Is it griefing if you push someone on your own property?

[Pamela Galli]

20 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I don't know. To me, it's like the experience of standing by helplessly while someone cuts themselves. It's upsetting. I don't think I need to watch anymore.

I just always assumed she is very young. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

53 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, no. No, it's neither "funny" nor particularly surprising, because you seem to set yourself up for it. It's like you expect to receive abuse, and so you do your best to assure that you aren't disappointed in that expectation. Both of your recent threads are weirdly "meta," and essentially ask "Am I a nasty person if I do this . . ." And then, in case there was any doubt, you spend much of the rest of your time in those threads reassuring everyone that, yes, you ARE indeed a nasty person.

This thread, for instance, is entirely gratuitous: you can't really care if this behaviour counts as "griefing," can you? You don't give any indication that you do. In fact, at one point above, you essentially suggest that you entice the public on to your parcel so that you can expel them, in the hope that they will post about the experience on the forums and you can laugh at them here too.

I actually don't think you're a "nasty" person (sorry!). But I do wonder why you deliberately provoke criticisms and attacks. Is it so that you can feel persecuted?

I don't know. I hate armchair psychologists myself. But I'd be asking myself some questions were I you.

Remember - if you were them, you'd be them.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

22 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

I just always assumed she is very young. 

I hope it's nothing more than that. But in my experience, the two conditions are by no means mutually exclusive.

[Maitimo]

Personally I don't think that having a hornets nest that pushes people to the parcel border on your own land is griefing, IF you state in the parcel description that it is private land and strangers are unwelcome.

Having an open invitation to all AND THEN doing this, yes I think that's griefing, because it's going contrary to what people expect an open invitation to be. It's like inviting someone to your party in RL and when they arrive, you tell them they have to stand outside and watch through the window. That's disappointing when you were expecting a party, and getting kicked to the parcel border is disappointing when you were expecting to be able to explore freely.

What you need to do is warn of the conditions of the "open" invitation; mark out the territory where the hornets patrol, put up warning signs or something, say that this part of the parcel is private or whatever. Or just remove the open invitation altogether, because it's plainly clear that you don't have such a thing at all, and you're just attacking innocent folk who did nothing but accept a thing that doesn't actually exist. And you're pissing people off solely because you find it amusing?

Doing it for the Lulz, right.

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Matty Luminos

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Is there a reason why you wouldn't have some sort of warning to people that this isn't for public access? Or why you wouldn't have auto-return set up, as in the case of the crashed car? (And why wouldn't it be possible for the owner to reverse out after hitting the stone?)

I have no experience of land ownership, so forgive me if these are stupid questions.

There are no ban lines and there isn't a security orb. If you manage to stay out of range of the wasps you can stay for as long as you wish. So it is public access. 

The land is group rezz only, so no need for auto return, since no one can rezz anything except group members. Believe it or not I'm quite amused to find a crashed car or crashed airplane on my property, it adds to the realism that is Second Life.

 

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

4 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

Personally I don't think that having a hornets nest that pushes people to the parcel border on your own land is griefing, IF you state in the parcel description that it is private land and strangers are unwelcome.

Having an open invitation to all AND THEN doing this, yes I think that's griefing, because it's going contrary to what people expect an open invitation to be. It's like inviting someone to your party in RL and when they arrive, you tell them they have to stand outside and watch through the window. That's disappointing when you were expecting a party, and getting kicked to the parcel border is disappointing when you were expecting to be able to explore freely.

What you need to do is warn of the conditions of the "open" invitation; mark out the territory where the hornets patrol, put up warning signs or something, say that this part of the parcel is private or whatever. Or just remove the open invitation altogether, because it's plainly clear that you don't have such a thing at all, and you're just attacking innocent folk who did nothing but accept a thing that doesn't actually exist. And you're pissing people off solely because you find it amusing?

Doing it for the Lulz, right.

 

So are you suggesting that every private parcel in second life that has a security orb active states somewhere in the parcel description that the parcel is private?

As I have stated before, I don't advertise my land anywhere, or perhaps you are trying to tell me that before you walk onto a private parcel you look at the "about land" first before crossing the property line?

I've never seen a parcel description that says "stay out, I have a security orb and its active".

 

[Amina Sopwith]

Just now, BilliJo Aldrin said:

There are no ban lines and there isn't a security orb. If you manage to stay out of range of the wasps you can stay for as long as you wish. So it is public access. 

So is there a reason why you wouldn't warn people of the hornet-guarded exclusion zone? Especially since, if they cross it, they won't be able to explore the unprotected part of the land, since they'll be pushed right up against the edge of the parcel?

2 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

The land is group rezz only, so no need for auto return, since no one can rezz anything except group members. Believe it or not I'm quite amused to find a crashed car or crashed airplane on my property, it adds to the realism that is Second Life.

Why wouldn't I believe it? You've made it clear that you do this because you find it funny.

But it makes it even more inexplicable to me. If it's group rez only, there's an implication that if you can rez a car there, you're welcome. I've just caught up with the earlier post saying that your description of the land is that it's for all to enjoy. Why would you say that if there's an in-built feature that effectively boots people?

I just don't understand why you'd do this without warning people that there's a part of the land that's off limits.

If I were on this land and the hornets got me, I'd assume it was an inventive security measure and would bog off and not return.  If they didn't push me to the edge of the parcel, so I could still stay and explore, again, I'd wonder why there were no signs telling me not to walk any further.

I wouldn't report this or feel particularly hurt about it. I just wouldn't understand why there was no warning.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 minute ago, Amina Sopwith said:

So is there a reason why you wouldn't warn people of the hornet-guarded exclusion zone? Especially since, if they cross it, they won't be able to explore the unprotected part of the land, since they'll be pushed right up against the edge of the parcel?

Why wouldn't I believe it? You've made it clear that you do this because you find it funny.

But it makes it even more inexplicable to me. If it's group rez only, there's an implication that if you can rez a car there, you're welcome. I've just caught up with the earlier post saying that your description of the land is that it's for all to enjoy. Why would you say that if there's an in-built feature that effectively boots people?

I just don't understand why you'd do this without warning people that there's a part of the land that's off limits.

If I were on this land and the hornets got me, I'd assume it was an inventive security measure and would bog off and not return.  If they didn't push me to the edge of the parcel, so I could still stay and explore, again, I'd wonder why there were no signs telling me not to walk any further.

I wouldn't report this or feel particularly hurt about it. I just wouldn't understand why there was no warning.

You are still missing the point. If you were in the woods in RL there would be no warning if you were attacked by hornets. It's just not your lucky day, that's all. you got swarmed. 

People go on and on and on about making SL as "real" as possible. I did this in my own small way, but because it's not how others would do it,  it's all wrong.

Anyway, thank you all for your most gracious input.

If you ever want to drop by, send me an IM and I'll add you to the safe list, or just take your chances with the swarm.

[Maitimo]

6 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

There are no ban lines and there isn't a security orb. If you manage to stay out of range of the wasps you can stay for as long as you wish. So it is public access. 

 

 

 

The only thing that makes it "not a security orb" is "it's not spherical".  It fulfils the same function as a security orb, and it has the same result as a security orb (person not on safe list is removed from your property). Like your hornets nest, an orb-shaped security orb can also be set to cover only a small part of your parcel instead of all of it. And like your hornets nest, a security orb can also be set to eject trespassers to the border instead of teleporting them home.

Your hornets nest lacks some other features of standard orbs, and replaces them with bitey insects, but  it is, still, a security orb.

 

1 minute ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

So are you suggesting that every private parcel in second life that has a security orb active states somewhere in the parcel description that the parcel is private?

As I have stated before, I don't advertise my land anywhere, or perhaps you are trying to tell me that before you walk onto a private parcel you look at the "about land" first before crossing the property line?

I've never seen a parcel description that says "stay out, I have a security orb and its active".

 

I am suggesting that every parcel that has a security orb does not have someone saying "Hey! Open invitation to come and explore! Oh, BOOM! Haha gotcha!" Which is what you are doing.

Yes, actually I look at the land description before I even attempt to teleport there. So do lots of other people. Because if it appears to be someone's private home, I don't want to be there without an invite. Your "open invitation" would say to me that the land is public. Then the hornets come along and prove you wrong.

People don't need to say that you have a security orb in the land description because the orb itself will announce on arrival that it is there and give you a certain amount of time to leave the parcel.  Your hornets nest doesn't appear to announce itself until it's too late, and it goes contrary to your "open invitation" so you are contradicting yourself. 

Your "open invitation" is non-existent. What you actually have is a lure deliberately designed to draw people into an unpleasant situation for your own amusement.

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

You are still missing the point. If you were in the woods in RL there would be no warning if you were attacked by hornets. It's just not your lucky day, that's all. you got swarmed. 

 

And hornets in a forest maintain a 30 meter perimeter around their nest with pickets reporting back every thirty seconds, right?

[Fionalein]

4 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

If you were in the woods in RL there would be no warning if you were attacked by hornets.

Of all wasps hornets are amongst the most peaceful... your "excuse" is invalid and void

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

11 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

 

The only thing that makes it "not a security orb" is "it's not spherical".  It fulfils the same function as a security orb, and it has the same result as a security orb (person not on safe list is removed from your property). Like your hornets nest, an orb-shaped security orb can also be set to cover only a small part of your parcel instead of all of it. And like your hornets nest, a security orb can also be set to eject trespassers to the border instead of teleporting them home.

Your hornets nest lacks some other features of standard orbs, and replaces them with bitey insects, but  it is, still, a security orb.

 

I am suggesting that every parcel that has a security orb does not have someone saying "Hey! Open invitation to come and explore! Oh, BOOM! Haha gotcha!" Which is what you are doing.

Yes, actually I look at the land description before I even attempt to teleport there. So do lots of other people. Because if it appears to be someone's private home, I don't want to be there without an invite. Your "open invitation" would say to me that the land is public. Then the hornets come along and prove you wrong.

People don't need to say that you have a security orb in the land description because the orb itself will announce on arrival that it is there and give you a certain amount of time to leave the parcel.  Your hornets nest doesn't appear to announce itself until it's too late, and it goes contrary to your "open invitation" so you are contradicting yourself. 

Your "open invitation" is non-existent. What you actually have is a lure deliberately designed to draw people into an unpleasant situation for your own amusement.

As far as  I know, the only place it says its open to all is in the "about land" and you probably won't look at that until after you were chased away, so where exactly am I advertising a park open for all to explore?

I don't even describe the land in my picks, there is certainly no invitation to come visit.

Edited January 3, 2019 by BilliJo Aldrin
added stuff

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

As far as  I know, the only place it says its open to all is in the "about land" and you probably won't look at that until after you were chased away, so where exactly am I advertising a park open for all to explore?

How exactly did the words "open to all" get into the land description?

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Just now, Theresa Tennyson said:

How exactly did the words "open to all" get into the land description?

That's not the point, the point is the land IS open to all, until you get attacked by the hornets. There was nothing implied about how long you can stay.

If you stay out of range, you can stay all day, if you get too close, you have up to 30 seconds

[ImaTest]

Any attention is good attention

Apparently

People be better off ignoring

Exact opposite of what she wants

 

[Maitimo]

25 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

As far as  I know, the only place it says its open to all is in the "about land" and you probably won't look at that until after you were chased away, so where exactly am I advertising a park open for all to explore?

I don't even describe the land in my picks, there is certainly no invitation to come visit.

Apparently (and I can't check this because I don't know the parcel location) the About Land description says something like "Open to all" or "open access" or "for all to enjoy" or "public" or something of that sort.  If the About Land description contains words like this, they ought to be removed in order to be fair, because the reality of the situation is that your land is fully open only to your friends (on the safe list) and only part of your land (but you're not saying in advance which part) is open to everyone.

If the About Land doesn't say anything like this and never did, then I am mistaken and I apologise.

And you are wrong; most people DO tend to read the About Land before entering a parcel. If you tend not to do that yourself that doesn't mean no-one else does , it just means that you're not typical.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

2 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

The sole point is its a natural area and a swarm of angry hornets are a part of nature. 

There is nothing on the property inviting people in, its just there.

As far as I know its not "nabbing people" outside the parcel and they only push people to the property line because i get the message "object entry not allowed on this parcel"

 

If you are looking to be more factual with your nature area, they usually won't swarm you unless you get close to the nest around 3m or closer and they see you as a threat..

Outside the nest area they are really passive unless they are protecting their nest or you mess with them too much..

But I understand you probably have your area that you don't want others but you and your friends to go into..

So it's pretty much acting like an orb for the area you want to keep to yourself,I'm guessing..

 

It's none of my business what you do on your own land or my place to tell you what to do..I was just curious what the hornets were for is all..

 

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

If you are looking to be more factual with your nature area, they usually won't swarm you unless you get close to the nest around 3m or closer and they see you as a threat..

Outside the nest area they are really passive unless they are protecting their nest or you mess with them too much..

But I understand you probably have your area that you don't want others but you and your friends to go into..

So it's pretty much acting like an orb for the area you want to keep to yourself,I'm guessing..

 

It's none of my business what you do on your own land or my place to tell you what to do..I was just curious what the hornets were for is all..

 

 

There's nothing in the area that the wasps scan that  I want to protect from visitors. 

If someone tps in while I'm there I'll give them an oops and turn off the nest.

I've even tped friends in, forgetting that wasps will get them. They get added to the safe list

The only reason  I have wasps to chase away visitors is because  I thought it would be amusing to have wasps chase away visitors.

So anyway, the consensus seems to be, since its my land, it can't be griefing. Thank you all for your input.

 

[Amina Sopwith]

48 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

You are still missing the point. If you were in the woods in RL there would be no warning if you were attacked by hornets. It's just not your lucky day, that's all. you got swarmed. 

People go on and on and on about making SL as "real" as possible. I did this in my own small way, but because it's not how others would do it,  it's all wrong. 

Ok, first of all you invited our opinions, so I don't understand why you're not prepared to hear that someone might think you're "wrong".

Second, if I were in RL woods, and got attacked by hornets, I'd not return. In SL, which actually is different (ie, you put the hornets there and didn't tell me), I would assume it was a security measure, since it would push me to the parcel edge and stop me from exploring further. I don't think I'd realise it was a practical joke if I had no way of knowing that part of the land was safe.  

I'd probably realise it was a joke and even find it funny if there were warning signs not to proceed further, or even a note about angry hornets in a welcome note. As it is, the feature gives no warning and doesn't just annoy you for a few seconds, but effectively ejects you without explanation.

It's not "wrong" if that's what you want to do on your own land, but it comes over as a security measure and that's how I think most people will see it. Again, I wouldn't AR or feel hurt. I just wouldn't understand why the land description says it's open to all, or there's no barrier, when you appear to want to stop people being there.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

9 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

Apparently (and I can't check this because I don't know the parcel location) the About Land description says something like "Open to all" or "open access" or "for all to enjoy" or "public" or something of that sort.  If the About Land description contains words like this, they ought to be removed in order to be fair, because the reality of the situation is that your land is fully open only to your friends (on the safe list) and only part of your land (but you're not saying in advance which part) is open to everyone.

If the About Land doesn't say anything like this and never did, then I am mistaken and I apologise.

And you are wrong; most people DO tend to read the About Land before entering a parcel. If you tend not to do that yourself that doesn't mean no-one else does , it just means that you're not typical.

 

I certainly hope I'm not "typical". I take great pride in not being typical.

But, seriously? People stop and read the about land before crossing a property line? I just walk across. If an orb tells me to leave, then I leave. If not, i figure it's open to explore. If i get half way across and get attacked by killer bees or a rabid dog, or zombies, i just laugh and move on.

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Just now, Amina Sopwith said:

Ok, first of all you invited our opinions, so I don't understand why you're not prepared to hear that someone might think you're "wrong".

Second, if I were in RL woods, and got attacked by hornets, I'd not return. In SL, which actually is different (ie, you put the hornets there and didn't tell me), I would assume it was a security measure, since it would push me to the parcel edge and stop me from exploring further. I don't think I'd realise it was a practical joke if I had no way of knowing that part of the land was safe.  

I'd probably realise it was a joke and even find it funny if there were warning signs not to proceed further, or even a note about angry hornets in a welcome note. As it is, the feature gives no warning and doesn't just annoy you for a few seconds, but effectively ejects you without explanation.

It's not "wrong" if that's what you want to do on your own land, but it comes over as a security measure and that's how I think most people will see it. Again, I wouldn't AR or feel hurt. I just wouldn't understand why the land description says it's open to all, or there's no barrier, when you appear to want to stop people being there.

The only opinion I actually asked was is it griefing if you push someone on your own parcel?  It's everyone else that derailed to thread to question the morality of pushing them without warning.

[Ceka Cianci]

10 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

There's nothing in the area that the wasps scan that  I want to protect from visitors. 

If someone tps in while I'm there I'll give them an oops and turn off the nest.

I've even tped friends in, forgetting that wasps will get them. They get added to the safe list

The only reason  I have wasps to chase away visitors is because  I thought it would be amusing to have wasps chase away visitors.

So anyway, the consensus seems to be, since its my land, it can't be griefing. Thank you all for your input.

 

Ah,ok..Well that pretty much took care of my curiosity..

hehehehehe

Me and a friend used to have griefer wars against each other on my sim when we would get bored..There were a few times when innocent bystanders wandered in when that was happening and became casualties of our boredom..

We had nukes going off and all kinds of crazy things,just testing out all kinds of different gadgets.. hehehehe

Edited January 3, 2019 by Ceka Cianci

[Pamela Galli]

7 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I certainly hope I'm not "typical". I take great pride in not being typical.

Within in a certain age group, you are.

[Amina Sopwith]

8 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

The only opinion I actually asked was is it griefing if you push someone on your own parcel?  It's everyone else that derailed to thread to question the morality of pushing them without warning.

Well, given that griefing, if established to be griefing, is accepted to be "wrong" and therefore "not moral" even if it's "realistic", I think you're splitting hairs. You're still asking whether it's acceptable to do this, so you ought to be prepared for people to tell you that they think it isn't.

As such, I don't think it's "wrong"/"griefing". It's just an unfunny joke that's set up so that only you would get it. You seem to be happy with that, so knock yourself out.

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Amina Sopwith

[Love Zhaoying]

Isn’t being griefes a rite of passage? BilliJo is performing a public service.