Health Care In US & UK,Differences Between Left-Right Views On It & Taxes,Capitalism VS Socialism,Abuse Of Power

[Phorumities]

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

But why would you want to punish the majority of people who deserve help because there's a few scammers?

so does generational welfare come under the category of deserving help or scammers?

[Coffee Pancake]

37 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

Haha, in this house "I can fix it" usually has the same effect, and nearly always means "I can make something else because IT can't be fixed"..and that's why we have 6 VCRs all in pieces and only one working VCR  

Just put them on the healing bench in bits for 6 months, works for me! 

(Habitually disassemble everything I can get my hands on)

[Phorumities]

5 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Because he's fallen for the lie that we're all economically equal, based on that assumption, it's easy to point to relative inequality. The truth is were all down in the dirt fighting over pebbles distracted from huge sink holes that pull the fruit of our work away from us.

the fruit of your work? your wage is the fruit of your work. you offered your labor at a mutually agreeable rate. the factory worker used you labor to produce something that he can sell for a profit. Are you suggesting that in addition to wages paid you deserve a share of the profit too.

what i find amusing is that i was attacked for calling the people in here leftists and now here they are crawling out of the woodwork.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Phorumities
spelling

[Madelaine McMasters]

47 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

No it’s not about you, but about those whose perception of reality is 90% the inverse of mine.

Tomorrow we will travel to visit old and beloved friends who are in that category, and I will feel zero desire to discuss issues or events of this sort with them. It would be like trying to discuss music with deaf people. Pointless. Boring. 

Noooooooo. Stop listening to System 1, Pamela! ;-).

My best childhood friend has a deaf daughter. I attended her wedding, which was a riot. They had a cover band cranking out tunes and she and her friends (many deaf) were dancing up a storm. She could feel the vibrations and was easily the best dancer I saw all night, clearly powered by happiness.

She's also an amazing lip reader. We tried chatting at the edge of the dance floor where she could read everything I said, but I had no idea what she was saying in response because the music was so loud. We moved to a quieter spot and got caught up on the decade since I'd last see her (law school, what a waste of a beautiful mind! ;-). One of her favorite pastimes is attending live concerts. I was fascinated by her description of what that's like for her and we connected over our fascination with the faces of musicians when they're playing. She can tell when a band is clicking, in the same way I do. Absence of sound doesn't seem to impair her ability to read a room.

As so often happens when I encounter someone with a disability, I came away from the encounter feeling like an underachiever.

Fortunately I am powered by irony, and so I persevere.

;-).

ETA: I do meet people I don't care to have discussions with, and that's not because they have a disability, it's because they have a disinterest. I adore curiosity.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters

[Coffee Pancake]

5 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

the fruit of your work? you wage is the fruit of your work. you offered your labor at a mutually agreeable rate.

Roflcopter. Wages aren't negotiated you big silly. You take what you're offered or you starve.

 

[KanryDrago]

2 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Roflcopter. Wages aren't negotiated you big silly. You take what you're offered or you starve.

 

not true, a business will however pay the minimum they can which comes down to how much competition there is for workers who can do the job and how much value the job being done gives the company. This is why as minimum wage levels rise you will see a reduction the low skilled jobs on offer as they simply are no longer of sufficient value to the company to be done. This for example is why supermarkets are moving to self checkouts. As it becomes cheaper to get a machine to do a job than a human the human will be replaced.

At some point you have to start asking is it worth raising minimum wage levels and putting people out of work or is it better for those people to be in some form of work. Further as machine learning gets ever better the machines will move from low skilled job replacement to more semi skilled and ever further up the job chain so most of us will find our jobs at risk of replacement at some point in our lives. 

This point can be illustrated starkly in the UK, even with unemployment at record low levels wages aren't rising as predicted because employers have what is virtually a limitless pool of labour to draw from via immigration and indeed many companies advertise abroad in those countries to get workers to come over

[Madelaine McMasters]

2 hours ago, Dillon Levenque said:

Anyway, I got through it. Maddie was surprisingly restrained and thoughtful, which happens from time to time. Fortunately she keeps that to a minimum.

I keep it to a minimum because it's hard work and I can only lose so much blood from my lower lip before I pass out.

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

No it’s not about you, but about those whose perception of reality is 90% the inverse of mine.

Tomorrow we will travel to visit old and beloved friends who are in that category, and I will feel zero desire to discuss issues or events of this sort with them. It would be like trying to discuss music with deaf people. Pointless. Boring. 

I sometimes have my most interesting conversations with people that have a totally different point of view than mine.  As long as we can actually discuss our views, rather than get defensive about them (which even I am guilty of sometimes), I tend to learn quite a bit from those that hold different beliefs/views/perceptions.  I won't say that I change my way of thinking and agree with theirs very often, but I do learn a lot.

My idea of pointless and boring conversation would be in always talking to people that thought the same way I do on everything.

Edited July 20, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell

[Pamela Galli]

18 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I won't say that I change my way of thinking and agree with theirs very often, but I do learn a lot.

I am not talking (just) about opinions but about facts. 

[Phorumities]

2 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Roflcopter. Wages aren't negotiated you big silly. You take what you're offered or you starve.

 

hi there i want to work for you.

How much are you paying?

omg are you kidding me? 

bye

[Phorumities]

2 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

not true, a business will however pay the minimum they can which comes down to how much competition there is for workers who can do the job and how much value the job being done gives the company. This is why as minimum wage levels rise you will see a reduction the low skilled jobs on offer as they simply are no longer of sufficient value to the company to be done. This for example is why supermarkets are moving to self checkouts. As it becomes cheaper to get a machine to do a job than a human the human will be replaced.

At some point you have to start asking is it worth raising minimum wage levels and putting people out of work or is it better for those people to be in some form of work. Further as machine learning gets ever better the machines will move from low skilled job replacement to more semi skilled and ever further up the job chain so most of us will find our jobs at risk of replacement at some point in our lives. 

This point can be illustrated starkly in the UK, even with unemployment at record low levels wages aren't rising as predicted because employers have what is virtually a limitless pool of labour to draw from via immigration and indeed many companies advertise abroad in those countries to get workers to come over

from what I've read in a few socialist screeds, in the end all  work will be automated, and the former workers will all live lives of leisure, engaging in their interests and hobbies as they share in the bounty of production.

The biggest problem with socialism is that it is nothing but a utopian dream, and when you try to bring such a dream into reality, it turns into a nightmare.

[Phorumities]

bottom line on income redistrubution:

Those that earned it don't deserve it, because those that didn't earn it deserve it more.

Or as the Obamination said to Joe the Plumber: you will have to make do with a bit less, so that the ones behind you can have a bit more.

[Phorumities]

Socialists: there's only one pie, we all need an equal share

Capitalists: lets bake more pies, so everyone can have more

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Pamela Galli said:

I am not talking (just) about opinions but about facts. 

In political discussions, both sides usually think they are stating facts.  That is part of what makes the conversations so interesting - what each person thinks of as facts.

[Pamela Galli]

3 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

In political discussions, both sides usually think they are stating facts.  That is part of what makes the conversations so interesting - what each person thinks of as facts.

Some do, I don’t find it interesting at all. 

[Ivanova Shostakovich]

1 hour ago, Phorumities said:

hi there i want to work for you.

How much are you paying?

omg are you kidding me? 

bye

   Hi there. I want to work for your company. What are you paying for someone of my experience and expertise?

   Ok. Not as much as I hoped.

   B pays more but their benefits aren't as good.

   A pays more but it's a two hour drive for me and the schools are better here.

   C also has a better wage but my friends tell me it's a toxic work environment.

   I have rent due and other bills. When can I interview?

[Phorumities]

10 minutes ago, Ivanova Shostakovich said:

   Hi there. I want to work for your company. What are you paying for someone of my experience and expertise?

   Ok. Not as much as I hoped.

   B pays more but their benefits aren't as good.

   A pays more but it's a two hour drive for me and the schools are better here.

   C also has a better wage but my friends tell me it's a toxic work environment.

   I have rent due and other bills. When can I interview?

The point is no one is forced to take any job, and in a booming economy there are more jobs than workers.

Now if we can just get rid of those millions of illegals.

[Coffee Pancake]

4 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

This point can be illustrated starkly in the UK, even with unemployment at record low levels wages aren't rising as predicted because employers have what is virtually a limitless pool of labour to draw from via immigration and indeed many companies advertise abroad in those countries to get workers to come over

 

34 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

Now if we can just get rid of those millions of illegals.

 

Sheesh. The pair of you.

Immigrants are not taking your jobs.

If you actually loose you job to a "foreigner" it's mostly likely because your job moved to their home country, because capitalism.

The only jobs that are routinely filled by illegal immigrants in your home countries are those with limited duration and/or shockingly low (perhaps even illegal) wages, because capitalism.

Legal immigration is time consuming, insanely expensive and difficult for all parties involved. When companies legally get workers from overseas, it's because even after all that it's still cheaper than paying you to do the same job, because capitalism.

You're not prepared to pay the price of goods and services that use native labor. This is why China make everything and immigrants pick your produce, because capitalism.

Take a moment to imagine the circumstances that would make upending your family and going to another country to earn less than minimum wage seems like a great idea.

[ellestones]

4 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

At some point you have to start asking is it worth raising minimum wage levels and putting people out of work or is it better for those people to be in some form of work.

this is social engineering. That idea that people be in some form of work regardless of the income on offer

minimum wage is a tax on business, this is social engineering also. Minimum wage shifts some of the burden from the State to business

as you further raise, businesses that require low wages to make a profit reach a point where on exhausting the supply of people willing to work for low wages, they turn to automation to do the work. This is not a bad thing, from neither a business nor a social viewpoint

[Phorumities]

21 minutes ago, ellestones said:

this is social engineering. That idea that people be in some form of work regardless of the income on offer

minimum wage is a tax on business, this is social engineering also. Minimum wage shifts some of the burden from the State to business

as you further raise, businesses that require low wages to make a profit reach a point where on exhausting the supply of people willing to work for low wages, they turn to automation to do the work. This is not a bad thing, from neither a business nor a social viewpoint

so it's a good thing that raising the minimum wage makes it harder for low or no skill workers to find work?

Minimum wage workers rarely stay at that level for very long. As their skill set improves, they are able to receive higher wages, but if  there are fewer minimum wage jobs because the minimum wage is too high, it just makes it harder for low/no skill workers to make that first step up the ladder

I guess maybe you think it's better to collect a handout than work for a minimum wage.

 

 

[KanryDrago]

1 hour ago, CoffeeDujour said:

 

 

Sheesh. The pair of you.

Immigrants are not taking your jobs.

If you actually loose you job to a "foreigner" it's mostly likely because your job moved to their home country, because capitalism.

The only jobs that are routinely filled by illegal immigrants in your home countries are those with limited duration and/or shockingly low (perhaps even illegal) wages, because capitalism.

Legal immigration is time consuming, insanely expensive and difficult for all parties involved. When companies legally get workers from overseas, it's because even after all that it's still cheaper than paying you to do the same job, because capitalism.

You're not prepared to pay the price of goods and services that use native labor. This is why China make everything and immigrants pick your produce, because capitalism.

Take a moment to imagine the circumstances that would make upending your family and going to another country to earn less than minimum wage seems like a great idea.

Where did I say immigrants are taking peoples jobs? What I said was that having a limitless labour pool keeps wages lower than they would be given a more limited labour pool. Wages have always risen in the past as unemployment fell. Now they arent rising anything like the same extent as they should with unemployment falling. 

Wages are supply and demand based. As demand increases and supply falls then prices rise. That has been broken however when you make supply unlimited.

As to being time consuming bollocks is it if you come from an eu country it is simply get a passport to travel and a plane ticket and you can come work as people have been doing

[Phorumities]

1 hour ago, CoffeeDujour said:

 

 

Sheesh. The pair of you.

Immigrants are not taking your jobs.

If you actually loose you job to a "foreigner" it's mostly likely because your job moved to their home country, because capitalism.

The only jobs that are routinely filled by illegal immigrants in your home countries are those with limited duration and/or shockingly low (perhaps even illegal) wages, because capitalism.

Legal immigration is time consuming, insanely expensive and difficult for all parties involved. When companies legally get workers from overseas, it's because even after all that it's still cheaper than paying you to do the same job, because capitalism.

You're not prepared to pay the price of goods and services that use native labor. This is why China make everything and immigrants pick your produce, because capitalism.

Take a moment to imagine the circumstances that would make upending your family and going to another country to earn less than minimum wage seems like a great idea.

its perfectly all right to use "of" you know

[ellestones]

2 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

so it's a good thing that raising the minimum wage makes it harder for low or no skill workers to find work?

when low and no skill workers can't find work commensurate with their low/no skills, then their practical option is to up-skill themselves

this is social engineering as well

[KanryDrago]

1 hour ago, CoffeeDujour said:

 

 

 

You're not prepared to pay the price of goods and services that use native labor. This is why China make everything and immigrants pick your produce, because capitalism.

 

Part of the problem is what the us and europe have isnt proper capitalism it is corporatism. Corporations have bought politicians and rigged the laws in their favour.

A corporation can shop around for the cheapest labour and make use of globalisation, however the consumer is restricted from doing so legally as instead of being able to buy your goods from the cheapest country they have kept the prices high by regional restrictions.

Here is a good example of this happening

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/1362985/Tesco-loses-fight-to-sell-Levis-at-American-prices.html

or if you prefer

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/nov/21/andrewosborn

so Levi's use the cheapest possible labour and reap the benefit but try using the same globalisation to make your life cheaper....

[ellestones]

39 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

A corporation can shop around for the cheapest labour and make use of globalisation, however the consumer is restricted from doing so legally as instead of being able to buy your goods from the cheapest country they have kept the prices high by regional restrictions.

this opens up the topic of free movement for discussion

looking at this from a right-of-center perspective

the EU has addressed the topic by allowing the free movement of capital, goods, services and labour between the EU countries

a question for the world is should free movement of all these be allowed globally. A libertarian would say yes just on principle

other not-quite-libertarians would and do sometimes say yes, except for foreigners who will come to where I am and make it harder for me to come out ahead when freely competing in the marketplace on any or all 4 of the above

a libertarian business owner would say yes not only on principle, but also because they view the new arrivals as customers

Edited July 21, 2018 by ellestones
the