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8 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Let's say there were 7,500 mainland sims in December 2010. 7.7% of that is 578 sims.

 

Now factor in that in 2009 and 2010 Linden Lab added more regions than that which were intended to shift population to new areas instead of strictly adding to it - the over 300 regions of Zindra where Adult mainland activity was sent to and the hundreds of regions of Linden homes which replaced First Lands-type regions and low end starter home developments. The land left when those functions were moved was often in uninteresting largely open low-value regions.

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There is a common misconception in SL that land itself incurs some significant cost for LL to support. The bulk of the computational load on any parcel comes from the objects rezzed there, not from th

My recollection is that in June 2006 when SL went free-to-play, the Lab couldn't print land fast enough. There was a long setup wait for new private islands, and the Mainland was expanding as fast as

No, Klytyna.  There are some problems with that. First of all, you have to ask WHY Mainland prices dropped.  Second, if a large segment of the population emigrated from the Mainland to Private Es

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2 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Now factor in that in 2009 and 2010 Linden Lab added more regions than that which were intended to shift population to new areas instead of strictly adding to it - the over 300 regions of Zindra where Adult mainland activity was sent to and the hundreds of regions of Linden homes which replaced First Lands-type regions and low end starter home developments. The land left when those functions were moved was often in uninteresting largely open low-value regions.

Yes, that too. The picture is far more complicated than what the stats show and there may well be several other factors we haven't mentioned yet.

I can think of one right away but really, the only thing we know for sure is that at the beginning of 2008 (or thereabouts) there was a shortage of mainland, by 2010 there was overcapacity. It would take some serious analyzis work to draw any conclusions beyond that.

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At one point I had an offline exchange with Tyche about a class of non-performing Mainland that isn't "abandoned" but doesn't generate tier revenue either. At the time, it would have been possible for a bot to measure how much of Mainland fell into that class, but neither of us wanted to make those measurements, and now the necessary data is no longer available outside the Lab.

It's very possible that this unused land may sometimes account for several times the amount of land that's officially "abandoned" -- but for added complexity: that proportion is confounded with the total amount of Mainland that is abandoned. That is, the more abandoned land sloshing around the market, the less incentive for the Lab to do anything about other non-performing land (and possibly the fewer spare resources to do anything), reversing when demand justifies reclaiming into the abandoned/auction market other non-performing land.

My point is that Tyche's abandoned land metrics are best interpreted as a lower bound on the amount of unused Mainland. In fact, even knowing whether abandoned land is increasing or decreasing doesn't necessarily correlate with more or less Mainland going unused.

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58 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

At one point I had an offline exchange with Tyche about a class of non-performing Mainland that isn't "abandoned" but doesn't generate tier revenue either. At the time, it would have been possible for a bot to measure how much of Mainland fell into that class, but neither of us wanted to make those measurements, and now the necessary data is no longer available outside the Lab.

It's very possible that this unused land may sometimes account for several times the amount of land that's officially "abandoned" -- but for added complexity: that proportion is confounded with the total amount of Mainland that is abandoned. That is, the more abandoned land sloshing around the market, the less incentive for the Lab to do anything about other non-performing land (and possibly the fewer spare resources to do anything), reversing when demand justifies reclaiming into the abandoned/auction market other non-performing land.

My point is that Tyche's abandoned land metrics are best interpreted as a lower bound on the amount of unused Mainland. In fact, even knowing whether abandoned land is increasing or decreasing doesn't necessarily correlate with more or less Mainland going unused.

it makes zero sence to add hundreds of new sims for that silly SSP project when there are hundreds of sims worth of abandoned land on the existing mainland. 

One can only hope they will at least delete the current 512 sq m Linden homes continents

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5 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

it makes zero sence to add hundreds of new sims for that silly SSP project when there are hundreds of sims worth of abandoned land on the existing mainland. 

One can only hope they will at least delete the current 512 sq m Linden homes continents

There are hundreds of sims worth of abandoned land, but there aren't hundred of sims. A lot of abandoned land is a region that's empty except for a small owned parcel or two - to use these regions for something like Linden Homes you'd need to work around the owned parcels or get the owners to move, and you still wouldn't have a large continuous area to work with.

Linden Homes-type regions are efficient because they have a tremendous amount of repeated data and they can also be cloned easily to make multiple continents as needed - this is exactly how they did the old 512-square meter house regions.

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4 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

One can only hope they will at least delete the current 512 sq m Linden homes continents

That's not going to happen because of the Rip van Winkles. A significant proportion of land in SL is owned/rented by people who are no longer active users. They are not ging to move under any circumstance, once their home sim is gone, they are too.

Any rental estate that has been around for a few years will have a substantial number of Rip van Winkles among its tenants. Even I have that and I have only been active in the rental market for three or four years. There is very good reason to believe there is a larger proportion of Rip van Winkles among mainland landowners than among tenants and an even larger proportion among Linden Home owners than among landowners in general. It's fairly safe to assume that more than half the Linden Homes are owned by inactive account and it may be more than three quarters of them. That means that even if not a single active user were interested in the Linden Homes, they would still generate enough net revenue LL couldn't afford to clsoe them.

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1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

At one point I had an offline exchange with Tyche about a class of non-performing Mainland that isn't "abandoned" but doesn't generate tier revenue either.

There is an added complexity there. What exactly do we mean by "unused" or "effectively abandoned" land? A sim where half the land is owned by some over-optimistic land flipper wannabe and the rest by Rip van Winkles, still generates tier income for LL but from a user's perspective it's an empty unused sim.

Edited by ChinRey
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9 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

A lot of abandoned land is a region that's empty except for a small owned parcel or two - to use these regions for something like Linden Homes you'd need to work around the owned parcels or get the owners to move, and you still wouldn't have a large continuous area to work with.

They can still attach new builds to the existing continents though. They did that with Horizons and for all I know (I haven't watched that thread) they may be planning to do so with SSP too.

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1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

There are hundreds of sims worth of abandoned land, but there aren't hundred of sims. A lot of abandoned land is a region that's empty except for a small owned parcel or two - to use these regions for something like Linden Homes you'd need to work around the owned parcels or get the owners to move, and you still wouldn't have a large continuous area to work with.

Linden Homes-type regions are efficient because they have a tremendous amount of repeated data and they can also be cloned easily to make multiple continents as needed - this is exactly how they did the old 512-square meter house regions.

its called infilling. 

I suspect most people that take LL homes wouldn't be caught dead living on real mainland anyway, not with all those "other" mainlanders that actually work to carve out their own little corner and not just settle for having something handed to them.

Edited by Phorumities
why waste a post on just a snippy retort
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1 minute ago, Phorumities said:

its called infilling. 

And a big homebuilder company in an area with a large supply of land will generally build a new subdivision instead of infilling because it's more efficient.  Infilling is what bleeding heart liberals want to make them do. Linden Lab can create land basically by snapping their fingers.

(Theresa Tennyson looks up at her typist who has worked with one of the biggest residential homebuilders in the United States.)

 

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1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

And a big homebuilder company in an area with a large supply of land will generally build a new subdivision instead of infilling because it's more efficient.  Infilling is what bleeding heart liberals want to make them do. Linden Lab can create land basically by snapping their fingers.

(Theresa Tennyson looks up at her typist who has worked with one of the biggest residential homebuilders in the United States.)

 

on the other hand I often see a solitary old farm house on a 1/4 acres surrounded by a sea of new homes. 

 

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2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

That's not going to happen because of the Rip van Winkles. A significant proportion of land in SL is owned/rented by people who are no longer active users. They are not ging to move under any circumstance, once their home sim is gone, they are too.

Any rental estate that has been around for a few years will have a substantial number of Rip van Winkles among its tenants. Even I have that and I have only been active in the rental market for three or four years. There is very good reason to believe there is a larger proportion of Rip van Winkles among mainland landowners than among tenants and an even larger proportion among Linden Home owners than among landowners in general. It's fairly safe to assume that more than half the Linden Homes are owned by inactive account and it may be more than three quarters of them. That means that even if not a single active user were interested in the Linden Homes, they would still generate enough net revenue LL couldn't afford to clsoe them.

I get what you are saying, but I don't understand why LL would hold up progress for those who are no longer active in SL. Bulldoze the land and when or if the person comes back they are welcome to get a new Linden home in the newly developed area. Seems pretty simple to me.

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16 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I get what you are saying, but I don't understand why LL would hold up progress for those who are no longer active in SL. Bulldoze the land and when or if the person comes back they are welcome to get a new Linden home in the newly developed area. Seems pretty simple to me.

Because those inactive users are still paying. Evict them and you will have a revolt.

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1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Because those inactive users are still paying. Evict them and you will have a revolt.

But they aren't using it. Why would they want to keep a 512 with an old, not so attractive house on it? Surely they will want one of the new 1024s with the new homes on the much more attractive continent. They will still have their premium account. They will still be getting their weekly stipend. 

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11 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

But they aren't using it. Why would they want to keep a 512 with an old, not so attractive house on it? Surely they will want one of the new 1024s with the new homes on the much more attractive continent. They will still have their premium account. They will still be getting their weekly stipend. 

When did LL remove the requirement that you must log in once a week to get the stipend? Or is that now just basic accounts that must log in once a week?

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Just now, Selene Gregoire said:

When did LL remove the requirement that you must log in once a week to get the stipend? Or is that now just basic accounts that must log in once a week?

When I had 5 premiums, I only logged in the bonus three (never used them) once or twice a year just to cash out so I could pay for the next year. I always got the stipend. 

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Just now, Blush Bravin said:

When I had 5 premiums, I only logged in the bonus three (never used them) once or twice a year just to cash out so I could pay for the next year. I always got the stipend. 

ok

It's been more than 10 years since I was Premium so I really don't remember. I do know basic accounts (I have 5 4) must log in once a week to get the 50Ls. 

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1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

I get what you are saying, but I don't understand why LL would hold up progress for those who are no longer active in SL.

Because they are the ones who pay LL's bills. We're not talking about pocket money here, it's a huge part of LL's income. It's quite possible that LL makes more money from the SL Rip van Winkles than they make from active users.

There's nothing unusual about this, it happens to all subscription services. Some forget to cancel the recurring bill, some intend to use the services they pay for but never get around to it, some do get around to it every now and then and are willing to pay for those short moments, some do it for old times' sake, some have this vague feeling it's for a good cause...

The one thing they all have in common is that they will only stay as long as it takes them no effort whatsoever. The oment you require them to do something to stay - such as move their home to a different sim - they're gone.

Edited by ChinRey
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12 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Because they are the ones who pay LL's bills. We're not talking about pocket money here, it's a huge part of LL's income. It's quite possible that LL makes more money from the SL Rip van Winkles than they make from active users.

There's nothing unusual about this, it happens to all subscription services. Some forget to cancel the recurring bill, some intend to use the services they pay for but never get around to it, some do get around to it every now and then and are willing to pay for those short moments, some do it for old times' sake, some have this vague feeling it's for a good cause...

The one thing they all have in common is that they will only stay as long as it takes them no effort whatsoever. The oment you require them to do something to stay - such as move their home to a different sim - they're gone.

 

54 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

But they aren't using it. Why would they want to keep a 512 with an old, not so attractive house on it? Surely they will want one of the new 1024s with the new homes on the much more attractive continent. They will still have their premium account. They will still be getting their weekly stipend. 

I seriously think you are over emphasizing just how many of those are out there in Linden homes. I do see a lot of them in mainland but not so much in Linden homes. However, I think most of those with mainland parcels are those who bought the one time fee tier offerings way back from beta. Those won't be impacted at all.

Edited by Blush Bravin
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47 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

When did LL remove the requirement that you must log in once a week to get the stipend? Or is that now just basic accounts that must log in once a week?

 

Yeah, the "log in weekly" rule only applies to the really old Basic accounts that get a stipend:

image.png.2952e5203e0493cd5d05e23227d859cd.png

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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7 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

 

Yeah, the "log in weekly" rule only applies to the really old Basic accounts that get a stipend:

image.png.2952e5203e0493cd5d05e23227d859cd.png

Well... that explains why my alts (except this one) never got the 50Ls. 

Thanks!

It's amazing what you can forget over the years.

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

I get what you are saying, but I don't understand why LL would hold up progress for those who are no longer active in SL. Bulldoze the land and when or if the person comes back they are welcome to get a new Linden home in the newly developed area. Seems pretty simple to me.

I think its called eminent domain

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2 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

I get what you are saying, but I don't understand why LL would hold up progress for those who are no longer active in SL.

I probably shouldn't post two different replies to the same quote but I got curious about the other side of this: In what way do the Linden Homes hold up progress? There's plenty of room for new sims elsewhere so it's not as if they're in the way for anything and nobody's forced to live there or visit there. As for money, if they hadn't brought LL a net income, they would have taken them down long ago.

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