Health Care In US & UK,Differences Between Left-Right Views On It & Taxes,Capitalism VS Socialism,Abuse Of Power

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Phorumities said:

actually if i had a million dollars and didnt invest it i wouldnt have to pay any income taxes at all

You would suffer the erosion of inflation (rather than the actual growth of market returns after taxes), pay property, sales and license taxes, and you'd indirectly pay taxes through all the goods and services you use, as those are provided by people who pay... taxes.

since people are recomending books i sincerly recommend Ayn Rands book on the evil of socialism Atlas Shrugged

I read Atlas Shrugged as a teen. I found it neither compelling nor well written.

She talks about love a lot in it too.

Talk is cheap.

 

[Phorumities]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Let's say you are earning that money with a well-paying job of $300,000 a year. Why would it be theft to pay taxes...with the goal of helping hungry children in the US and developing better programs for the homeless.

the best way to help hungry children is to make it possible for their parents to find well paying jobs not give then free handouts.

and despite the propaganda most homeless are that way by choice

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

9 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

When THREE people have the wealth of 50% of the population, something is very very wrong.

The current situation is no better than a medieval lord in his castle.

who are these 3 people and how by chance did they accumulate this wealth?

did they get it by theft or did they accumulate by offering something people needed and were willing to pay for?

I don't know if Coffee's stats are accurate...when I researched there were more than 3 hoarding 50% of the wealth.

But you bring up a good point....if someone accumulates such wealth how did they do it?  You seem to apply merit, but it's really more luck than anything. Hard work, sure, but no more hard work than flipping burgers in a busy restaurant. Intelligence? Probably. But why should a low-IQ person suffer who could not manage what a high-IQ person could?

[Phorumities]

every problem in this country can be traced back to a leftist democratic president

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Let's say you are earning that money with a well-paying job of $300,000 a year. Why would it be theft to pay taxes...with the goal of helping hungry children in the US and developing better programs for the homeless.

the best way to help hungry children is to make it possible for their parents to find well paying jobs not give then free handouts.

and despite the propaganda most homeless are that way by choice

Well at least you appear to have concern for those beyond yourself that suffer.

The fact is, there will never be enough jobs in capitalism without regulation -- by limiting jobs the competition is more fierce, and workers will accept less pay. Profit is the name of the game...and not the workers profit.

Regarding the homeless being that way by choice. Just no. Like I said, I have ties to current Social Workers and work experience in the field. Most of the homeless are mentally ill, disabled physically, vets traumatized by war suffering from PTSD, and the elderly. There are a FEW who want to remain on the street. For you to site those few and apply it to everyone is.....what I expect from you.

[Phorumities]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

I don't know if Coffee's stats are accurate...when I researched there were more than 3 hoarding 50% of the wealth.

But you bring up a good point....if someone accumulates such wealth how did they do it?  You seem to apply merit, but it's really more luck than anything. Hard work, sure, but no more hard work than flipping burgers in a busy restaurant. Intelligence? Probably. But why should a low-IQ person suffer who could not manage what a high-IQ person could?

so bill gates got lucky by forming microsoft?

or did he identify a need and work to fill that need. every penny he made he deserved.

of course now that hes old hes getting soft in the head, but wealth and senility does that to people, they start musing that socialism is perhaps the best way after all

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

every problem in this country can be traced back to a leftist democratic president

Can you give some examples of this?

[Phorumities]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well at least you appear to have concern for those beyond yourself that suffer.

The fact is, there will never be enough jobs in capitalism without regulation -- by limiting jobs the competition is more fierce, and workers will accept less pay. Profit is the name of the game...and not the workers profit.

Regarding the homeless being that way by choice. Just no. Like I said, I have ties to current Social Workers and work experience in the field. Most of the homeless are mentally ill, disabled physically, vets traumatized by war suffering from PTSD, and the elderly. There are a FEW who want to remain on the street. For you to site those few and apply it to everyone is.....what I expect from you.

so you are going to force companies to hire more people than they need in order to cut unemployment?

you probably think the primary purpose of a business is to serve society.

 

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Phorumities said:

9 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

But you bring up a good point....if someone accumulates such wealth how did they do it?  You seem to apply merit, but it's really more luck than anything. Hard work, sure, but no more hard work than flipping burgers in a busy restaurant. Intelligence? Probably. But why should a low-IQ person suffer who could not manage what a high-IQ person could?

so bill gates got lucky by forming microsoft?

or did he identify a need and work to fill that need. every penny he made he deserved.

of course now that hes old hes getting soft in the head, but wealth and senility does that to people, they start musing that socialism is perhaps the best way after all

Sure he identified a need...that's a great skill and people should be rewarded for skill and hard work. But he doesn't deserve THAT much compensation...not when 1 in 6 people in the US go hungry, and homeless freeze on the streets. He should share more via higher taxes.

"Millions of working Americans don’t know where their next meal is coming from. We sent three photographers to explore hunger in three very different parts of the United States, each giving different faces to the same statistic: One-sixth of Americans don’t have enough food to eat".

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/hunger/

[Paul Hexem]

18 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Are you saying forcing people to pay taxes is theft?  How would we help others less fortunate in such a complex society? What would your plan be if not taxes?

I know some millionaires contribute to less fortunate people, but I'd guess they're in the minority. And I'm afraid if we didn't force people to pay taxes a good majority wouldn't.

I'll agree with a need for taxes in a civilized society. It's part of being a society. The argument is over how much, and where it goes.

11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

So are you saying if we did pay higher taxes it would more likely go to something like the military, or something that benefitted the 1% as opposed to helping those less fortunate?

Or they'd go disproportionately towards certain classes and people that are too lazy to work, while other classes have to work overtime to cover it... Which is a lot of what we have now. Unless you're also suggesting forced labor camps to pick up the slack. As it stands, I lose more than a third of my pay every week in taxes, while I observe people perfectly capable of working collecting those handouts from the government- and worse, selling their "disability drugs" on the street, because they don't actually need it.

 

8 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

the best way to help hungry children is to make it possible for their parents to find well paying jobs not give then free handouts.

and despite the propaganda most homeless are that way by choice

This is unfortunately true far too often.

[Tari Landar]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I don't know if Coffee's stats are accurate...when I researched there were more than 3 hoarding 50% of the wealth.

But you bring up a good point....if someone accumulates such wealth how did they do it?  You seem to apply merit, but it's really more luck than anything. Hard work, sure, but no more hard work than flipping burgers in a busy restaurant. Intelligence? Probably. But why should a low-IQ person suffer who could not manage what a high-IQ person could?

They shouldn't *have to, but they often do. Our disadvantages in life will hinder us, no matter how they come to be, or what they are.

Why should I suffer because I can't do what someone with better vision than I can do? The answer is as simple and complex as...I shouldn't *have* to, but by the very nature of a disadvantage, I'm going to.  Is there a solution by which my disadvantage doesn't negatively affect what I can do, what I can earn, what I can achieve? Nope. 

The same applies to a lot of things, including how much money, stuff, accomplishments whatever, we, as humans, can have/do/achieve. Our disadvantages, quite often, cannot be blamed on others, or on what they have, what they have done, etc...Would it be reasonable for me to suggest that because I have certain disadvantages, whatever they may be (financial, physical, etc.) that I should be afforded more than those who don't have them, simply because I do have them? I'm not sure that's reasonable. Would it be nice? Maybe it would, situationaly dependent of course. Would it be an effective way of balancing out things? Probably not. Would others have a problem with it? Absolutely.

Though, this also delves into the realm of why I don't think organizations or corporations that make poor financial choices, struggle financially simply because of outside circumstances beyond their own choices, or even don't struggle at all ought to be afforded tax breaks. Why should they be given an advantage because of their disadvantages (or in the case of those not struggling even remotely, advantages) over others?  Is it fair? Nope. Does it happen? Yep. 

We're a very unbalanced country in so many ways, as is our government, and we're certainly not alone. Though I won't pretend I have any of the answers as to how we can fix that, nor will I pretend anyone else does, either. 

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

you probably think the primary purpose of a business is to serve society.

It should be.

[Paul Hexem]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

Sure he identified a need...that's a great skill and people should be rewarded for skill and hard work. But he doesn't deserve THAT much compensation...not when 1 in 6 people in the US go hungry, and homeless freeze on the streets. He should share more via higher taxes.

Or they should apply themselves and market something people want, like he did.

[Phorumities]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Can you give some examples of this?

everything Roosevelt did to try and end the depression , and Lyndon Johnsons great society welfare reforms.

roosevelt hated business and every time one of his programs failed he blamed in on greedy uncaring businessmen. 

Johnson managed to do what slavery and jim crow couldn't do.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Gadget Portal said:

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Sure he identified a need...that's a great skill and people should be rewarded for skill and hard work. But he doesn't deserve THAT much compensation...not when 1 in 6 people in the US go hungry, and homeless freeze on the streets. He should share more via higher taxes.

Or they should apply themselves and market something people want, like he did.

If they're capable of doing that they should try.

But it's very rare and a fluke to be as successful as he became, and relates more to luck than hard work.

[Phorumities]

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Sure he identified a need...that's a great skill and people should be rewarded for skill and hard work. But he doesn't deserve THAT much compensation...not when 1 in 6 people in the US go hungry, and homeless freeze on the streets. He should share more via higher taxes.

"Millions of working Americans don’t know where their next meal is coming from. We sent three photographers to explore hunger in three very different parts of the United States, each giving different faces to the same statistic: One-sixth of Americans don’t have enough food to eat".

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/hunger/

there you go YOU are going to decide how much someone else deserves to earn? What gives you the right to decide how much money anyone else should be able to earn?

if one in six dont have enough to eat its because government control and regulations stifle business from being able to expand and grow and provide more jobs.

lets place the blame for poverty where it belongs, at the feet of an out if control overbearing government who are in a never ending quest to grab more power at the expense of individual freedom

Edited July 20, 2018 by Phorumities
added stuff

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

If they're capable of doing that they should try.

But it's very rare and a fluke to be as successful as he became, and relates more to luck than hard work.

So you honestly think everyone that's not "lucky" (a hard worker like Bill Gates) should get a cut of the money he works for, while they what? Watch TV?

[Luna Bliss]

5 minutes ago, Gadget Portal said:

22 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

So are you saying if we did pay higher taxes it would more likely go to something like the military, or something that benefitted the 1% as opposed to helping those less fortunate?

Or they'd go disproportionately towards certain classes and people that are too lazy to work, while other classes have to work overtime to cover it... Which is a lot of what we have now. Unless you're also suggesting forced labor camps to pick up the slack. As it stands, I lose more than a third of my pay every week in taxes, while I observe people perfectly capable of working collecting those handouts from the government- and worse, selling their "disability drugs" on the street, because they don't actually need it.

Where are you observing people like this?  I know there are some, but from my personal experience most who can't work are incapable of it.

Maybe you want someone to scapegoat because losing 1/3 of your income is painful?  Or do you really believe most receiving help are just fleecing the govt?

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Phorumities said:

7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Sure he identified a need...that's a great skill and people should be rewarded for skill and hard work. But he doesn't deserve THAT much compensation...not when 1 in 6 people in the US go hungry, and homeless freeze on the streets. He should share more via higher taxes.

"Millions of working Americans don’t know where their next meal is coming from. We sent three photographers to explore hunger in three very different parts of the United States, each giving different faces to the same statistic: One-sixth of Americans don’t have enough food to eat".

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/hunger/

there you go YOU are going to decide how much someone else deserves to earn? What gives you the right to decide how much money anyone else should be able to earn?

I dunno Phorumities, I just see malnourished children living in squalor, and homeless vets in the street with frostbite on their beards.

[Paul Hexem]

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Where are you observing people like this?  I know there are some, but from my personal experience most who can't work are incapable of it.

Maybe you want someone to scapegoat because losing 1/3 of your income is painful?  Or do you really believe most receiving help are just fleecing the govt?

I can name five right off the top of my head- although one is in prison now (which is another form of riding on my tax dollar, but we won't get into that).

What I want is for there to be less handouts to the undeserving and as a result, less taxes taken out of my paycheck.

Edit: ALL of our paychecks.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Gadget Portal

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Gadget Portal said:

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

If they're capable of doing that they should try.

But it's very rare and a fluke to be as successful as he became, and relates more to luck than hard work.

So you honestly think everyone that's not "lucky" (a hard worker like Bill Gates) should get a cut of the money he works for, while they what? Watch TV?

No, not while they're watching TV or not trying in some sort of job.

Only that those who earn an obscene amount should pay higher taxes, as for the most part they did not get that money through merit. And, hoarding is just not good for society in general.

[Phorumities]

in a socialist state every facet of your lives will be controlled. we have seen it over and over.

dont like it? theres always another bed available in the re education camps.

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I don't know if Coffee's stats are accurate...when I researched there were more than 3 hoarding 50% of the wealth.

But you bring up a good point....if someone accumulates such wealth how did they do it?  You seem to apply merit, but it's really more luck than anything. Hard work, sure, but no more hard work than flipping burgers in a busy restaurant. Intelligence? Probably. But why should a low-IQ person suffer who could not manage what a high-IQ person could?

Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos and Warren Buffett combined own more than the lowest 50% of the US population combined. (and that Includes all our resident Trumpers).

Lets take the example of Gates. he started and ran a huge company. Sounds great ... good on him ... only the staggering output of that company and the immense profits it made during his tenure were the direct result of over 100,000 people. In most cases Gates will only have been marginally involved.

Bezos ... Amazon ... A company where the employees are afraid to take toilet breaks.

The number of people who start companies is staggering, the vast majority end up bankrupt in the first year (an even greater number fail to even secure initial funding). Fewer still survive three years. Are those people lesser in skill than Gates was at the very start of MS .. not necessarily so.

Just now, Gadget Portal said:

Or they should apply themselves and market something people want, like he did.

Good luck ! Most startups who obtain enough money to run the scale of marketing needed to launch a product with sensible economies of scale still fail to get traction. A lucky few like Twitter end up too influential to fail (those guys have never made a profit).

Does Tesla exist because Elon is genius or does it exists because he had access to a staggering amount of cash and needed a hobby. Some day they might make make a profit.

Just now, Gadget Portal said:

What I want is for there to be less handouts to the undeserving and as a result, less taxes taken out of my paycheck.

This is because you're on the bottom looking up. If you were on the top, in real terms you would be paying almost no tax.

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

No, not while they're watching TV or not trying in some sort of job.

But that's what would happen. That's what happens already.

If we can solve that problem, then maybe you can talk to me about redistributing money from people that work hard and earn it.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Gadget Portal said:

5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Where are you observing people like this?  I know there are some, but from my personal experience most who can't work are incapable of it.

Maybe you want someone to scapegoat because losing 1/3 of your income is painful?  Or do you really believe most receiving help are just fleecing the govt?

I can name five right off the top of my head- although one is in prison now (which is another form of riding on my tax dollar, but we won't get into that).

What I want is for there to be less handouts to the undeserving and as a result, less taxes taken out of my paycheck.

Edit: ALL of our paychecks.

There are undeserving welfare recipients scamming society for sure, and we should monitor for this.

But like I said, I think they're in the minority.

You know, you're one car wreck away from destitution, especially if you're young and haven't had a chance to pay into the system for years. Their disability check is 800 a month or so.