Visit Sansar and See What's Up

[Prokofy Neva]

I must say that I've been assuming for more than a year that Sansar would draw people away from "legacy Second Life" and finish off the process at least of the dying Mainland. I actually don't think the Mainland is dying as much/as fast as some say, but that's a different topic.

Whether it's Sansar -- when it gets better -- or High Fidelity, or some other thing, it could draw people away from SL. That's the way of the virtual world. It happened to my beloved The Sims Online; it happened to There, beloved by other people. People go out in waves for a "look-see" then wash back when they see either their graphic card can't handle it or they get griefed. But inevitably, they go back. And eventually, I think that's what will happen with Sansar. Right now, it seems primitive and people don't see how it could compete. But I think at some inflection point, it will tip to being "better". Not because of "better graphics". Not because of "better looking content". But some other aspect we don't know yet -- perhaps simply if it helps people tell their stories better. That's all they really want on line.

Let me describe to you my Sansar experience as a person who is a "power virtual worlder" if you will, but who is not a creator, dev, scriptor, artist or anything except a translator of Russian and a news writer (in real life). 

I was surprised to find that Sansar even had as much "create-ability for dummies" as it did. But, you can't go too far with it (at least I couldn't). 

The key to making virtual world versimilitude, as I've always said is: a) a sense of place b) drama. That's the human condition in the real world so you can't expect it to be different in the virtual world. Sansar's "scene" doesn't have the sense of place of a contiguous sim, although it's fairly large, because you can't walk over to a neighbor's; you're like a Sim on your lot in the Sims Online. You HAVE to teleport. And to where? You have to pick, off the ever-burgeoning unsorted Atlas. There's also little capacity for drama, by which I mean not so much "drama queen" sort of stuff but the tension of a story, a gripping interest, a "let's see what happens next" -- although that may come.

What I discovered is that Sansar has a different formula for immersion (maybe not even consciously, or maybe in spite of its master devs). That is, for me, SL's immersion comes from geographic contiguity, being able to reach out into the scene and pick up and edit things or put things out from inventory, share things with other people, form relationships based on your common place or interest and so on. I can happily spend hours in SL because it has those features. I never used to like decorating houses at all, and preferred landscaping, but in the last few years with cheap gachas I've begun to love decorating. 

But in Sansar, although the graphics are in some ways "better" than SL -- there's no gray squares or big blobs or jelly babies -- they feel like a Disney Viewmaster or 3-D post-card, a Stereopticon, as they called them in the 19th century. Your avatar is not part of the scene at all and can't be, since he can't click on anything, can't read an object edit menu, can't receive things or trade things -- he can just look. I imagine those features will be added on later, but for now, it means that the avatar is not mise-en-scene, he is a gawker. The thundering of his footsteps in these silent non-interoperable scenes adds to that feeling of isolation.

BUT another thing the Sansar engineers have spent a lot of time on is audio, and how sound works, which you don't get in SL or at least not unless you go to a special sim trying to achieve this. Remember the Virtual Barber youtube Philip Linden told us about years ago? I know he's interested in making sound do these things in VWs as well. And so far, to make your little scene immersive, what you have to work with is sound -- you just don't have anything else.

That's enough to hold your interest for awhile, anyway, or at least mine. I've experimented with putting sound effects in my Halloween monastery in SL and things like this, but in Sansar you can adjust the range and volume and type of sound more (it seems). So if you visit my lot in Sansar (called "Flamingo Court" by "Dyerbrook," my name there) you can see I put in things with sound effects everywhere and it's kinda cool. I found and uploaded them all myself, which gave me a feeling of accomplishment -- that feeling of having built something that you need to "stick with" a virtual world and which sadly too many never get with SL and quit because it's hard.

I realize this is a very amateur impression, as more savvy people can do more with scripts or whatever. But I found there isn't even a chat script. I can't make an object "talk" so as to tell a story (as I do in my Shaman's Hut in SL). There's no notecard delivery, no dispensing of tea-cups -- nothing like that. To be sure, you can put a message into the "Welcome" script but it's only 2 lines. And chat doesn't seem to bubble up at you, instead you have to remember to go look at it. So the thing has talked to you and you didn't even notice it. I tried to put objects with that welcome script in it to make a "story" and "stations" in a narrative, but it didn't work because (I think) they are all seen at once. This is the sort of thing someone will fix if they feel like it.

While there isn't building as we know it, there's this XYZ thinger that is sort of like the prim cube which you use to place things. You can place, shrink, copy easily to make a scene with flowers or a pond with weeds or whatever. So that's good. It's just that if you don't know how to use Blender or whatever it is they use to make 3-D models, you're at the mercy of shop.sansar.com  This is rather sparse at present, although it does have some nice things and many free things.

I was frustrated at first even getting the scene to save because I didn't realize you have to do "save" AS WELL AS "build" each time you add something. That gets time consuming. I might have left for good, but something made me want to put up my motel, so I came back, spent $20 US to buy some stuff, arranged some stuff, and struggled maybe 3 hours to get my scene to work (an actual dev would take 15 minutes).

So now what? There's no way to monetarize a scene (yet) that is assembled, not created, unlike SL rentals. There's no way to create something and let a whitelist of people into it who pay you, let's say. And what will they do there? You can't sit down, let alone have sex. This doesn't bother me; I actually find it refreshing to be away from the stress of hentai child porn in my face every time I open up SL search simply because I want to leave "adult" checked as my customers have "adult" avatars and some are on land rated "adult". It's nice to just see pretty things.

Much of what is up there now, including the better-made Linden stuff just isn't that compelling. I think it's because you need visuals plus mood music or sound to try to get the "immersion" factor to kick in. One of the lots that had those features was by Silas Marner. But even there, with freaky/scary figures and a mood setting, you couldn't walk up the stairs. Unfortunately, after the richly-developed SL, you tend to say "but it doesn't have this or that" when going to Sansar. Ljubljana or even Vienna may be much prettier than New York, but you can't buy a hot dog in the middle of the night, let alone living-room furniture the way you can in NYC. That sort of thing.

I do hope the game gods of Sansar make sitting down a priority. Until an avatar can sit down on a chair, he can't feel at home in a world. He will inevitably feel like a tourist. Even tourists get to sit in cafes, though.

 

Edited August 2, 2017 by Prokofy Neva

[Derek Torvalar]

Ya I called it a collection of digital dioramas.

Like going to a museum to see models of neanderthals sitting around eating shrubs and when you get tired of looking at that one you move to the next one.

[Luna Bliss]

 

[DartAgain]

8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

 

Or ...

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Luna Bliss]

 

[Prokofy Neva]

39 minutes ago, Derek Torvalar said:

Ya I called it a collection of digital dioramas.

Like going to a museum to see models of neanderthals sitting around eating shrubs and when you get tired of looking at that one you move to the next one.

Well, what would it take for your diorama to become a virtual world? What would be the ingredients?

[Derek Torvalar]

Scripting, and as you said interoperability. At this stage, on regular computer, the only thing you can do is bump into collision objects to move them around like the various balls available.

Being able to interact with the scene, sit, throw, sex etc and with one another while in the scene. Though the Adult stuff is verboten at present.

This is coming of course. Just gonna be a long while yet for it to arrive.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Derek Torvalar

[LittleMe Jewell]

12 hours ago, Derek Torvalar said:

Ya I called it a collection of digital dioramas.

Like going to a museum to see models of neanderthals sitting around eating shrubs and when you get tired of looking at that one you move to the next one.

Yes, though I did visit some Experiences that I'd like to go back to after I get a VR setup - assuming they are still around then, since I'm not sure when I'll bite that bullet.

Edited August 2, 2017 by LittleMe Jewell

[Chris Corvinus]

9 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Well, what would it take for your diorama to become a virtual world? What would be the ingredients?

A virtual world is interactive. Sansar you just build something that people can wander around in and look at things. It's a quite boring concept.

[Jeny Howlett]

I visited it briefly yesterday after borrowing my friends VR. Couldn't even last for 5 min before going on a puke marathon. Still feel sick and dizzy today ( Guess my severe motion sickness attributed to it). People say having constant 90fps helps to reduce virtual reality sickness - not in my case. And its pretty pointless without VR.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Jeny Howlett

[Ina Fairport]

11 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

 

I do hope the game gods of Sansar make sitting down a priority. Until an avatar can sit down on a chair, he can't feel at home in a world. He will inevitably feel like a tourist. Even tourists get to sit in cafes, though.

 

Yes, definitely !

[LittleMe Jewell]

58 minutes ago, Jeny Howlett said:

I visited it briefly yesterday after borrowing my friends VR. Couldn't even last for 5 min before going on a puke marathon. Still feel sick and dizzy today ( Guess my severe motion sickness attributed to it). People say having constant 90fps helps to reduce virtual reality sickness - not in my case. And its pretty pointless without VR.

This is my VR fear.  As I get older I seem to experience motion sickness more easily.

[Monti Messmer]

Sansar was never Second Life 2, and after a visit, this time Lindens spoke the truth.

Look at the forums here, so many people ask if their computer setup is enough, or why their Laptop cannot do this or that.

Now you need a very good PC plus several hundreds of $ for a VR headset plus plus..

I loved SL for the easiness of creating things "ingame" (bad this got removed with mesh) and the amount of people from all over the world.

Sansar looks like to only have the nerds, sorry it´s not ment bad more like - only for people that invest in new technology that has no real use right now.

That leaves out me and alot of my SL friends because most cannot afford that technology or dealing with the amount of up/download rate Sansar needs.

SL isn´t dying but people loose interest, it´s here for over 10 years. Count the people that are still active on games of that age.

Monti

[ChinRey]

17 minutes ago, Monti Messmer said:

Sansar was never Second Life 2

It was actually. Right after Linden Lab first announced Sansar everybody, including LL themselves, though it was going to be a replacement for Second Life. It only lasted for a few days - weeks at most - but even today people's view of the two virtual realities is very strongly colored by that misunderstanding. Even many people who know better can't help thinking of Sansar as SL2 every now and then. It show how important first impressions are and it's going to be a problem both for Second Life and Sansar. People will keep comparing apples and oranges and can not or will not understand why LL can't come up with the Ultimate Fruit to Replace All Old Outdated Fruits.

Edited August 2, 2017 by ChinRey

[Jeny Howlett]

I even get dizzy from standing on a chair.... so you can only guess how extreme it is. Technology doesn't limit me, my body does. 

56 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

This is my VR fear.  As I get older I seem to experience motion sickness more easily.

 

Edited August 2, 2017 by Jeny Howlett

[Klytyna]

1 hour ago, Monti Messmer said:

Sansar looks like to only have the nerds, sorry it´s not ment bad more like - only for people that invest in new technology that has no real use right now.

Which is the irony I enjoy most about Project Stupid, Ebbe started a row claiming SL was the 'Territory of Geekdom' because of all the people who have learned techy skills to exist and prosper here, and claimed Project Stupid would be geek free, democritised and wow fab groovy, and now, all the hardcore 'geeks' are preparing to migrate to Project Stupid, to vomit while staggering around VR Art,

Classic!
 

[Klytyna]

3 hours ago, Jeny Howlett said:

I visited it briefly yesterday after borrowing my friends VR. Couldn't even last for 5 min before going on a puke marathon. Still feel sick and dizzy today ( Guess my severe motion sickness attributed to it). People say having constant 90fps helps to reduce virtual reality sickness - not in my case. And its pretty pointless without VR.

VR... I first experienced VR in about 1990, on a very expensive Proof of Concept Setup, in a public place, You sat in an 'acceleration couch' style seat with 2 hand levers and two foot pedals, wore the helmet, lowered the visor and off you went. There was little or no incidence of Vomit-Cam, because the visors were NOT immersive. You could see your own body in peripheral vision at the bottom of the visor. The system certainly did not run at 90 fps or anything close. It ran at 60 fps INTERLACED Colour PAL TV signal, effectively an actual fps of... 30.

Motion sickness is a conflict in the brain between signals recieved from the eyes with signals recieved from the inner ear. People prone to it, can get ill trying to read a book while on a coach or train, eyes say "stationary on comfy seat reading book", inner ear says "screaming along at 70 mph", stomach says "HUEY RALPH". Traditionally, one of the most effective remedies for this is to look up, out the window at the distant horizon so your brain can re-sync the signals from eye and ear. LESS immersive, not MORE.

This mythical 90-fps Vomit Barrier, is just that, a myth. Somebody not that prone to Vomit-cam gets to test a new 'super fps vr experiment' and doesn't puke, "Yay the Answer is found! MOAR LEET-GEEK FPS". The testing done is often flawed, failing to account for the fact that many people can and do aclimatise to motion sickness. 

NASA routinely trains people not to puke, by putting them in a 747 and dropping it out of the sky from 10,000 ft.

LL have apparently admitted that 'running' in their new VR paradise is 'on hold' while they work on a tech fix for vomit-cam, and that media event, posted in another thread where using LL's chosen hardware, on a special vip setup guaranteed to produce the Magic-90, aided by actual LL executives, the reviewer STILL had nausea trying to walk.

THIS is why VR has remained a geek-gimmick for more than a quarter of a century, and failed to become mass market. Less immersive goggles, may well be the answer for many, and so initially aiming at more immersive headboxes was perhaps LL's greatest single error in their plans for VR.

 

Edited August 2, 2017 by Klytyna

[Prokofy Neva]

4 hours ago, Jeny Howlett said:

I visited it briefly yesterday after borrowing my friends VR. Couldn't even last for 5 min before going on a puke marathon. Still feel sick and dizzy today ( Guess my severe motion sickness attributed to it). People say having constant 90fps helps to reduce virtual reality sickness - not in my case. And its pretty pointless without VR.

I don't have a VR headset and don't plan on getting one.

I have tested them at various tech expos. I didn't get dizzy *as* I was doing it, let's say, for 15 minutes. I felt fine. Then oddly, after I got up, walked around for another half hour, all of a sudden I felt carsick way after the fact. Not enjoyable and not worth it.

But so far I see you don't require the headset to go in Sansar, see things, and create things. But you have to have skills.

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

There was little or no incidence of Vomit-Cam, because the visors were NOT immersive. You could see your own body in peripheral vision at the bottom of the visor. The system certainly did not run at 90 fps or anything close. It ran at 60 fps INTERLACED Colour PAL TV signal, effectively an actual fps of... 30.

That is a very important point. One way to icnrease the immersion of a virtual reality is to bring the user closer but going all the way to VR headsets may be a step too far for many. Going from SL style birdseye view to first person view is a far bigger step than switching from screen to VR headset and it has far fewer negative side effects.

One of the things that surprised and worried me when I saw Sansar was that they kept the birdseye view for screen viewing and even more or less locked the cam to that position. It seems Linden Lab is deliberately trying to keep non-VR users away from Sansar by reducing the quality of their experience. (The only other explanation I can think of for this odd choice of camera position is that they didn't think it through but that doesn't make sense of course. Linden Lab always thinks things through, carefully considering every possible aspect and consequence of any changes before implementing them. They're famous for it.)

 

1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

This mythical 90-fps Vomit Barrier, is just that, a myth.

Not just a myth. A higher frame rate with smoother transitions will reduce the vomit effect. But you're right, it won't solve the core problem. Interestingly, reading the Occulus Rift web site, it seems they're nto even aware of the well known physiological mechanisms that causes the vomit effect in the first place.

[Klytyna]

2 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Interestingly, reading the Occulus Rift web site, it seems they're nto even aware of the well known physiological mechanisms that causes the vomit effect in the first place

My Inner Cynic says that they probably are aware but, their Marketing Sith correctly pointed out that advertising...

"The All new Tech-Illiterate-Cyber-Geek Friendly VR Vomit-Cam, now with 0.0000745% LESS Puke!"

... might not be the most effective way to convince people to spend $3-400 on one of the bloody things, while claiming they have a magic insta-fix that guarantees a puke free outcome for your substantial outlay, would help convince people.
 

[LittleMe Jewell]

34 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

But so far I see you don't require the headset to go in Sansar, see things, and create things. But you have to have skills.

True.  However, at least for now, you have to have the VR to ineract with objects - pick them up and such.  There is a basketball experience, but you can only actually pick up the balls and do anything via the VR interface, not via the desktop interface - though that is suppose to change.

[Prokofy Neva]

Oh, well I can see they will develop for that then, and not worry about those without headsets. Well, I can wait for the future to arrive unevenly, it always has for me.

I wonder if a cheap Google cardboard would work on this. But then, you need to be hands free to do things like pick up balls.

I am not spendings hundreds on any headset. 

[Anna Nova]

Can't try Sansar, it's only supported on Microsoft Wonkydoos    I'll bet they do crApple next too.

[Klytyna]

1 hour ago, anna2358 said:

Can't try Sansar, it's only supported on Microsoft Wonkydoos    I'll bet they do crApple next too.

Heh... OS Names, it's Microbloat WinDon't, Apehole Muck, and Whinux.

The last is because despite being warned that nobody makes apps for it, its users installed it and found... Nobody makes apps for it, and whine about it.

In this case though, it's to your advantage, you wont have to download a gig of viewer code to puke while your bad avi stares at bad art...

That's a win for you, right?
 

[Anna Nova]

2 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Heh... OS Names, it's Microbloat WinDon't, Apehole Muck, and Whinux.

The last is because despite being warned that nobody makes apps for it, its users installed it and found... Nobody makes apps for it, and whine about it.

In this case though, it's to your advantage, you wont have to download a gig of viewer code to puke while your bad avi stares at bad art...

That's a win for you, right?
 

I never found a program yet that was not on Linux that I wanted.  Well, there are a couple, but I found they run under Wine (maybe that's Whine?).

Sansar might be the first, I'll never know.  Maybe that's a win.