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Tier prices

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1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

so we can have a place to log in and open boxes, if nothing else.

There are groups that allow rez rights to their members and allow them to set home to their land.  The Forum Cartel (link in my forum sig) is one such group. Their plot is good sized, so you could set home to any location there and not necessarily be logging in directly where other people might often be - i.e. a bit of privacy.  There are also some changing rooms in the sky for a bit more privacy - or at least there used to be;  I'd have to double check that part actually.

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Lil is quite right!

Two other places that offer changing rooms:  New Resident Island and Caledon Oxbridge University.  You don't even have to join the groups to use the facilities.

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Another thing that you can do when you are at the top of a tier level, and just want a little more extra land (for the extra prims) but not enough to justify jumping to the next tier level cost:  

- create a premium alt (which you should already have, in order to maximize your land holdings through group bonus and the premium alt's additional 1024 sqm free from tier);

- have your premium alt purchase the additional parcel for the group (depending on the size of the additional parcel, the amount of tier your alt will be charged each month is generally pretty low, compared to moving up to the next tier level).

This lets you slowly increase land ownings at a smaller increment in tier cost than just jumping to the next tier level.

Note:  This makes sense mostly at the mid to high tier levels where the land amount and cost gap between levels is larger.

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1 hour ago, Ethan Paslong said:

oh great idea... i'm going to make 10.000 basic accounts and claim the whole mainland... for FREE

(just to show that's not going to work....) result... no premiums at all anymore.

I didn't say it would work. Or did you not see the word wish in there? 

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Market place was the big instigator why people gave up huge vasts of land , many landowners were able to offset their fees by renting out to small shop owners, but seems LL were more interest taking a slice out of the profits from MK,  and forgot about the mainland.  such shame think we all missed the shopping and it added a experience in sl too 

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2 hours ago, greek Wingtips said:

Market place was the big instigator why people gave up huge vasts of land , many landowners were able to offset their fees by renting out to small shop owners, but seems LL were more interest taking a slice out of the profits from MK,  and forgot about the mainland.  such shame think we all missed the shopping and it added a experience in sl too

Actually, it would be more accurate to say that the Madlands has vast tracts of empty land because...

1. Late 2008, average sale prices dropped below 8 L$/sqm, and the majority of the 2006-2009 crowd, realised they would never get RL rich by 'playing a video game' and just... left...

2. Many of those who stayed decided that the griefers and the dirty fighting of the Madlands Parcel Wars, made the Madlands a terrible place to live and they emigrated to the Private Islands, where life was, simply, better...
 

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No, Klytyna.  There are some problems with that.

First of all, you have to ask WHY Mainland prices dropped.  Second, if a large segment of the population emigrated from the Mainland to Private Estates, we should have seen an increase in the number of Private Estates.  Or, if a lot of people left altogether, the number of regions should have decreased, but the percentage of the grid made up of Private Estates should have increased.

In fact, neither one happened.  Both the absolute numbers of estate regions and the percentage of the grid that they make up have been slowly decreasing.  Around 2010 or so, estate regions were around 75% of the grid.  Now they are around 67%.

Back to the first point...why did Mainland prices drop?  Several reasons, in my opinion.  One is the one you cite...the availability of the Marketplace has indeed caused a lot of in world stores to close.  Just like online shopping on Amazon has undercut brick and mortar real life retail stores.  But there are other factors too.  LL created a lot of additional Mainland...Bay City, Nautilus City, the Linden Homes continents, and the Zindra Adult continent.  At the same time, they introduced Homestead and OpenSpace regions,  and a lot of Private Estate owners jumped at the chance to expand their empires at a lower cost.  All of these factors combined to create a serious land glut.  People couldn't sell their Mainland at any price, and Abandoned it.  For several years, LL had so much land on their hands that the Auctions couldn't handle it.  They simply set it for sale, at $L1 per sq. m.  This had the effect of setting a base price on ALL Mainland.  Unless your parcel was something really special, like protected waterfront on the Blake Sea, you couldn't sell for much more than LL's Abandoned Land.

This glut has been very slowly correcting itself, for the last eight or nine years, and with LL's reduction in land purchase prices and tier, and increased prim allowances, it's now getting hard to find nice Mainland...and prices for desirable Mainland parcels are going up.

I do worry that the introduction of another 350 regions of new and larger Linden Homes could reverse this, though.

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8 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I do worry that the introduction of another 350 regions of new and larger Linden Homes could reverse this, though.

This is why I hope they will evacuate the current Linden Homes continents and delete them once the new Linden Home regions are introduced.

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9 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

No, Klytyna.  There are some problems with that.

Do tell...

9 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Both the absolute numbers of estate regions and the percentage of the grid that they make up have been slowly decreasing.  Around 2010 or so, estate regions were around 75% of the grid.  Now they are around 67%.

Can't disagree with that, but I do ask what exactly the drop in the number of estate sims between 2010 and 2018, has to do with the drop in average Madlands prices between 2007 and 2009? Or with the mass exodus of would be Madlands property speculators from SL, between late 2008 and 2010.

You know, that massive drop in the population graph, that marked the end of the "Golden Age of the Madlands".

9 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

why did Mainland prices drop?  Several reasons, in my opinion.

Mhmmm...

9 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

LL created a lot of additional Mainland...Bay City, Nautilus City, the Linden Homes continents, and the Zindra Adult continent.

Too much bloody Madlands... Land Glut, caused by poor market research.

9 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

At the same time, they introduced Homestead and OpenSpace regions,  and a lot of Private Estate owners jumped at the chance to expand their empires at a lower cost.

Wait... You blame people abandoning the Madlands on the creation of Homesteads and Openspace sims?

But... Why would Happy Contended Madlanders abandon their Cheaper Than Ever parcels, to move to more expensive homestead sims, unless...

15 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Many of those who stayed decided that the griefers and the dirty fighting of the Madlands Parcel Wars, made the Madlands a terrible place to live and they emigrated to the Private Islands, where life was, simply, better...

So, you claim my point is wrong, then cheerfully cite the evidence that supports my point to prove the point is wrong... Hahaha...

Two ways of saying EXACTLY the same thing...

People left the Madlands because they decided it was a craphole, and the Islands were better EVEN if it cost them more to live there.

9 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

This glut has been very slowly correcting itself, for the last eight or nine years,

Really? How exactly? The excess Madlands you referred to...

9 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Bay City, Nautilus City, the Linden Homes continents, and the Zindra Adult continent

...Are  still there... And while there has been a slow but steady drop in the number of Estate sims, there's also been a steady drop in the number of people IN SL, and living on the Madlands...

How exactly does "Same amount of dirt, fewer people willing to buy it" correct a land glut? The answer is it doesn't.

There has been a land glut for most of the last 10 years, there has also been an inflated market for that glut of land  for most of the last 10 years, the only large surge in demand has happened RECENTLY, as in THIS year with the "Tiericide" campaign.

9 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I do worry that the introduction of another 350 regions of new and larger Linden Homes could reverse this, though.

Well hell yes... Logical at last, yet more  un-needed Madlands, will only increase the glut...

Personally though I don't expect it to have that much effect on prices, the Madlands prices are part of a "bubble" economy maintained by the land flippers anyway, with little connection to "supply or demand" thinking, adding more un-demanded supply won't change artificial prices by any significant degree, especially if the new plots ARE "Entitlement Club" properties that can't be sold or otherwise used for "land speculation".

And odds are the old 512 entitlement club ghettos will simply be trimmed back further, as they have been in the past to compensate for falling "EntitleMent Club" membership figures, so the creation of new club ghettos, won't do a damn thing to lower stupid inflated bubble prices for roadside on Zindra.

9 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

the availability of the Marketplace has indeed caused a lot of in world stores to close.

Sure in worlds stores have closed, but , again, a lot of stores have MOVED from Madlands to Islands..., seeking to escape griefers, or laggy neighbours or whatever, you can't blame Madlands store depletion entirely on the MP.

...

Simple truth here is that the claim that "The MP is destroying the Madlands, LL has forgotten us, close the MP and make the Madlands great again..." is just clueless wailing from people mis-remembering a "golden age" that never really existed.



 

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In some cases we are arguing the same thing, but a couple of corrections...

  • The land glut was not entirely due to LL creating too much Mainland.  A significant part of it was the unexpected popularity of Homestead and OpenSpace regions, as I pointed out.  The glut was "too much grid", not simply "too much Mainland".
  • I have no data, but I distrust your claim that stores moved from the Mainland to Private Estates.  My impression is that a lot of stores have always been on private regions.
  • I am not cluelessly wailing that the Marketplace is destroying Mainland.  My argument is that the Marketplace, by offering much lower overhead, is resulting in fewer in-world stores, on the Mainland and on Private Estates both.  I think this is shortsighted on LL's part, since they'd make more income from tier on stores than from the MP sales of that same creator, but perhaps they have no choice.  There would be a huge outcry if they closed the MP or raised sales taxes.
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There was no mass exodus in 2008-2010. There has never been a mass exodus. There was a rash of creators who left SL in 2005/6 because of a change on the TOS. Mainland has been pretty much dead since then. Once LL open up the ability to purchase "private estates" and the land barons pounced, that was pretty much all she wrote for mainland. It's been a wasteland ever since. Marketplace only contributed to the problem.

https://www.lindenlab.com/releases/now-selling-real-estate-on-the-digital-frontier

Quote

SAN FRANCISCO, CA - March 30, 2004 - Linden Lab, creators of Second Life, the acclaimed 3D online world, announced today the sale of private virtual islands to Second Life Residents. This availability of island property expands on the current offering of land at online auctions, and supports the surge in diversification and community development that has accompanied the boom in content creation and population growth.

 

Edited by Selene Gregoire

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10 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

There was no mass exodus in 2008-2010. There has never been a mass exodus.

You ever seen that "famous" graph of SL population, the one from the grid survey site, that a;; the doomsaying sky-is-falling merchants for the last 10 years keep posting...

Go find a copy, look at how the population slowly increased between the opening of SL, and late 2006...

Then notice the MASSIVE spike upwards and then notice the fairly massive falloff after early 2009...

Then tell us all how there was "no mass exodus".

While you are checking the grid survey site, you might also check their data on average Madlands prices... and when they peaked.

Apparently, after 2005/6 when according to you "Madlands was pretty much dead", land prices rose sharply during that 2006-2009 population spike, and then, slumped down below 8 ls /sqm (did you think I just pulled that number out of thin air?).

Late 2006 to mid 2008 was a bit of a boom time for Madlands land prices, prices whos substantial drop coincides with a substantial drop in the number of potential buyers...

The numbers are a matter of public record.
 

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32 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I distrust your claim that stores moved from the Mainland to Private Estates.  My impression is that a lot of stores have always been on private regions

I didn't claim that all the stores that vanished from the Madlands went Islands...

Some moved to the MP, some simply closed up for good...

But some moved, the point is that certain Rose tinted blindfold wearing, golden age mourning, doomsayers claiming that "All that empty wasteland is because stores moved from the Madlands to the MP" is over simplistic and almost certainly factually  incorrect BS.

45 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

The land glut was not entirely due to LL creating too much Mainland.  A significant part of it was the unexpected popularity of Homestead and OpenSpace regions, as I pointed out.  The glut was "too much grid", not simply "too much Mainland".

Estate sims that theres no market for, close... LL doesn't leave them open and 'abandoned'.

It's not "too much grid" it's clearly "too much Madlands", because the non Madlands sims, the new homesteads and openspaces, were being occupied, no customers for those sims, no creation of those sims. People LEFT Madlands for the new type of estate sims...

Too much Madlands.

36 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I am not cluelessly wailing that the Marketplace is destroying Mainland.

Never said you did... The person doing that is Greek... Who's post was the one I originally replied to.

All his threads go the same way...

"Hi I'm Greek, and I'm an old account... SL is doomed! This is because LL have forgotten the Madlands, and forgotten people like me, who are special, I deserve special rules to allow me to increase my prim allowance without having to pay more money! Also, there are too many noobs around, and the MP is evil because, nobody wants to live and work in the Madlands!

Close the MP, ban noobs, MAKE THE MADLANDS GREAT AGAIN!

PS Can i have more prims without having to pay."

...

It's like a one man Trump rally held by a village postmaster, in one of those forgotten towns that's been abandoned because the worked out coal seams under the town have caught fire, and the whole abandoned town  can be bought for a dollar because the subsidence and toxic fumes make it uninhabitable...
 

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27 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

You ever seen that "famous" graph of SL population, the one from the grid survey site, that a;; the doomsaying sky-is-falling merchants for the last 10 years keep posting...

Go find a copy, look at how the population slowly increased between the opening of SL, and late 2006...

Then notice the MASSIVE spike upwards and then notice the fairly massive falloff after early 2009...

Then tell us all how there was "no mass exodus".

While you are checking the grid survey site, you might also check their data on average Madlands prices... and when they peaked.

Apparently, after 2005/6 when according to you "Madlands was pretty much dead", land prices rose sharply during that 2006-2009 population spike, and then, slumped down below 8 ls /sqm (did you think I just pulled that number out of thin air?).

Late 2006 to mid 2008 was a bit of a boom time for Madlands land prices, prices whos substantial drop coincides with a substantial drop in the number of potential buyers...

The numbers are a matter of public record.
 

I don't need to go look anything up. I witnessed the whole thing. I've been a resident since April 13, 2004.

Other than that, I have to go to work so I don't have time anyway. Have a good day! :D

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5 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I don't need to go look anything up. I witnessed the whole thing. I've been a resident since April 13, 2004.

Ahhh! the "I don't need no stinking facts, I have misremembered memories seen through  Rose Tinted Welding goggles!" defence...

Well done, now we all know that your memory is failing, we can safely discount any testimony from your corner...



 

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20 hours ago, greek Wingtips said:

Market place was the big instigator why people gave up huge vasts of land , many landowners were able to offset their fees by renting out to small shop owners, but seems LL were more interest taking a slice out of the profits from MK,  and forgot about the mainland.  such shame think we all missed the shopping and it added a experience in sl too 

MP certainly made it less interesting to rent land for a store inworld but you get the timeline wrong. Linden Lab didn't create MP. There were several SL foucsed online stores before LL got involved in it. I'm fairly sure that back then they would have preferred to keep trading in-world but they couldn't. So to keep sme sort of control, they bought the two biggest operators, closed down one and used the secodn to squeeze all the competitors out of the market.

It's only recently they've started to look at MP as a serious income source.

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Is the implication that, when LL took away the need for “magic boxes” inworld for MP sales, suddenly people needed less land (no need for box-o-products linked to MP)?

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2 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

There was no mass exodus in 2008-2010. There has never been a mass exodus. There was a rash of creators who left SL in 2005/6 because of a change on the TOS. Mainland has been pretty much dead since then. Once LL open up the ability to purchase "private estates" and the land barons pounced, that was pretty much all she wrote for mainland. It's been a wasteland ever since. Marketplace only contributed to the problem.

You may well have been in SL since 2004, but your memory about the above isn't right. I've only been here since the very end of 2006, so I've no idea about a change in the ToS prior to my arrival that caused some creators to leave, but I do know for a certainty that mainland was full and thriving for years after I joined -  right up until the marketplace did away with the need for land for a store, whenever that was. It's the marketplace that caused the current state of the mainland.

 

56 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

There were several SL foucsed online stores before LL got involved in it. I'm fairly sure that back then they would have preferred to keep trading in-world but they couldn't.

LL didn't get into off-world trading through any sort of necessity. They got into it solely for profit. They wanted a cut of the sales, that's all. The 2 off-world businesses that they bought didn't take much of the sales out of SL, so the reason you suggested for LL getting into it didn't exist. If it had, stores would have been closing left right and center at the time, but they weren't. In fact, I doubt that anyone sold exclusively in those places

Edited by Phil Deakins

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On 10/26/2018 at 2:54 AM, Sandy Schnook said:

I have plenty now, but what some folks don't do often enough, is roam around their places and experiment with linking items or shrinking them down or go to a sandbox and try combos of items.  Tis particularly works well with copyable, small items.  A lot of those little 1LI items can often be linked, turning 3 separate items with 3LI total into 1LI.  Also shrink stuff down.  We become used to living in huge monstrosities, often with the furniture taking up just 1/8 the entire room.  You'd be surprised how much you might be able to drop just by shrinking your home just a small bit.  I have plenty of LI right now and still do these simple things whenever I can.

While what you're saying makes complete sense, as a photographer I wish it were not so. I've lost count of the number of times I've wanted to derender a small piece of clutter to help make a photo work, and ended up derendering half the house. It's infuriating for me, yet totally justifiable for the sim owner to do that.

Not sure what the solution is. Only one I can think of is if LL added a 0 to add LI counts - so rather than 3 '0.3LI' objects (that appear as 1LI) turning into 1 '0.9LI' object (that appears as 1LI), you have 3 3LI objects turning into 1 9LI object. You'd have a LI budget 10x of the current total, of course, so there's no loss to anyone involved, and most people would actually gain a few prims from this. Probably not worth the effort for a few fringe issues though.

Edited by AyelaNewLife
Clarification

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2 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Too much Madlands.

My recollection is that in June 2006 when SL went free-to-play, the Lab couldn't print land fast enough. There was a long setup wait for new private islands, and the Mainland was expanding as fast as the Lindens could make it happen. Garden variety inland flat green parcels brought L$10/sq.m. or more -- often "first land" parcels being sold-off to flippers. As well as first land parcels, freshly-minted whole regions sold to flippers who carved them into 512s, the less pesky infrastructure the better.

As the land-printing process accelerated, private estates could set up new regions with practically no wait, and the Mainland expanded, Jeogeot completing, then Satori (Feb-Jun 2007), Nautilus (Apr-Nov 2007), Corsica (Aug 2007 - Apr 2008), and (oops) Gaeta V (Apr - May 2008), and (oopsy-oops) Gaeta 1 (Jun 2008) which halted construction, incomplete, due to clear over-capacity.

They tried "city-zoned" theme areas Bay City and Nautilus City, which had high demand, but as in RL real estate development, it's a zero-sum game, and so there was even less demand remaining to keep the continents full.

And then in summer 2009 came the adult content policy, spawning the 348-region Zindra continent where all us pixel pornographers were exiled, even though it was clear there was already too much Mainland before Zindra had to be created.

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adding to people withdrawing from mainland parcel market activity *circa 2008 as I remember* was the ban on cutting for sale parcels to less than 512m, and the tightening of the rules around "advertising"

the 16m... < 512m parcel "advertising market" was pretty active up until the ban came in

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4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

My recollection is that in June 2006 when SL went free-to-play, the Lab couldn't print land fast enough. There was a long setup wait for new private islands, and the Mainland was expanding as fast as the Lindens could make it happen. Garden variety inland flat green parcels brought L$10/sq.m. or more -- often "first land" parcels being sold-off to flippers. As well as first land parcels, freshly-minted whole regions sold to flippers who carved them into 512s, the less pesky infrastructure the better.

As the land-printing process accelerated, private estates could set up new regions with practically no wait, and the Mainland expanded, Jeogeot completing, then Satori (Feb-Jun 2007), Nautilus (Apr-Nov 2007), Corsica (Aug 2007 - Apr 2008), and (oops) Gaeta V (Apr - May 2008), and (oopsy-oops) Gaeta 1 (Jun 2008) which halted construction, incomplete, due to clear over-capacity.

They tried "city-zoned" theme areas Bay City and Nautilus City, which had high demand, but as in RL real estate development, it's a zero-sum game, and so there was even less demand remaining to keep the continents full.

And then in summer 2009 came the adult content policy, spawning the 348-region Zindra continent where all us pixel pornographers were exiled, even though it was clear there was already too much Mainland before Zindra had to be created.

Interestingly enough, after the "Exodus When Land Values Dropped" in 2008, the "Exodus After Linden Lab Bought the Marketplace" in early 2009, the "Exodus After Adult Locations Moved to Zindra" in late 2009, the "Exodus After Linden Homes were Introduced" in early 2010 and, not to forget, the "Exodus in 2005/2006 that Left the Mainland Pretty Much Dead Before Two Thirds of it Was Even Built," Tyche Shepherd apparently found that the total amount of abandoned Mainland in December 2010 was (wait for it...) 7.7%.

Abandoned.thumb.jpg.612476625e9dafc61bf569cc36e0ab6c.jpg

The amount of Mainland abandoned gradually increased after that in a pattern that looks pretty similar to the pattern of private regions permanently closing over the same amount of time (note that this chart's time scale isn't linear and the last few bars are much further apart in time than the first few.

8 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Ahhh! the "I don't need no stinking facts, I have misremembered memories seen through  Rose Tinted Welding goggles!" defence...

Well done, now we all know that your memory is failing, we can safely discount any testimony from your corner...

 

Looks like a lot of people should investigate new eyewear...

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Tyche's thread on SLU was one I would read even when I wasn't logging in. I've forgotten how far back it goes. Sometime around 2007 I think is when she started it. Not sure if she posted on the old SLU. I'd link it but can't until Cris gets SLU archived and back up, which could take several weeks more. The switch to VV1 occurred a little more than a month ago.

Edited by Selene Gregoire

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3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Interestingly enough, after the "Exodus When Land Values Dropped" in 2008, the "Exodus After Linden Lab Bought the Marketplace" in early 2009, the "Exodus After Adult Locations Moved to Zindra" in late 2009, the "Exodus After Linden Homes were Introduced" in early 2010 and, not to forget, the "Exodus in 2005/2006 that Left the Mainland Pretty Much Dead Before Two Thirds of it Was Even Built," Tyche Shepherd apparently found that the total amount of abandoned Mainland in December 2010 was (wait for it...) 7.7%.

That's quite interesting. We need a little bit more data to draw a conclusion though:

How much of mainland was owned by Linden Lab and not available for sale at various times? That should be easy to find out.

How much "unsellable" mainland was held by sellers? That's going to be very difficult to estimate.

How many Linden Homes sims were there? December 2010 was shortly after they were launched and they filled up quite fast.

----

To speculate a bit. Some of the numbers here are hypotetical and are only intended to illustrate how significant these three factors might be.

Let's say there were 7,500 mainland sims in December 2010. 7.7% of that is 578 sims.

Let's say the amount of land held by land flippers who hadn't noticed that things had changed was a quarter of that - 144 sims.Those parcel were not technically abandoned and still provided tier income for LL but they were not in use.

Let's say there were 700 sims worth of land used by LL themselves (the roads and waterways, the infohubs, Linden Village, Blake Sea, the Gaeta 1 sims that never were auctioned off etc., etc.) and 500 sims of Linden Homes.

That would mean the number of regular mainland sims avaiable to users would be 6,300. 578 sims would be 9.2% of that, 578+144 sims, 11.5%.

Let's assume some of the land that was abandoned between 2008 and 2010 was taken off the market an reassigned to various LL projects or maybe even taken off the grid.

Let's say there were 6,500 mainland sims available for users to own in 2008. By the end of 2010 578 of them were abandoned, 144 were held by land flippers who couldn't shift them, 300 were reassigned to other purposes or removed. That would mean that 15.7% of the land LL couldn't print enough of before 2008 was no longer interesting for users to buy in 2010. That's acually twice the documented amount of abandoned land.

Now, as I said, although those numbers are not taken out of thin air, they are hypothetical so don't take them too literally. But they do show that the documented number of abandoned land only is part of the story.

There is one factor that we can estimate fairly precisely. Linden Lab released Blake Sea in 2009. Those sims will never be abandoned of course but they did add to the to total number of mainland sims. If it wasn't for those sims, Tyche Shepherd's December 2010 stats would have shown 7.8% abanonded land. That is just one minor part of this picture and it's still enough to show up (allbeit barely) in the statistics.

 

 

Edited by ChinRey

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on Tyche Shepard site here: http://gridsurvey.com/

is the history chart (name: Main Grid Regions) since October 2007 when the survey started

if anyone was interested enough then could date map all the events mentioned against the history chart

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