A warning would be sufficient, with time to adjust or submit support ticket, rather than canceling out their marketing and promotion in one fell swoop in an instant.  That marketing and promotion benefits your company.

I've given you an example of how the drop down menu to type in a keyword and choose a category does not work, according to what your rules spell out that you want.

I've given an explanation that your limited categories that do not cover popular items are in fact contributing to the category listing confusion and dilemma, and some people are forced to choose second best, as the appropriate category is simply not there.

I've explained that I have many years of product merchandising under my belt (and others here have MUCH more experience)...and do not need a hand holding session to list product.

There has been one thread after another on the de-listing of products since your new marketplace opened, and there have been people responding with the same thoughts on abuse by flaggers as I have.  It is not a personal issue.  You even participated in one of those threads earlier on.  There is generally at least one thread on this topic on any given day.

You don't seem to be acknowledging the above. 

It's infuriating that I have to defend my business practices in order to get the above across.  Have often accepted that as par for the course from another merchant....but don't expect that from a Linden.

And as a business owner where real dollars exchange hands....it's infuriating that we have no other avenues to supply information and get an issue resolved in a respectful fashion and in a productive fashion. 

Our hands are tied.   And in addition, we are paying for that.

I really can't find a support option on your pull down menu that says .....

"hey, I want to grow my business, but there's this issue thing that gets in the way, and would like to supply some suggestions and explain what the problems are.....and surely this would be beneficial to all of us...if not, just let us know why, and we will move on to other things, and possibly come up with some better suggestions..."

It's all right here, spelled out....

So I really don't see a need to submit another support ticket to your particular division.

 

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Hello Mickey,

If you believe that the issues that you pointed out with regards to making category selections and the default that the product is unlisted from the Marketplace in accordance with the Terms of Service and Marketplace Listing Policies should be changed, please submit a Second Life Jira ticket so that the Marketplace and Dev Teams can research the issue and research the possibility of changing the system from how things are done now.

Policy and design changes cannot be done the Support Portal or a forum thread.  They require changes that must be approved by the Linden Lab legal department for policy changes and a design overhaul for web site changes.

Regards,

Dakota Linden
--
Linden Lab
SL Marketplace Customer Support
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/
http://www.secondlife.com

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I don't have enough technical knowledge to create a Jira.  I don't think that it is worth it. 

This is a petty issue considering the whole scheme of things, and it could easily be resolved or at the least reduced based on the input that is already here in this forum, and has been sitting here for months.

And based on the last 3 days of dialogue, I don't have the inclination to spend any further time on this.  I don't get paid to try to have a dialogue.  Not on the clock for this.

There is no amount of time spent typing words here, that will convince you that your limitations are what some people have difficulty with....and that they are NOT criminals intentionally breaking your rules.

Will simply package product to fit your limitations.  And will reduce promotion efforts, so that a possible auto de-list does not elimate half a day's work.

That's not exactly a benefit for the shopper or for your marketplace or venue.  Multiply that times others who simply don't want to fool with this.

But been there, done that...on a variety of levels.

Over and over again.

 

 

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Mickey. You know me. Before you asked, you knew that I've never used the marketplace and that I never will, and you know why. You know my views of LL and its employees - that, although there are some excellent Lindens, Linden Lab, as a company, is so bad that I wouldn't lift a finger on its behalf. So you'll know that this has nothing whatsoever to do with me favouring LL.

You keep on about users abusing the flagging system, but the flagging system cannot be abused by users. I, as a user, can flag every item in sight, and I can be nasty and target an individual's items for flagging, just for the hell of it, or to mess the competition about, but nothing will happen to the items because the flags weren't merited. For anything to happen to an item because someone flagged it, the item's listing must break some rule or other. That's how the system is designed and that's how we are told it works. Whether or not any Lindens don't do it right, and just "rubber stamp" flaggings without checking them, as people in the AR team sometimes do, is speculation. If they do, they deserve to be fired. So, assuming that the flagging sytem actually does work the way that we are told it works, it cannot be abused by users to the unjust detriment of sellers.

 

ETA: I read the word "slick" as describing an action and not as a description of anyone. It's quite a good word for the way it was used.

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

I had a pretty good hunch who it was, by the way.  Confirmed.

I know nothing about your problem and I haven't been addressing it in any way. I talked about the system - that's all.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

You keep on about users abusing the flagging system, but the flagging system
cannot
be abused by users. I, as a user, can flag every item in sight, and I can be nasty and target an individual's items for flagging, just for the hell of it, or to mess the competition about, but nothing will happen to the items because the flags weren't merited. For anything to happen to an item because someone flagged it, the item's listing must break some rule or other. That's how the system is designed and that's how we are told it works. Whether or not any Lindens don't do it right, and just "rubber stamp" flaggings without checking them, as people in the AR team sometimes do, is speculation. If they do, they deserve to be fired. So, assuming that the flagging sytem actually does work the way that we are told it works,
it cannot be abused by users to the unjust detriment of sellers
.

 

You don't believe this though Phil, you told me in another thread that you think this system works more like AR's and just gets rubber stamped.

There is something wrong with the system and how it's managed, that's clear from the amount of threads we've had on this subject.

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Yes, I've always made the proviso that it can't be abused provided that the Flag system actually works as we are told it works, and not as the AR people sometimes do it. I haven't included that proviso in every post but I have included it in this thread.

In this thread, Dakota said, "[...] yet in 99.9999999% of the cases, their product is in violation of the Listing Guidelines", and I'm inclined to believe her. It doesn't mean that all of them are examined individually and, knowing the practises at LL, it's unlikely that they are, but they may be. Dakota certainly sounds straight to me. And if each one is checked, as it's supposed to be, then it isn't possible for a user to abuse the Flag system to the unfair detriment of sellers.

 


Ciaran Laval wrote:

There is something wrong with the system and how it's managed, that's clear from the amount of threads we've had on this subject.


It certainly sounds like there's something wrong, but I'm not convinced. I am sure that many people place some of their items in the wrong categories, whether intentionally or not, and many of the unintentional ones can be dumbfounded when an item gets delisted, especially when other like items haven't been delisted from the same category, and post about it here. There is certainly a good reason why these threads and posts keep cropping up that doesn't involve the marketplace people failing to check each flagged item.

Don't forget that, imo, the marketplace is a complete joke, technically, and I find that what LL have done with it is too unscrupulous for words. I'm dead against it, so if my thinking were being biased in this thread, I'd certainly be posting differently.

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Ciaran Laval wrote:

There is something wrong with the system and how it's managed, that's clear from the amount of threads we've had on this subject.


It certainly sounds like there's something wrong, but I'm not convinced. I am sure that many people place some of their items in the wrong categories, whether intentionally or not, and many of the unintentional ones can be dumbfounded when an item gets delisted, especially when other like items haven't been delisted from the same category, and post about it here. There is certainly a good reason why these threads and posts keep cropping up that doesn't involve the marketplace people failing to check each flagged item.

 

Indeed, this seems to be the case as far as I can tell too.

It seems to me as though a good proportion of the complaints we see about delisting turn out to be becuase they were listed in the wrong category. People perceive this as a problem becuase they don't realise they listed in the wrong category, or belive the category they put it in was the right category.

Given everything Dakota has explained, it seems to me as though the flagging and delisting system is working correctly. Flags are reviewed and a decision is made. There really is little scope for the system to be abused. Someone from LL is either agreeing with the flag and delisting it, or not agreeing and it will remain (and it's also my understanding that if someone is 'griefer' flagging the system will 'learn' their activity as the LL 'moderator' ignores their false flag and that, ultimately, any future flags they make will be automatically ignored).

The main problem lies in misunderstandings about how to use the categories, it seems. In light of which I'd like to offer a friendly suggestion to Dakota that an email to merchants and / or a blog post with a reminder and more detail about how to use category listings correctly might help ease seome fo the complaints?

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IT IS NOT WORKING Suella!

You don't have a clue either what is happening, because you run around here agreeing with everyone and sugar-coating every single paragraph.  You never challenge anyone - you agree with everything.

Hell NO!  no-one is going to flag your stuff.

 

There are other reasons that people will be flagged abusively:

Their prices are considerably lower than what a competitor can deal with.

Their product and/or store is extremely successful, and they happen to be selling in a category that is occupied by someone with "issues"

Their product is much better.

Someone simply doesn't like them.

Their product is similar - but much better priced

They are a new creator with a ton of promise and really good stuff

it goes on and on...........

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Suella Ember wrote:


The main problem lies in misunderstandings about how to use the categories, it seems. In light of which I'd like to offer a friendly suggestion to Dakota that an email to merchants and / or a blog post with a reminder and more detail about how to use category listings correctly might help ease seome fo the complaints?

 

 

Backlogged Marketplace Items include the ability to suggest the correct category when the product is unlisted, and to send an email to the seller letting them know that their product was unlisted.

Jira's were created for both issues and are in the system.

Regards,


Dakota Linden

--

Linden Lab

SL Marketplace Customer Support


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Suella Ember wrote

It seems to me as though a good proportion of the complaints we see about delisting turn out to be becuase they were listed in the wrong category. People perceive this as a problem becuase they don't realise they listed in the wrong category, or belive the category they put it in was the right category.

Given everything Dakota has explained, it seems to me as though the flagging and delisting system is working correctly. Flags are reviewed and a decision is made. There really is little scope for the system to be abused. Someone from LL is either agreeing with the flag and delisting it, or not agreeing and it will remain (and it's also my understanding that if someone is 'griefer' flagging the system will 'learn' their activity as the LL 'moderator' ignores their false flag and that, ultimately, any future flags they make will be automatically ignored).

The main problem lies in misunderstandings about how to use the categories, it seems. In light of which I'd like to offer a friendly suggestion to Dakota that an email to merchants and / or a blog post with a reminder and more detail about how to use category listings correctly might help ease seome fo the complaints?

 The wrong category seems to be the right category but not correct sub-category and delisting without notifying people properly is wrong on very many levels, but especially in the case of someone paying for a feature enhancement.

This sort of thing has been going on for ages, we've seen people flagged as not as described, strange words making something adult, and wrong category due to people being in the right area but not the exact sub-category, some people are going to disagree with said sub-categories as they feel the item doesn't fit there.

The bottom line really is that the communication is not sufficient enough.

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Dakota Linden wrote:

 

Suella Ember wrote:

 

The main problem lies in misunderstandings about how to use the categories, it seems. In light of which I'd like to offer a friendly suggestion to Dakota that an email to merchants and / or a blog post with a reminder and more detail about how to use category listings correctly might help ease seome fo the complaints?

 

Backlogged Marketplace Items include the ability to suggest the correct category when the product is unlisted, and to send an email to the seller letting them know that their product was unlisted.


Thanks Dakota.

I think the sooner that gets implimented, the sooner we can all stop arguing over it :)

An email and suggestion of where the item should be listed will help people to get the item correctly relisted quickly without worrying about it being delisted again. It will also hopefully reassure people that LL are taking note of the flags (you'd have to study it in order to suggest a right category!) 

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You are not getting it.

The perfect category is not available.

The "ok" category is chock full of similar stuff - so we place it there.

That category is not acceptable to LL - as they don't have a clue what your product is, so they tell you to put it somewhere else that makes no sense whatsoever, while all the other products similar to yours are getting views all day long in a category that appears to work quite well.

You have no experience with what is going on here.  There are plenty of other threads where you can suck-up to Linden Lab.  At least do it in a thread where you  have experience/background to talk knowledgeably about the topic.

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

You are not getting it.

The perfect category is not available.

The "ok" category is chock full of similar stuff - so we place it there.

That category is not acceptable to LL - as they don't have a clue what your product is, so they tell you to put it somewhere else that makes no sense whatsoever, while all the other products similar to yours are getting views all day long in a category that appears to work quite well.

You have no experience with what is going on here.  There are plenty of other threads where you can suck-up to Linden Lab.  At least do it in a thread where you  have experience/background to talk knowledgeably about the topic.

Throwing the 'cheerleader' card is quite ironic from you Mickey, given that you always used to rally so hard against it!

That's the funny thing about forums. They are for people to share their views, dicuss and debate things irrepsective of their 'knowledge or experience'. 

Fear not though. I have little more to say on the subject and am happy to let readers make up their own mind without resorting to insulting them or questioning their knowledge and experience.

I'm off to have some fun inworld so have at it! It's all yours! :smileywink:

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ok, well I use the Passive/Aggressive technique often, so can hardly jump on you for that.  But great job on that.

You stated yourself that you have no experience with this.

I didn't just pull that out of the air somewhere.

If you have no experience with it....then how can you make statements that it is working fine, and how can you disregard all the explanations and angles that I pointed out here?

Wazzup with that?

I haven't been 'round here in months.  You all can have your little suck-up sessions all over the place.  I feel this issue needs to be taken care of, not to mention (which I have not even gone into)....that it's an indication of how LL handles their customers and processes. 

I don't like what I'm seeing.  I want to know if I'm seeing that correctly.  And no, not going to make that judgment call from your history.

This is serious business for some Suella.  You should know that with a bit of intuitiveness from reading posts for a year or two.  I'm pretty certain that I know "who" relies on their SL business to tend to family and keep a roof over their head, simply by reading their posts for several years.

If that's not your case....and you don't have a clue what the problem is (as you stated).....then it's not really fair to come into a topic and stuff in a bunch of BS that you know nothing about, simply for your suck-up agenda.

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