My thoughts on mainland

[Callum Meriman]

chocolate, dark. 80% mass!

[Blush Bravin]

6 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

A yearly Premium account costs.... $72 a year.

Linden stipend is NOT money back, it is not Linden Lab paying you back.

People really need to stop pretending that the average user or Premium subscriber just sits on their Stipend, waiting to convert it or cash it out. 

You are talking about potential cost reduction -while helpful it irritates me to no end that such reduction methods are presented in such a way as to be The Way It Is. 

I could save far more than current Premium users by sitting on the L$400 a week stipend I receive, converting it after a few months.... Like most, that Stipend goes elsewhere. 

Is it L$ I end up not purchasing? Yes and in that way and that way alone it can be viewed as saving money.

No, I'm not going to debate this. No, I'm not looking for discussion on the matter. And I really don't care all that much that you or anyone else that posts here does it differently. 

I'm simply not in the mood to have let that bit of misinformation slip by without comment. There's my reaction, here's my comment. Moving on. 

Have a nice day. 

When I had five premium accounts I left three of them to do nothing but collect the stipend. I logged them on once a year to cash out what they had received each week to pay the next year's annual payment. So I think you're taking what you would do and putting it on everyone else.

Being an active merchant I haven't purchased Lindens in years, but if I weren't making Lindens in SL and I indeed did spend that stipend money it is Lindens dollars I would have purchased for shopping anyway. So yes, it still saves you money. Money is money whether you use it to buy a pair of shoes or cash out to pay for tier. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Blush Bravin
correct spelling

[Phil Deakins]

9 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

When I had five premium accounts I left three of them to do nothing but collect the stipend. I logged them on once a year to cash out what they had received each week to pay the next year's annual payment.

I imagine that that's what quite a few people have done since the land allowance went up, although with different numbers of extra premium accounts. I'm doing exactly the same thing with just one extra premium. I'd do it with more if I had a use for more land, but 2048 + 10% is more than enough for me these days.

It's been argued that LL doesn't give money back in the form of stipends and, whilst that is true, there are 2 ways in which the stipends can be thought of as real money. One is what you described - keeping it and cashing it out after a year. The other is what's also been described - avoiding the need to spend as much real money on L$. Both are valid to consider as LL giving money back.

The only people who wouldn't benefit from a premium account are those who never put real money in for any reason. There are plenty of those too so, for them, a premium account isn't as cheap as it is for others.

[Blush Bravin]

2 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

The only people who wouldn't benefit from a premium account are those who never put real money in for any reason. There are plenty of those too so, for them, a premium account isn't as cheap as it is for others.

People who don't put any money ever in SL are going to have a hard time renting a private parcel as well. If they have an SL job and can afford to rent, they'd be better off saving that money and cashing it out and upgrading to premium. They'd get a home with no tier or rent, 300 a week to spend, and extra group spaces so they can collect all those free group gifts. Anyway you slice it going premium makes the most economical sense to me.

[KanryDrago]

8 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

A premium account costs $72 a year. But you get L$300 back in stipend every week. Add that up and you'll find that amounts to about $60 bucks a year you get back. So in reality a Premium account, and the accompanying 1126.4sq.m. of land only costs you $12 a year, or $1 a month. You're also not limited to one Premium account. If you create three Premium accounts that is $3 a month for 3379.2sq.m. 1024sq.m. by itself costs $7 a month. So if you went that route 4505sq.m. costs you only $8/mo. Half what you're currently paying for the same space in an estate, and you get a little bit more space to boot.

As for the upfront fee, it depends on how long you have the land. If you keep it long enough, eventually the amount you save in tier every month will exceed the amount it cost you up front to buy the land. And remember, because of the 10% tier boost, as you increase the amount of land you pay for, on mainland, the more free land you get in addition to what you're paying for. You don't get that deal with a private estate.

And that is how I make the statement that mainland is a cheaper alternative to private estates. 

 

That theory relies on the user having a spare 216$ lying around to pay premium for 3 account, I discount the stipend part of your argument as it would barely cover a night out dancing in tips but then I am not a miser and reward those that entertain me. It would not save me money just give me more lindens to spend each month as I wouldn't change my monthly hobby budget.

What it would do however is put me at risk of getting my account locked by the labs if for unforseen circumstances there is no money in my account when they try and take their payment which as I noted recently happened to a friend of mine. Whereas the worst that happens renting of a landlord is they return my items (my current landlord being a good one when I was laid off just before christmas and I explained to him just said dont worry start paying rent again when you can)

[Penny Patton]

8 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Not at all what I said or described either, hence the not discussing it. You see what you wish to - as always. 

No, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that, unlike usual, there was some gem of reason in your disagreement.

Apparently I was wrong!

[Penny Patton]

2 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

That theory

Theory? Well, I suppose you could call it a "theory" in the scientific sense. An explanation that can be repeatedly tested, in accordance with the scientific method, using a predefined protocol of observation and experiment, that has withstood rigorous scrutiny.

2 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

It would not save me money just give me more lindens to spend each month as I wouldn't change my monthly hobby budget.

You're saying "it would not save me money, it would just give me more money to spend" but then arguing since you'd choose to spend that money elsewhere it's....not money? And that you don't consider paying half was much to be saving any money because you don't consider paying half the price to be all that big a difference? Look, you can discount the facts if you like, but it's still a fact that I pay far less for my land than you pay for yours. No matter what gets posted in this thread, I am still paying less for my land, than you are paying for yours. Yes, if you buy all your land all at once it costs more up front, but I didn't do it that way. I don't think most people do. But even if you do pay it all up front, you're still saving money in the long term.

 Like I said to Solar, if you can't help yourself but spend that money then you won't save money, but that's entirely on you.

2 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

What it would do however is put me at risk of getting my account locked by the labs if for unforseen circumstances there is no money in my account when they try and take their payment which as I noted recently happened to a friend of mine.

And I feel for your friend, but as you yourself said, it happened because they forgot to cancel their account after being laid off. It's not really the risk you make it out to be.

That said, there are certainly benefits to living in an estate. I'm not saying otherwise. I lived in The Wastelands and New Babbage for years and it was fantastic. I loved my time in those sims. If I could afford it, I'd still have my parcels there today. All I'm saying is that mainland is less expensive. A lot less expensive if you take advantage of the cost saving avenues that LL makes available.

 

 

[Solar Legion]

7 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

No, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that, unlike usual, there was some gem of reason in your disagreement.

Apparently I was wrong!

That's nice - thanks for proving my point with your usual attitude.

Good day.

[Penny Patton]

2 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

That's nice - thanks for proving my point with your usual attitude.

Good day.

I'm still paying a lot less for land.

[Garnet Psaltery]

LINDT!

[KanryDrago]

6 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Theory? Well, I suppose you could call it a "theory" in the scientific sense. An explanation that can be repeatedly tested, in accordance with the scientific method, using a predefined protocol of observation and experiment, that has withstood rigorous scrutiny.

You're saying "it would not save me money, it would just give me more money to spend" but then arguing since you'd choose to spend that money elsewhere it's....not money? And that you don't consider paying half was much to be saving any money because you don't consider paying half the price to be all that big a difference? Look, you can discount the facts if you like, but it's still a fact that I pay far less for my land than you pay for yours. No matter what gets posted in this thread, I am still paying less for my land, than you are paying for yours. Yes, if you buy all your land all at once it costs more up front, but I didn't do it that way. I don't think most people do. But even if you do pay it all up front, you're still saving money in the long term.

 Like I said to Solar, if you can't help yourself but spend that money then you won't save money, but that's entirely on you.

And I feel for your friend, but as you yourself said, it happened because they forgot to cancel their account after being laid off. It's not really the risk you make it out to be.

That said, there are certainly benefits to living in an estate. I'm not saying otherwise. I lived in The Wastelands and New Babbage for years and it was fantastic. I loved my time in those sims. If I could afford it, I'd still have my parcels there today. All I'm saying is that mainland is less expensive. A lot less expensive if you take advantage of the cost saving avenues that LL makes available.

 

 

1) you neglected the point where I said to get to those prices you would have to buy 3 annual subs in one go at a cost of 216 dollars (260 dollars for me with taxes) so if I was to do it then I would have to pay monthly which would cost me 34 dollars a month with taxes with the stipend my monthly hobby budget would then allow me to buy 4000 lindens +900 stipend. Currently I buy 12500 lindens a month and pay 4000 in rent leaving me 8500 lindens to spend, basically your way reduces my spending power in game by almost half straight away and that is before factoring in that I would need to buy the plot of land. Yes for some people it can work out cheaper not for all people though

2) defaulting on that payment is a very real risk to me as it only takes an invoice going unpaid till late to mean I have to batten down the hatches and not spend luxury money to make sure all my rl bills have funds available until it comes in. Buying Lindens and renting allows me that control a subscription doesnt and yes it was my friends fault for not cancelling be laid off at the time gave her other things to worry about and it slipped her mind.

[Penny Patton]

Just now, KanryDrago said:

1) you neglected the point where I said to get to those prices you would have to buy 3 annual subs in one go at a cost of 216 dollars

 

17 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Yes, if you buy all your land all at once it costs more up front, but I didn't do it that way. I don't think most people do. But even if you do pay it all up front, you're still saving money in the long term.

No I didn't.

1 minute ago, KanryDrago said:

2) defaulting on that payment is a very real risk to me as it only takes an invoice going unpaid till late to mean I have to batten down the hatches and not spend luxury money to make sure all my rl bills have funds available until it comes in.

I'm a freelancer. In the past month I had four clients bail on me at the last moment leaving me in a terrible financial bind. I can totally relate to that. But because I don't spend my stipend, each of my premium payments, which are spread out across the year, only costs a fraction of what it normally would. As I pointed out, if you save that L$300 stipend, your Premium account only costs about $12USD.

 

[Penny Patton]

And remember, I'm not arguing that there is no benefit to renting from an estate rather than owning mainland. The flexibility on payment can be such a benefit (YMMV depending on your landlord, of course). My argument about mainland begins and ends with "it costs me less money than the same amount of land in an estate".

[KanryDrago]

2 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

 

No I didn't.

I'm a freelancer. In the past month I had four clients bail on me at the last moment leaving me in a terrible financial bind. I can totally relate to that. But because I don't spend my stipend, each of my premium payments, which are spread out across the year, only costs a fraction of what it normally would. As I pointed out, if you save that L$300 stipend, your Premium account only costs about $12USD.

 

You are still ignoring the issue that to buy even one annual sub basically I have to save my hobby money for 2 months and basically not play sl in a way I enjoy. Then repeat twice more for the other 2 subs, then when all thats done I have to do the same over when it comes time to renewal so my sl would go

Month 1 dont play sl

Month 2 dont play sl buy sub 1

Month 3 dont play sl

Month 4 dont play sl buy sub 2

Month 5 dont play sl

Month 6 dont play sl buy sub 3 yay now I can buy land and finally put my house uo

.....

Month 11 dont play sl so I can save to renew sub1

Month 12 dont play sl so I can renew sub1

months 7,8 and 9 would be great though

 

[Blush Bravin]

I'll agree that for a person who doesn't have a real knowledge of how the land market works in SL, or has a problem budgeting their SL finances (ie. willpower to save that stipend) then perhaps renting is a better choice for them. I have always sought prime land when I buy. But I search for something that is a really good buy but yet still a prime location. Are those easy to find? No, they aren't. You have to put work into it. But also, once you find such a location you're probably going to stay there a good amount of time. When you decide you want to move you will most likely get all the purchase price back with a bit of added profit if you bought wisely to begin with. Then you can do a new search. In the many years I've been in SL I have owned few properties. I like settling in and getting to know my surroundings and my neighbors.

[Penny Patton]

11 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

You are still ignoring the issue that to buy even one annual sub basically I have to save my hobby money for 2 months and basically not play sl in a way I enjoy.

I'm not ignoring. I pointed out there's a higher up front cost.

 Once you get past that, you have more money to enjoy SL with.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Penny Patton

[Penny Patton]

And no matter how many times Solar hits the guffaw button, I'm still saving money! Funny how that works! 

[Phorumities]

27 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

1) you neglected the point where I said to get to those prices you would have to buy 3 annual subs in one go at a cost of 216 dollars (260 dollars for me with taxes) so if I was to do it then I would have to pay monthly which would cost me 34 dollars a month with taxes with the stipend my monthly hobby budget would then allow me to buy 4000 lindens +900 stipend. Currently I buy 12500 lindens a month and pay 4000 in rent leaving me 8500 lindens to spend, basically your way reduces my spending power in game by almost half straight away and that is before factoring in that I would need to buy the plot of land. Yes for some people it can work out cheaper not for all people though

2) defaulting on that payment is a very real risk to me as it only takes an invoice going unpaid till late to mean I have to batten down the hatches and not spend luxury money to make sure all my rl bills have funds available until it comes in. Buying Lindens and renting allows me that control a subscription doesnt and yes it was my friends fault for not cancelling be laid off at the time gave her other things to worry about and it slipped her mind.

Why would anyone going premium pay by the month?  Benefits exceed costs only if you pay yearly.

[KanryDrago]

4 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

I'm not ignoring. I pointed out there's a higher up front cost.

 Once you get past that, you have more money to enjoy SL with.

And my response was to you claiming its always cheaper, now if you had said if you can afford the upfront cost of an annual sub then I might have been less inclined to say you were wrong though even there you are making false assumptions by asserting that the cost of an annual sub is 72$ and basing your calculations on how much it actually costs on that. There are other countries except the usa and some of them put surcharges and taxes on subscriptions which raise the cost of them

[KanryDrago]

1 minute ago, Phorumities said:

Why would anyone going premium pay by the month?  Benefits exceed costs only if you pay yearly.

Which was the point I was making to Penny. It only works if you can afford the up front cost of an annual subscription

[Solar Legion]

That's nice - keep pretending you're the norm.

[Penny Patton]

7 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

And my response was to you claiming its always cheaper, now if you had said if you can afford the upfront cost of an annual sub then I might have been less inclined to say you were wrong

 

12 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

As for the upfront fee, it depends on how long you have the land. If you keep it long enough, eventually the amount you save in tier every month will exceed the amount it cost you up front to buy the land.

The above is from my first response.

54 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Yes, if you buy all your land all at once it costs more up front,

Again acknowledging the higher up front fee in my second response to you.

16 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

I'm not ignoring. I pointed out there's a higher up front cost.

And again.

There is a higher up front cost, both on the Premium accounts (which you can spread out if you don't want need all the land all at once) and for the initial purchase cost of the mainland parcels (which, again, can be spread out. Though this can be more difficult and requires more patience.) I've acknowledged this since the beginning.

12 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

even there you are making false assumptions by asserting that the cost of an annual sub is 72$ and basing your calculations on how much it actually costs on that.

https://secondlife.com/premium/

The price of $72 for an annual membership is listed at the bottom of the page.

13 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

There are other countries except the usa and some of them put surcharges and taxes on subscriptions which raise the cost of them

You're absolutely right! I forgot all about that. However, don't you also pay those surcharges and taxes when purchasing the L$ you use both to pay for your land and your spending money? If there's some loophole here, please share it and I will amend my statements going forward.

13 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

That's nice - keep pretending you're the norm.

Anyone can use these features to enjoy the same savings that I continue to enjoy no matter how hard you believe it's not possible! Even you! It's just that most aren't aware of them, something I pointed out in my very first post to this thread.

[Blush Bravin]

22 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

And my response was to you claiming its always cheaper, now if you had said if you can afford the upfront cost of an annual sub then I might have been less inclined to say you were wrong though even there you are making false assumptions by asserting that the cost of an annual sub is 72$ and basing your calculations on how much it actually costs on that. There are other countries except the usa and some of them put surcharges and taxes on subscriptions which raise the cost of them

This is like someone buying a mattress and putting it on credit because it's cheaper up front. lol .. at the end see who paid the most .. the person paying cash and walking out with the mattress or someone who took the payment plan and paid for another five years.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Blush Bravin

[KanryDrago]

5 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

 

You're absolutely right! I forgot all about that. However, don't you also pay those surcharges and taxes when purchasing the L$ you use both to pay for your land and your spending money? If there's some loophole here, please share it and I will amend my statements going forward.

 

When I buy lindens there are no taxes added when I buy any game sub there is

[Phil Deakins]

6 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Anyone can use these features to enjoy the same savings that I continue to enjoy no matter how hard you believe it's not possible! Even you! It's just that most aren't aware of them, something I pointed out in my very first post to this thread.

It's not intuitively obvious, but regulars of this forum know all about it, because it's been discussed at length a number of times, before and after the land allowance doubled.