Health Care In US & UK,Differences Between Left-Right Views On It & Taxes,Capitalism VS Socialism,Abuse Of Power

[Luna Bliss]

Just now, Gadget Portal said:

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

No, not while they're watching TV or not trying in some sort of job.

But that's what would happen. That's what happens already.

If we can solve that problem, then maybe you can talk to me about redistributing money from people that work hard and earn it.

But why would you want to punish the majority of people who deserve help because there's a few scammers?

[Phorumities]

12 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It should be.

oh yes you'll love Atlas Shrugged except you'll be cheering for the government.

at one point after John Galt was taken into custody they begged him to fix the mess they themselves had made.

His reply?

"Get out of my way"

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

But why would you want to punish the majority of people who deserve help because there's a few scammers?

Because he's fallen for the lie that we're all economically equal, based on that assumption, it's easy to point to relative inequality. The truth is were all down in the dirt fighting over pebbles distracted from huge sink holes that pull the fruit of our work away from us.

[Paul Hexem]

4 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

This is because you're on the bottom looking up. If you were on the top, in real terms you would be paying almost no tax.

It doesn't change the root cause of the problem, though. No matter who's paying it, somebody will have to. That money has to come from somewhere.

 

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

There are undeserving welfare recipients scamming society for sure, and we should monitor for this.

But like I said, I think they're in the minority.

You know, you're one car wreck away from destitution, especially if you're young and haven't had a chance to pay into the system for years. Their disability check is 800 a month or so.

Which is why I pay for insurance and keep some savings aside, because I don't know how to game the system so I know I wouldn't be collecting like these lazy scammers if something happens to me.

 

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

But why would you want to punish the majority of people who deserve help because there's a few scammers?

That's how many of our laws already work. The majority get punished because the minority are bad.

[Tari Landar]

At one time, when I was very young, my mother my sister and I lived in our car for a while. I don't think I need to go into detail about how horrific that can be for a child, or a parent, or what it can do to one's outlook on society, on assistance, on taxes, on the human ability to pull up one's boot straps and do what's necessary (positive, or negative as these things may be at times). 

Even after doing that, I *still* would not want anyone else to have to fund my existence in life. I would still want to do all that I can for myself, for my family, to ensure that others are not responsible for me, my life, my health and my well-being. Even after having to rely, on some levels, on the taxes others pay, it still bothers me that I have had to-hence why I still do all I can to ensure that I am not taking from others for mine. I'm grateful, beyond belief, that those taxes, those funds that others are paying, have helped me and my family when we desperately needed it, I never look a gift horse in the mouth.  That's a huge part of the problem I think with why some folks don't want their taxes going to other people....because quite often, those other people, aren't grateful, don't intend to make any effort to return that which was temporarily lent to them for assistance...and it is THOSE people that speak the loudest. They may be fewer in number than some people realize(the ungrateful, the unwilling to do for themselves, etc.) but they speak louder than the other side..the grateful, the willing, the able-but-not-quite-able-enough. 

I don't think individuals need to be taxed as much as they are. And, in fact, I don't think they'd need to be IF we taxed corporations in the same manner that we tax individuals, but we don't. 

I don't want to take money away from someone else to feed my family, regardless of how much money that individual has, or makes. I don't think that's fair, I don't think that's reasonable, and it doesn't matter how much I don't have, but they do have...neither plays a role here. But I do want corporations, organizations, etc...to be taxed fairly, and balanced. I think that act alone, could actually make a huge dent in a lot of the problems we have as a country with unemployment, homelessness, poverty, hunger, etc...

[Luna Bliss]

17 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

31 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I don't know if Coffee's stats are accurate...when I researched there were more than 3 hoarding 50% of the wealth.

But you bring up a good point....if someone accumulates such wealth how did they do it?  You seem to apply merit, but it's really more luck than anything. Hard work, sure, but no more hard work than flipping burgers in a busy restaurant. Intelligence? Probably. But why should a low-IQ person suffer who could not manage what a high-IQ person could?

They shouldn't *have to, but they often do. Our disadvantages in life will hinder us, no matter how they come to be, or what they are.

Why should I suffer because I can't do what someone with better vision than I can do? The answer is as simple and complex as...I shouldn't *have* to, but by the very nature of a disadvantage, I'm going to.  Is there a solution by which my disadvantage doesn't negatively affect what I can do, what I can earn, what I can achieve? Nope. 

The same applies to a lot of things, including how much money, stuff, accomplishments whatever, we, as humans, can have/do/achieve. Our disadvantages, quite often, cannot be blamed on others, or on what they have, what they have done, etc...Would it be reasonable for me to suggest that because I have certain disadvantages, whatever they may be (financial, physical, etc.) that I should be afforded more than those who don't have them, simply because I do have them? I'm not sure that's reasonable. Would it be nice? Maybe it would, situationaly dependent of course. Would it be an effective way of balancing out things? Probably not. Would others have a problem with it? Absolutely.

I know, there's really no solution.

I would just like the world to see that so much of what we have in life is because gifts were given to us. When we are able to acquire much or achieve a lot and so fare better in life it's not because we're special and deserve more than everybody else, and to hell with the starving children you know?

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Gadget Portal said:

8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

There are undeserving welfare recipients scamming society for sure, and we should monitor for this.

But like I said, I think they're in the minority.

You know, you're one car wreck away from destitution, especially if you're young and haven't had a chance to pay into the system for years. Their disability check is 800 a month or so.

Which is why I pay for insurance and keep some savings aside, because I don't know how to game the system so I know I wouldn't be collecting like these lazy scammers if something happens to me.

What if you were born into a family that could not support you emotionally?  Let's take, for example, children of alcoholics -- the statistics show the majority of these people go on to lead wrecked, miserable lives. Is that because they are just 'bad' and 'lazy' ?

What if your IQ was low and all u could work were grunt jobs...how could you have put that money away to save you financially after that disabling car wreck?

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Gadget Portal said:

It doesn't change the root cause of the problem, though. No matter who's paying it, somebody will have to. That money has to come from somewhere.

Right now the bulk of that money comes from us and is never seen again. There is actually more than enough wealth.

There should be a cap on individual wealth .. don't worry, it can be set so far above your earnings that it will never affect you, and should by fortuitous circumstance every get to that point, you will have more money that you have practical use for. Every penny scraped off the top gets funneled into the bottom and lifts every one up.

Sure some people will be happy to just float along at the bottom with no desire or interest in climbing higher, that doesn't make those people worthless. In fact .. many of those people are the very same we all depend on the most in other ways.

[Luna Bliss]

7 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

Even after doing that, I *still* would not want anyone else to have to fund my existence in life. I would still want to do all that I can for myself, for my family, to ensure that others are not responsible for me, my life, my health and my well-being. Even after having to rely, on some levels, on the taxes others pay, it still bothers me that I have had to-hence why I still do all I can to ensure that I am not taking from others for mine. I'm grateful, beyond belief, that those taxes, those funds that others are paying, have helped me and my family when we desperately needed it, I never look a gift horse in the mouth.  That's a huge part of the problem I think with why some folks don't want their taxes going to other people....because quite often, those other people, aren't grateful, don't intend to make any effort to return that which was temporarily lent to them for assistance...and it is THOSE people that speak the loudest. They may be fewer in number than some people realize(the ungrateful, the unwilling to do for themselves, etc.) but they speak louder than the other side..the grateful, the willing, the able-but-not-quite-able-enough. 

I would not want a handout either, and take pride in having goals, developing capabilities. And I have found that most people would like to have the self-respect that comes from work and having a purpose.  If they don't, I'd say by definition they are mentally ill.  Some are not...they're just scammers. But what I don't get is why people are so upset that there are a few of these scammers...why is there a perception (especially among the 'right' ) that they constitute the majority? And even the 'left' freak out about it...

I guess they have not seen what I've seen in Social Work, and instead base their opinion on some slacker they know in person or some inflammatory TV show.

[Paul Hexem]

10 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Because he's fallen for the lie that we're all economically equal, based on that assumption, it's easy to point to relative inequality. The truth is were all down in the dirt fighting over pebbles distracted from huge sink holes that pull the fruit of our work away from us.

See what a discussion about politics does? It makes people think "If so and so doesn't agree with me 100%, then they clearly think 'X' and that makes them the villain!"

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

What if you were born into a family that could not support you emotionally?  Let's take, for example, children of alcoholics -- the statistics show the majority of these people go on to lead wrecked, miserable lives. Is that because they are just 'bad' and 'lazy' ?

What if your IQ was low and all u could work were grunt jobs...how could you have put that money away to save you financially after that disabling car wreck?

I've done grunt jobs. I've put in 50 hours a week, every week, while buying the books I needed to get the certifications to get the job I wanted. Everyone should have THAT opportunity, not free handouts.

1 minute ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Right now the bulk of that money comes from us and is never seen again. There is actually more than enough wealth.

There should be a cap on individual wealth .. don't worry, it can be set so far above your earnings that it will never affect you, and should by fortuitous circumstance every get to that point, you will have more money that you have practical use for. Every penny scraped off the top gets funneled into the bottom and lifts every one up.

Sure some people will be happy to just float along at the bottom with no desire or interest in climbing higher, that doesn't make those people worthless. In fact .. many of those people are the very same we all depend on the most in other ways.

Let me tell you a story. When I was in high school, when I was old enough to drive, I got a job. So did a lot of my friends. Some got loans, some didn't, but generally we paid for our own cars. We were careful with them, and if we damaged them, you'd see us outside on the weekends repairing the damage.

A classmate of ours, she didn't. Her dad gave her a car, and paid for the insurance, paid for the gas. Free ride, literally. She crashed it. So he gave her another one. She crashed that, too. In one year, she'd gone through 3 cars, and was driving a fourth.

Free handouts aren't the answer.

[Coffee Pancake]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I guess they have not seen what I've seen in Social Work, and instead base their opinion on some slacker they know in person or some inflammatory TV show.

Funny how all the "slackers" people complain about are at the bottom of the economic food chain.... No one gets upset about some kid living off a trust fund burning money on cars and crack.

1 minute ago, Gadget Portal said:

A classmate of ours, she didn't. Her dad gave her a car, and paid for the insurance, paid for the gas. Free ride, literally. She crashed it. So he gave her another one. She crashed that, too. In one year, she'd gone through 3 cars, and was driving a fourth.

Social policy and attitudes towards it are probably not best served by the example of a high school friend who wasn't a good driver. Some people are just better at things than others. 

I have all the free pencils I could ever want. I will never move the world with my hand drawn artistry. Would paying for the pencils help improve my skill ... I doubt it (and not for lack of trying).

My son on the other hand has never bought a pencil in his life. His skill is so far beyond mine it leaves me staggered.

[Luna Bliss]

5 minutes ago, Gadget Portal said:

15 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

What if you were born into a family that could not support you emotionally?  Let's take, for example, children of alcoholics -- the statistics show the majority of these people go on to lead wrecked, miserable lives. Is that because they are just 'bad' and 'lazy' ?

What if your IQ was low and all u could work were grunt jobs...how could you have put that money away to save you financially after that disabling car wreck?

I've done grunt jobs. I've put in 50 hours a week, every week, while buying the books I needed to get the certifications to get the job I wanted. Everyone should have THAT opportunity, not free handouts.

My point is that not everyone is as intelligent as you, or as capable...this would affect their ability to get those certifications needed for a better job.

Or maybe they grew up in a horrible family and so never learned to cope with stress as easily as you can.

I don't think you are recognizing the gifts that you have that they did not get. I'm sure you have worked very hard in your life.

I'm not saying others who did not receive these gifts should get total handouts, but we should take these factors into consideration (not sure how), and most importantly not label them as 'bad' as you are doing.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

14 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I guess they have not seen what I've seen in Social Work, and instead base their opinion on some slacker they know in person or some inflammatory TV show.

Funny how all the "slackers" people complain about are at the bottom of the economic food chain.... No one gets upset about some kid living off a trust fund burning money on cars and crack.

It's sickening yes...they scapegoat the down and out, the most powerless.

[Dillon Levenque]

Yikes. I saw this thread title on Wednesday and studiously ignored it. I sensed either a brief parody of political threads (given the title's grandiosity) or something worse: an actual thread about those issues. Thus I ignored the bold type each day telling me there was something I hadn't read. I already knew that—I hadn't read any of it.

Regrettably, as I logged in this morning I saw that GD's newest post was from Maddie, and it was for this thread! So now I had to at least take a look at the thread (Snugs likes me to keep an eye on things in case Maddie goes completely off the rails).

I am fully and completely on the side of those who felt this thread had no business being here. There are lots of forums out there for talking politics. There is even one that has to do with SL, but has a well-populated sub-section on politics et al (and boy, do they get into it over there!).

This forum is different. Not as much passionate discourse. Probably not as serious or important, but I like that. It's a fun place to be and mostly we just kind of tease each other when differences occur. We don't get all riled up. Of course one reason for that is the fact that LL sees to it, but fact is it is mostly fun around here.

I spend plenty of time elsewhere, including that SL-related forum I mentioned: I enjoy that one as well, but it's a different vibe. It's got a whole lot of edge.

Having kind of skimmed through it all, I see it is the worst of the two ideas I'd had of it. It's for real. Even so, there were some things I liked here. Ellestones had some quotes from Thomas Jefferson that were new to me. It does not surprise me in the slightest to learn that Jefferson (and the other founders) spent a lot of time thinking about how they could make the country an improvement over the system(s) they'd been born into.

I got a laugh, too. The spheroidal one actually referred to us ('us' being everyone  but him, presumably) as the Hive Mind! I chortled. Talk about hackneyed phrases...

Anyway, I got through it. Maddie was surprisingly restrained and thoughtful, which happens from time to time. Fortunately she keeps that to a minimum. I won't be back here. As I said I can talk politics elsewhere. I don't mind sharing a few laughs at the expense of our laughable excuse for a president (or even for a rational human being) now and then and I admit that's political.

[Luna Bliss]

I think the Elite running off with most of the money wants to keep you angry at all the 'undeserving' classes, Gadget.

You're a nice tool to keep tax rates lower for them. That's probably even why they keep a few high earners around, to prop them up in such ways, and dangle the carrot too.

[Luna Bliss]

7 minutes ago, Dillon Levenque said:

Yikes. I saw this thread title on Wednesday and studiously ignored it. I sensed either a brief parody of political threads (given the title's grandiosity) or something worse: an actual thread about those issues. Thus I ignored the bold type each day telling me there was something I hadn't read. I already knew that—I hadn't read any of it.

lol well, they closed this other thread relating to some of this due to it not being on topic......so I threw everything I could that might possibly relate to the topic in the title......I laughed though as I thought of adding 'Dr. Suess' at the end.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

This is a great thread. I've learned so much and explored reality @ a deeper level. Even have a little more appreciation of Libertarians.  People have not been too mean to each other too even though discussing serious stuff.

My garden awaits though...

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Tari Landar said:

That's a huge part of the problem I think with why some folks don't want their taxes going to other people....because quite often, those other people, aren't grateful, don't intend to make any effort to return that which was temporarily lent to them for assistance...and it is THOSE people that speak the loudest. They may be fewer in number than some people realize(the ungrateful, the unwilling to do for themselves, etc.) but they speak louder than the other side..the grateful, the willing, the able-but-not-quite-able-enough.

They are fewer in number than some people realize, and this isn't surprising. Most of us build our world view from commercial news. Though I won't say the news is fake, it unavoidably tells us stories we want to hear, so we'll watch/hear/read the commercials. If we want sensationalism, we'll get it. If we want exaggeration, we'll get it. If we want lies, we'll get them.

Most every time I think I've spotted a link between a "kind" of person and their behavior, I get proven wrong by the statistics. I once thought politicians were more prone to extramarital affairs than regular folk, perhaps because they're willing to take greater risks. Analysis says that ain't so.We just think that because people who rise into public view get... viewed by the public.

I've heard lots of stories about poor people expecting handouts from the government, perhaps because their parents got handouts from the government. Well, Donald Trump got $885 million in tax breaks, advertises his golf courses while working his day job as President, and has passed that behavior on to his children, who advertise their products while working in a public capacity.

So, I'm now inclined to draw the conclusion that being raised to expect handouts is the problem, not your level of income. If that's true, one need only look at wealth distribution to figure out what impact that kind of "gimme" expectation has on the total economy. Since a small fraction of the US population has a majority of the wealth, and might have expectations that scale with that wealth, could I reason that it's the rich who are draining the nation's resources?

I toss ideas like this around in my head all day long. There are so many ways to look at a thing. Until it starts to look the same from every direction, I'm not sure I'm really seeing it.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters

[Tari Landar]

2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

So, I'm now inclined to draw the conclusion that being raised to expect handouts is the problem, not your level of income. If that's true (I'm not saying it is), one need only look at wealth distribution to figure out what impact that kind of "gimme" expectation has on the total economy. Since a small fraction of the US population has a majority of the wealth, and might have expectations that scale with that wealth, could I reason that it's the rich who are draining the nation's resources?

I toss ideas like this around in my head all day long.

I didn't really consider the rich, those handed things to them all their lives-or even a portion of it, when I made the comment, but...it rings true too. Those born into assistance, expecting that it will always be there-perhaps desiring that it will always be there is just as much of a problem as those born into wealth, expecting that the wealth will always be there, desiring that wealth to always be there....with or without hard work to achieve that (though the latter is likely more detrimental than the former, of course).

It's a problem no doubt, but I certainly don't have any solution as to how we can fix it. 

I have no idea how to possibly express, without writing a novel, how much I wish we could help everyone, how much I wish we could level the playing field for everyone, how much I wish there was more-basic needs, for everyone. The truth is...that's not going to to happen, it is a total pipe dream. And it is those that expect such things, expect such a level playing field, expect that certain things will be available for and to them whenever they so wish, that are causing me to question most solutions people come up with-on both sides of the coin,"with" and "without". 

I know plenty of people born into poverty, some rise above, some do not. Most of them still work pretty dang hard, and can't make ends meet-as is the case with the majority of people in this country today. I know plenty of people born into "more"(not always necessarily what some define as wealth, but for someone without, it very well may be defined as wealth, perspectives and all that jazz). Some of those born into more work hard to maintain their more, some do not. 

I still, quite strongly, believe that equal taxation across the board..individuals, corporations, etc.. based on actual income, could solve a huge amount of our problems in this country. Individuals shouldn't be taxed *more than corporations-that's not even sound on paper, much less in practice. This is why some maintain such high levels of wealth with or without their own work (organizations and individuals alike), because they are not taxed as equally as everyone else.  I lose a large chunk of my own income to taxes too, much of which goes into things, and people, that I will never have any use for.  I could complain about it, I could raise a stink, I could stomp and throw a fit and decide it's not fair, but what I can't do, is fail to pay my taxes anyway-at least, not without consequence, lol.  Some people, some corporations, however, can...and that is wholely unfair on every level possible, in no way, shape, or form, is that reasonable, let alone a fixture in a sound financial plan for this country. It never has been, and it never will be.  It also happens to be an area on which our existing political parties, cannot see to agree..which leaves me quite confused and only solidifies my stance on "no political party is a good one". 

So maybe I do have a solution after all...equal taxation across the board, income based tax. You make more..you pay more, you make less, you pay less..that would even the playing field more, that would be fair, that would be reasonable. I suppose the biggest problem is getting everyone else on board. Those who have more, don't want to pay more, don't feel they should have to pay more, aren't actually willing to pay more, will do all that they can to ensure they don't have to pay more, will find people (in posiitons of power capable of making it so) that agree they shouldn't have to pay more..and they're the biggest hurdle in this scenario, aren't they? 

[Pamela Galli]

49 minutes ago, Dillon Levenque said:

am fully and completely on the side of those who felt this thread had no business being here. There are lots of forums out there for talking politics. There is even one that has to do with SL, but has a well-populated sub-section on politics et al (and boy, do they get into it over there!).

Agree, most of us here don’t want this place to be like that place. (In fact at least two of the main participants in this thread are not welcome over there.) 

i have not read much of this thread, looks boring. Suffice to say that there is no point in discussing reality with someone who apparently exists in a parallel universe.

[Madelaine McMasters]

Tari, I share your desire to help everyone, and your inability to find a solution. This is tough stuff, and anyone claiming to have a solution clearly doesn't understand the problem. At home, hearing "I can fix it!" is more alarming than a tornado siren, and both make me run outside.

[Madelaine McMasters]

3 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

i have not read much of this thread, looks boring. Suffice to say that there is no point in discussing reality with someone who apparently exists in a parallel universe.

Well, you only read the boring parts then, didn't you?

And if I (because it's always about meeeee) exist in a parallel universe, while it's true that we'll never meet, we'll also never drift further apart.

...waves.

;-).

[Tari Landar]

31 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Tari, I share your desire to help everyone, and your inability to find a solution. This is tough stuff, and anyone claiming to have a solution clearly doesn't understand the problem. At home, hearing "I can fix it!" is more alarming than a tornado siren, and both make me run outside.

Haha, in this house "I can fix it" usually has the same effect, and nearly always means "I can make something else because IT can't be fixed"..and that's why we have 6 VCRs all in pieces and only one working VCR  

[KanryDrago]

To me the solution is simple

premise no one should go without food, shelter, clothing or basic medical care. However the welfare system in the UK certainly goes far beyond that.

Personally I would give every citizen the right to eat 3 meals a day at a communal kitchen run by the state, the right to a council owned single room to stay in, 3 issues of basic clothing a year and keep the NHS but trim a lot of the non basic stuff from the free system. Items such as tattoo removal and breast enhancement for example should not be offered.

Want anything above those basics then get a job.

 

[Pamela Galli]

37 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

 

And if I (because it's always about meeeee) exist in a parallel universe, while it's true that we'll never meet, we'll also never drift further apart.

...waves.

;-).

No it’s not about you, but about those whose perception of reality is 90% the inverse of mine.

Tomorrow we will travel to visit old and beloved friends who are in that category, and I will feel zero desire to discuss issues or events of this sort with them. It would be like trying to discuss music with deaf people. Pointless. Boring.