My thoughts on mainland

[KanryDrago]

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

This is like someone buying a mattress and putting it on credit because it's cheaper up front. lol .. at the end see who paid the most .. the person paying cash and walking out with the mattress or someone who took the payment plan and paid for another five years.

Which is true but assumes you can afford the mattress up front, if you can't your choice is sleep on the floor for x months while you save up or go the credit route

There is also one major flaw in the subs route for me even without the cost issue and that is it only works if you want to live on mainland

[Blush Bravin]

2 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Which is true but assumes you can afford the mattress up front, if you can't your choice is sleep on the floor for x months while you save up or go the credit route

There is also one major flaw in the subs route for me even without the cost issue and that is it only works if you want to live on mainland

I"d sleep on the floor. Guess I'm that cheap or hate to waste money. I loathe putting money in someone's pocket as interest.

It's true if you can't find a lovely piece of mainland that you would enjoy living on then it makes no sense to go premium. Which is my whole point of why Mainland needs a revamp.

[KanryDrago]

Just now, Blush Bravin said:

I"d sleep on the floor. Guess I'm that cheap or hate to waste money. I loathe putting money in someone's pocket as interest.

It's true if you can't find a lovely piece of mainland that you would enjoy living on then it makes no sense to go premium. Which is my whole point of why Mainland needs a revamp.

Its got nothing at all to do with how pretty mainland is and prettying it up wouldn't change me mind in the least. If they ever do so I suspect it will have no actual net effect on the number of dwellers there as while some will move from estates to mainland, some will find they dont like these new neighbours and abandon mainland

[Phil Deakins]

To whom it may concern...

For those who can afford the $72 annual premium subscription in one go, a premium account costs about $1 per month

For those who can't afford the $72 annual premium subscription in one go, a premium account costs $n? a month, or $nn per 3 months.

That's all there is to it really.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

if you can't find a lovely piece of mainland that you would enjoy living on then it makes no sense to go premium.

Search hard enough, with good search skills and patience, and you’ll find something worthwhile.

[KanryDrago]

1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said:

To whom it may concern...

For those who can afford the $72 annual premium subscription in one go, a premium account costs about $1 per month

For those who can't afford the $72 annual premium subscription in one go, a premium account costs $n? a month, or $nn per 3 months.

That's all there is to it really.

Wrong as usual Phil a 72$ annual premium costs some of us far more than 72$

[Phil Deakins]

Including me, Kanry. But the principle is the same

You can't afford the $72 + taxes in one go so, for you, mainland costs what I said it does + taxes.

Other people can afford it.

There's no need to argue the toss about it.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Phil Deakins

[Penny Patton]

34 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

When I buy lindens there are no taxes added when I buy any game sub there is

That is a thing I did not know. Why didn't you lead with this?

Ok, so without knowing exactly how much in taxes are added to your Premium subscription I do not know how much the math is affected. If the amount in tax is greater than the savings, then of course estate land would be cheaper. If the tax is less than the savings, then it is still possible to get mainland for cheaper, just not as much so as without the tax.

So, do the taxes exceed more than $8/mo when applied to a yearly subscription?

 

[Love Zhaoying]

44 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

There's no need to argue the toss about it.

Is this what the English insult “tosser” refers to?

[Ethan Paslong]

53 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Wrong as usual Phil a 72$ annual premium costs some of us far more than 72$

https://secondlife.com/corporate/pricing.php

premium isn't subject to VAT, so yearly is 72 for everybody.

[KanryDrago]

1 minute ago, Ethan Paslong said:

https://secondlife.com/corporate/pricing.php

premium isn't subject to VAT, so yearly is 72 for everybody.

Country	VAT Rate
Austria	20.00 %
Belgium	21.00 %
Bulgaria	20.00 %
Cyprus	19.00 %
Czech Republic	21.00 %
Denmark	25.00 %
Estonia	20.00 %
Finland	24.00 %
France	20.00 %
Germany	19.00 %
Greece	24.00 %
Hungary	27.00 %
Ireland	23.00 %
Italy	22.00 %
Latvia	21.00 %
Lithuania	21.00 %
Luxembourg	17.00 %
Malta	18.00 %
Netherlands	21.00 %
Poland	23.00 %
Portugal	23.00 %
Romania	19.00 %
Slovakia	20.00 %
Slovenia	22.00 %
Spain	21.00 %
Sweden	25.00 %
United Kingdom	20.00 %

In accordance with the sales tax regulations of European Union countries in which some of our Residents live, we must collect and remit Value Added Tax (VAT). Currently, only Residents who live in the European Union are charged VAT. The EU allows people and companies to register for VAT exemption, which we abide by.For more details, please refer to the VAT policy page on the Second Life website. Rates above are current as of August 24, 2009

its on the subs page

[Love Zhaoying]

Isn’t it also more than $72 in some countries based on the Exchange Rate?

[Penny Patton]

If Premium subscription is subject to VAT, and I believe it is, then according to these percentages, even in the countries with the lowest VAT added in, that's an additional $13 per account per year. Or, between about $1 up to $4.50 more per month. Again, Kanry, you should have lead with this, it's a really good point! Still, while that certainly reduces the savings I'm talking about, it doesn't eliminate them entirely. You're still saving between about $7 to $3.50 a month, which works out to $84 to $54 a year.

Love brings up a good point about the exchange rate, which could potentially further reduce the savings (or increase them, if your exchange rate is in your favour). These are all important details to keep in mind. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Penny Patton
typo

[KanryDrago]

12 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

If Premium subscription is subject to VAT, and I believe it is, then according to these percentages, even in the countries with the lowest VAT added in, that's an additional $13 per account per year. Or, between about $1 up to $4.50 more per month. Again, Kanry, you should have lead with this, it's a really good point! Still, while that certainly reduces the savings I'm talking about, it doesn't eliminate them entirely. You're still saving between about $7 to $3.50 a month, which works out to $84 to $54 a year.

Love brings up a good point about the exchange rate, which could potentially further reduce the savings (or increase them, if your exchange rate is in your favour). These are all important details to keep in mind. 

Also your bank charges a conversion fee to dollars but it does that with linden buying too

[Blush Bravin]

1 hour ago, Penny Patton said:

That is a thing I did not know. Why didn't you lead with this?

Ok, so without knowing exactly how much in taxes are added to your Premium subscription I do not know how much the math is affected. If the amount in tax is greater than the savings, then of course estate land would be cheaper. If the tax is less than the savings, then it is still possible to get mainland for cheaper, just not as much so as without the tax.

So, do the taxes exceed more than $8/mo when applied to a yearly subscription?

 

I think he's mistaken. Looking at the table showing fees .. it indicates that fees/taxes are charged on Lindex transactions, tier, and private estate purchases. There is no indication that any taxes are charged for subscriptions.

 

[Penny Patton]

3 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I think he's mistaken. Looking at the table showing fees .. it indicates that fees/taxes are charged on Lindex transactions, tier, and private estate purchases. There is no indication that any taxes are charged for subscriptions.

I wonder if anyone who has to deal with VAT could chime in on this?

[Blush Bravin]

Apparently subscriptions used to be subject to VAT but no longer.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Blush Bravin

[KanryDrago]

16 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Apparently subscriptions used to be subject to VAT but no longer.

under eu laws any digital service supplied has to be subject to tax, I paid vat on my wow sub when I had one, I pay vat on my Eve online sub. The labs are either paying the vat for you or they are breaking Eu law and will be prosecuted for it or they have since changed back to charging it

[KanryDrago]

3 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

under eu laws any digital service supplied has to be subject to tax, I paid vat on my wow sub when I had one, I pay vat on my Eve online sub. The labs are either paying the vat for you or they are breaking Eu law and will be prosecuted for it or they have since changed back to charging it

found this on the offical wiki

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Value_Added_Tax_(VAT)_Frequently_Asked_Questions#Who_is_charged_VAT.3F

 

[Blush Bravin]

4 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

found this on the offical wiki

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Value_Added_Tax_(VAT)_Frequently_Asked_Questions#Who_is_charged_VAT.3F

 

Look at the date on the very botton of that page. 

• This page was last modified on 29 November 2012, at 09:17.

The one I posted was August 2015 .. so it's more current. I don't know how they can do it .. but apparently they are. Maybe when the Lindens get back from the holiday weekend they can post an answer as to which is correct.

 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Blush Bravin

[KanryDrago]

Just now, Blush Bravin said:

Look at the date on the very botton of that page. 

• This page was last modified on 29 November 2012, at 09:17.

 

Regardless of anything if someone from the eu is subbing the eu will be getting their cut, my suspicion as vat is now mentioned on the subs page is that they were told they didnt have a choice not to charge Vat and its quietly been changed back for eu residents. Perhaps an eu resident with a premium account can confirm

[Ana Stubbs]

Quote

Here is a list of your transactions from the last 30 days:
March 5, 2018   Recurring Mainland Fees (up to 2048 meters): $15
March 5, 2018   Adding 20.0000% VAT (United Kingdom) for "Recurring Mainland Fees" charge of $15
March 5, 2018   Premium membership (Annual): $72.00
March 5, 2018   Account Billed: $90.00

 

No, VAT is not charged on Premium subs. I assume LL think it's worthwhile just taking the hit, and paying it themselves.

[KanryDrago]

45 minutes ago, Ana Stubbs said:

 

No, VAT is not charged on Premium subs. I assume LL think it's worthwhile just taking the hit, and paying it themselves.

Thanks for confirming the correct answer, it seems I was wrong about the sub being vat on top it seems the labs must be swallowing it

[Klytyna]

On 01 September 2018 at 7:41 PM, PhantomPixel said:

Also, I wouldn't say it failed more than 10 years ago. When I first started SL in 2007 mainland was very popular and highly sort after.

Yes in deed, the middle of the Moronic Millions SL Gold Rush, when according to that well known SL-Population graph, massive numbers of people poured into SL, dreaming of getting RL-Rich by playing a "video game" with NO requirement for skill, talent, brains, ideas, investment capital or any kind of plan...

And then there were the Parcel Wars... That happy era when people would try to drive their neighbours off their land, by enclosing it with mega prim adboards, slot machine palaces, eyesores etc., so that they could use the "surround an abandoned plot on 3 sides" thing to claim the land from LL.

On 01 September 2018 at 7:41 PM, PhantomPixel said:

There were land agents and companies dedicated to selling and renting out parcels on mainland who made a significant amount of money from doing this

The SL-Gold rush basically came to an end late 2008 - early 2009, when average land prices dropped below L$ 8 / sqm, check the graphs over at gridsurvey...

Then most of the RL-Millionaire-Wannabes left...

On 01 September 2018 at 7:41 PM, PhantomPixel said:

and there were always new people daily looking to rent or purchase mainland property.

Large numbers of freshly minted noobs, with their bundle of lindens clutched in their sweaty little hands, being told that this "beautiful and highly desirable 512 can be yours for only L$ 12 / sqm...", only to discover that the land they had aquired from Madlander Max, was already in negative equity the moment they handed their money over, and they were NOT going to get rich reselling their "investment".

On 01 September 2018 at 7:41 PM, PhantomPixel said:

It was only later as the flippers took over and prices started to hike and the population of SL started to drop

Actually the population suffered a massive drop off, AFTER prices started to fall, not "hike", and the "hike" of inflated "bubble economics" prices, is part of the reason the Madlands failed.

On 01 September 2018 at 7:41 PM, PhantomPixel said:

after the bubble burst, that mainland shifted more towards what we know now

Yup, when the bubble burst, most ofthe get rich quick brigade left SL, large parts of the Madlands were abandoned, and welcome to the Wasteland, Madlander Max...

On 01 September 2018 at 7:41 PM, PhantomPixel said:

And yet we have Linden Homes....and people use them....

The LL Entitlement Club Prim Hovel Ghettos are NOT "communities", just collections of "cheek by jowl" cheap low quality housing, where many people do everything they can to keep the neighbours out, both physically (orbs or group access only etc.) and by privacy settings for audio and visibility.

On 01 September 2018 at 7:41 PM, PhantomPixel said:

I dont think it was trying to force communities or manufacture them to order that made mainland fail. It was a variety of different things from but not limited to premium costs, flippers and their high resell prices, limitation of 40 avatars at a time, lack of customisation when compared to a private regions such as ground textures, terraforming, region controls, having your view obscured by gigantic prim walls etc etc.

Basically, no...

The whole "view blocked by prim walls" is part of the Madlands special charm, or so people keep telling me, "No Rulz" and all that total anarchic freedom to urinate on the neighbours as you see fit, because in the Madlands, "neighbour" equals "enemy".

The land flipper price hikes, and the resultant negative equity for the buyer, were also part of the GREAT Madlands experience! Parcel cutting, selling "dohnut" parcels with a 4 sqm hole in the middle, all that.

Only 40 avatars per region? That's supposed to be a "problem" ? Get a grip, ever been on a sim with MORE than 40 Avi's on lt? Few people would complain about that., sims lagging so badly they won't let you teleport out because the server couldn't cope. Get real will you.

On 01 September 2018 at 7:41 PM, PhantomPixel said:

I mean, how do you want SL to be improved exactly? I don't ever really see you suggesting any real improvements in these forums, more just whining and bitching about how everyone else is wrong, putting people down and using cringey phrases like "madlands" and "entitlement club".

First of all, why do you ASSUME that building even MORE unwanted Madlands will be an "improvement" for SL?

Why do you ASSUME that slavishly repeating ALL the same mistakes, will "improve" SL?

...

MY suggestions?

If you bothered to look they are plainly visible.

1. End the link between Entitlement Club membership and "buying" Madlands parcels, For sale to ANYONE who is payment registered and can pay the tier. Makes the land available to a much wider group of potential customers

2. End "tier bands", and charge for parcels on a pro rata basis, based on the price for a full region, only pay on the amount of land you have. This ends "surplus tier donation" to Land Flipper companies, and helps make their business unprofitable.

3. End "Special Snowflake" status for all Madlands regions, fact is there is too much of it that is not used and will NEVER be used, you could by relocating the rare occupied area, arrange to demolish at least one and possible two of the more worthless continents right now. Reduces LL's operating costs, allowing the same profit for less fees...

There's some ideas for you...

As for ...

On 01 September 2018 at 7:41 PM, PhantomPixel said:

and using cringey phrases like "madlands" and "entitlement club".

You state that you started in 2007..

It was YOUR SL-Generation that by and large created the problem, YOUR generation that made the mainland into the Madlands, and it's still mostly YOUR generation pushing their "entitlement" issues as a part of their "suggestions for improving SL".

Last year one of your fellow Entitlement Club Whiners, the self styled "Princess of the Continent of Jeoflop", demanded, in a thread on these forums, and was backed by other Entitlement Club members, that LL "do something to FIX" Jeoflop.

Their demand was that LL should engage in a MASSIVE public works program, of road and rail building, and "sim beautification" of all the abandoned parcels, so as to make the Jeoflopian Entitlement Club member's plots more valuable on the resale market, and push up land prices.

They also stated that the costs to LL for all this work must under NO circumstances, be passed on in any way to the Jeoflopians, but instead should be financed by charging Estates dwelling shoppers a special "digital barbie" transaction tax, because people who "waste their money on digital barbie dress up" instead of "wisely investing" it in buying parcels on Jeoflop from Jeoflopian Entitlement Club members, were "ruining SL".

Another called for a scheme where EVERY business n SL would be required to have a Madlands HQ Store, regardless if they wanted one or not, because "the Madlands must be saved from becoming a wasteland", and also called for "special action to erradicate land flippers" despite claiming that their greatest "Madlands Feature" is having an entore region to them selves because the rest is owned by a flipper and empty, and they hate the idea of living "cheek by jowl" with other people. They want the Madl;ands "saved" by enforced re-population, except for THEIR bit...
 

THIS year, another Entitlement Club member has repeatedly called for "fixes" to the Madlands, including covering EVERY continent with clones of Kama City, and for plans to encourage people to move to Kama City. Because, EVERYONE *should* want to live in an immersive urban RP setting unofficially run by the local Chapter of the "Sons of Stupidity Outlaw MC", right?

...

I call it Madlands for damned good reasons.

I call the Entitlement Club that for damned good reasons.

Deal with it.

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Klytyna

[Garnet Psaltery]

I am in the UK and just checked my bank account.  I pay VAT on transactions, monthly mainland tier, and region fees but not the subscription.