Survey Threads

[Phil Deakins]

Yesterday, a student from Warsaw posted a typical survey thread, and it got the typical negative treatment that almost all such threads get here. Later, the thread was removed for some unknown (and definitely unjust, unless the OP asked for it) reason. So I have a question about survey threads:-

Why do they get such negative treatment from some of this forum's users, when, if someone doesn't like them, it's so much easier to simply ignore them?

[Sassy Romano]

Same reason that when someone posts a spam link in a group chat, 20 messages follow discussing the spammer.

 

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and the ability to control that desire to be heard varies, just like my response here, I was just going to ignore you but failed miserably.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Students doing research, or even professional academic researchers are required to adhere to ethical standards when involving human subjects.  Certain disclosures should be made to the human subjects so that the person knows exactly what they are getting into, how their privacy will be protected and who to contact to remove their answers to the survey if they decide later they don't want them published and who is supervising the student if their behavior is dodgy.

Students who don't adhere to these standards when coming to the forum and asking for participants may be being unethical and in some cases the privacy or well being of the human subject could be jeopardized, particularly if they are asking personal questions and plan on possibly quoting someone.  More and more their papers are published on the internet. Some people in RL know the SL names of their friends or family.  There is also the reputation of the person in the SL community to consider if really sensitive questions are being asked, and the person is quoted in the paper. 

I and many others will participate in a survey if the survey is posted with the proper disclosures here in the forum or on whatever survey vehicle they are using, If not, we won't.  So when I comment on the lack of them, I am hoping they will do the right thing and give the information so they get more participation, including my own.  I am not trying to be mean about it,when I do this.

I didn't see or respond to that thread but as far as negative comments and treatment, i think some people are sick of students doing sloppy research and not adhering to these ethics because they feel the student is viewing their potential subjects as guinea pigs or just avatars and not real humans and showing no respect.  I've heard and seen more than a few comments about this here and in world.  There are also a lot of people in SL with degrees who had to adhere to these standards when they were in school, and don't see why the students wanting to survey here should get a free pass.

Yes, people could just ignore the survey if they don't like the lack of disclosure, but that really isn't helpful to the student or to other students who may consider using the forum for research.  I don't condone being nasty about it to any student, however.  Someone may have RIC'd the post and/or maybe we just have at least one moderator who knows the drill or just saw things getting out of hand and removed it.

 

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

Why do they get such negative treatment from some of this forum's users, when, if someone doesn't like them, it's so much easier to simply ignore them?

---

Oh please, should your posts be subject to elimination due to negative commentary, your post count would be significantly reduced... as would mine.

...Dres

[Phil Deakins]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Same reason that when someone posts a spam link in a group chat, 20 messages follow discussing the spammer.

 

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and the ability to control that desire to be heard varies, just like my response here, I was just going to ignore you but failed miserably.

---

But the surverys are not spam. They are genuine. If they are not liked, why not just ignore them? If someone with clipboard and a badge stopped you (the generic you) on the street to ask if you have 5 minutes to answer some question, you'd say no and walk on if you didn't want to. You wouldn't jump down their throat for asking (still the generic you). So why do people feel the need to do it here? (all generic YOUs )

[Phil Deakins]

Yes, but it's not our concern if surveys are put together badly. If we don't like them we can ignore them. That's not my question. I'm asking why some people jump down the throats of those who post surverys instead of just walking on (metaphorically).

[Phil Deakins]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

Why do they get such negative treatment from some of this forum's users, when, if someone doesn't like them, it's so much easier to simply ignore them?

---

Oh please, should your posts be subject to elimination due to negative commentary, your post count would be significantly reduced... as would mine.

...Dres

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That's true but I'm not asking about negative posts in general. I'm only asking why some people feel the need to pick on students who post surverys for their college work.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

If someone with clipboard and a badge stopped you (the generic you) on the street to ask if you have 5 minutes to answer some question, you'd say no and walk on if you didn't want to. You wouldn't jump down their throat for asking (still the generic you). So why do people feel the need to do it here? (all generic YOUs

)

---

Pffft, I jump down throats!

I once had an amaaaaaazing argument with some guy from Amnesty International after he tried to use particularly dumb tricks to get my attention. I also had a great time arguing with an Army recruiter who believed 16 year-old kids should Go Forth and Die without any second thought. Neither continues to press their cause in my locality.

Maybe I'm just generally antagonising.

To answer your question though, I don't think any harm is done if a couple of lazy students suffer a little GBH in the earhole. We don't owe these students anything, and they almost never want to speak to us as people - just ticking boxes. They're tough cookies, and believe me they would see the same 'in the field'.

[Coby Foden]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Yes, but it's not our concern if surveys are put together badly

---

In that particular survey thread the OP did ask (in one later post) that what was wrong with the survey and how it could be improved. Some of the replies did clearly point out what was wrong - unfortunately it often can happen that the tone of the replies might not be very friendly.

You say that it's "not our concern"; but even so, wouldn't it be beneficial for the survey maker if they were told what was bad in the survey? What is more beneficial, remain silent and ignore or point out mistakes? After all, they are students, busy learning new things. Maybe they could learn something from our replies - bad and good ones?

[Phil Deakins]

Of course no harm is done to them but that's not the point, or the question. The question is why do some people feel the need to do it in stead of simply ignoring it and moving on?

And I really don't think that they would be treated "the same in the field". people with clipboards who ask passers-by if they can spare a few minutes to answer some questions, don't get throats jumped down for asking.

[Phil Deakins]

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Coby Foden wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

Yes, but it's not our concern if surveys are put together badly

---

In that particular survey thread the OP

did

ask (in one later post) that what was wrong with the survey and how it could be improved. Some of the replies did clearly point out what was wrong - unfortunately it often can happen that the tone of the replies might not be very friendly.

You say that it's "not our concern"; but even so, wouldn't it be beneficial for the survey maker if they were told what was bad in the survey? What is more beneficial, remain silent and ignore or point out mistakes? After all, they

are students

, busy learning new things. Maybe they could learn something from our replies - bad and good ones?

---

Of course it might be helpful to point out what is wriong with the survey, and there were a couple of contructive posts in the thread in amongst the negative stuff. But even then, why even offer constructive suggestions when all they say to the OPs is, you've written this survey badly? If s/he's written it badly, s/he'll be marked on it. So it's not our concern how good or bad a survey is.

Again, it doesn't answer the question that I asked. Why all the negativity to them? They ae only trying to do their education, so why be bad to them?

[Freya Mokusei]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

And I really don't think that they would be treated "the same in the field". people with clipboards who ask passers-by if they can spare a few minutes to answer some questions, don't get throats jumped down for asking.

---

You think? I would try this and find out for yourself - I think you'd be surprised. Interrupting someone in a rush or soliciting where you're not wanted will get you in hot water very quickly. The majority of people might not react this way, but you only need one or two reactions like this to ruin your day.

The ones who cold-call (via phone, typically at dinner time) are well reported to be some of the most abused and dehumanised jobs available. This is a better example - since telephone is more like SL, we can't humanise immediately without a human face. It's almost amazing how this slight distancing dramatically increases the amount of 'abuse' suffered.

This effect is not unique to Second Life at all. Anyone who confronts an unknown and unfiltered audience with the sole intent of taking without giving, knows the risks of doing so.

[Emma Krokus]

I posted my opinion about the survey. And I am sorry the thread was pulled, especially as it seems the student was open to comments about the research design.

What bothered me was the wholly negative attitude the survey questions displayed towards users and use of Second Life. To me this demonstrated ignorance and a lack of understanding of Second Life and the survey's target audience. I felt that the bias shown by the questions was likely to engender defensive responses by participants, thus skew survey results and affect whether useful conclusions could be drawn from the data. 

It bothers me that such surveys get posted with depressing regularity and I'd like students to think harder about how they approach their research.

 

 

 

 

 

[Syo Emerald]

I wonder Phil...have you seen his "survey", have you read all the past "survey" posts made by students in the past years? There were a few, that actually go approved by the people on this forum. But of course, like every thread here on the forum, threads asking for filling out a survey get feedback from the forum community. Thats not a special thing.

We had many badly done research attempts here in the past and while you simply say that everyone just feels like posting their opinion, there is actual knowledge on what makes a good research and what does not. Keeping silent about that damages scientific research as a whole and maybe the success of the student, when he hands in his work.

The survey in question here also provoked some rather rough answers, because its content was not only not suited for a survey, but gave clear hints that the student already believed that he would find a lot of people who are addicted to Second Life in an unhealthy way. And many people are sick of sterotypes like this. It can easily be seen as highly disrespectful.

[Phil Deakins]

Yes, Syo, I did see the survey, and I actually filled it in because of all the flack that the student got. I was so ashamed, and a little angry, at the reception he got from this forum, and that other people who post surveys usually get. It doesn't matter whether or not it's a good survey, or whether or not it had a bias, because I've no idea what the student had in mind when he created it  That's for the student and his examiner(s) to consider - not me or anyone else here.

If a person doesn't think much of a survey, pass it by, walk on, ignore it. But some don't. They just pour negativity at the surveyor, and for no good reason. Why do they feel the need to do that? That's what I want to know. Even the posts that tried to be constructive were in the midst of some unnecessarily bad posts. One person even posted just to make fun of the fact that 'always' is not the opposite of 'does not apply', when anyone with a few working brain cells would have realised that the student was Polish and what was actually meant was 'never'. Maybe that's how the Polish translated into English. I have no doubt that the person who posted it was just jumping on the negative bandwagon. It's a nasty thing to do.

So what if a survey appears to have a a pre-conceived idea about SL users? It did appear to show a such a bias but it doesn't mean that the student actually held that opinion. Heck, s/he's spent thousands of hours in online games. If s/he did have that opinion, filling the survey in would have shown that it was wrong.

And just for the information, I don't believe that the survey had the bias that people think. All the questions were about possible negative effects of using SL, such as do you stay logged longer than you'd intended, but when the options are always in the range from never to always, there is no bias or assumptions.

[Phil Deakins]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

And I really don't think that they would be treated "the same in the field". people with clipboards who ask passers-by if they can spare a few minutes to answer some questions, don't get throats jumped down for asking.

---

You think? I would try this and find out for yourself - I think you'd be surprised. Interrupting someone in a rush or soliciting where you're not wanted will get you in hot water very quickly. The majority of people might not react this way, but you only need one or two reactions like this to ruin your day.

Yes, I do think that, Freya. They may often get ignored, or even be told to p-ss off as the person walks on, but I don't believe that people on the street stop to jump down their throats.

The ones who cold-call (via phone, typically at dinner time) are well reported to be some of the most abused and dehumanised jobs available. This is a better example - since telephone is more like SL, we can't humanise immediately without a human face. It's almost amazing how this slight distancing dramatically increases the amount of 'abuse' suffered.

I gave one spam phone caller a load of my mind once, but the same company had called me 3 times in 5 minutes. The 3rd one got my wrath, and it was justified. However, it's not a good analogy for this topic. When the phone rings we stop what we're doing to either answer it or check if it's a number we know. That actually interferes with our lives, whereas the second it takes to read a thread title, or the few seconds it takes to open a thread and read the first few words, don't really interfere with our lives at all. If we have time to write replies, then it hasn't interfered at all.

---

 

[Tex Monday]

I guess for me, Phil, it's the fact that I feel they're being lazy. Most times (IMHO) when students throw surveys in here, they're trying to get us to do the work for them without doing much work themselves. That and the fact that almost all of them are brand new residents who wouldn't know an avatar from an ardvark. I wouldn't mind helping as much if someone said something like: "Hi, I've been inworld for about 6 months researching a paper for my thesis and I'd like to get the opinion of other residents...blah blah blah" (yes. extra points if they use blah blah blah):matte-motes-sunglasses-3:. At least it shows a bit of effort on their part. I appreciate the opinion that you gave in the deleted thread about trying to get answers from users, but do some background before jumping on here..go to locations inworld..find out things...talk to people.....

Just my two cents....

ETA: To answer your other question, Phil, about why we don't walk away..for me, it's that I'm tired of seeing them. I used to walk away...maybe part of it is me giving my (completely unwanted) opinion about how these people should be handling this or maybe I didn't eat my fiber medicine this morning and I'm incredibly grumpy....:matte-motes-wink-tongue:

[Phil Deakins]

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Emma Krokus wrote:

I posted my opinion about the survey. And I am sorry the thread was pulled, especially as it seems the student was open to comments about the research design.

What bothered me was the wholly negative attitude the survey questions displayed towards users and use of Second Life. 

To me this demonstrated ignorance and a lack of understanding of Second Life and the survey's target audience.

I felt that the bias shown by the questions was likely to engender defensive responses by participants, thus skew survey results and affect whether useful conclusions could be drawn from the data. 

It bothers me that such surveys get posted with depressing regularity and I'd like students to think harder about how they approach their research.

 

---

The questions did appear to show a pre-conceived idea about SL users. It wasn't the way they were put though. It was that there were only such questions. However, every question had a range of answer options, from Never to Always, so there really wasn't a negative bias.

Suppose there was just one question, such as, 'Are you addicted to SL to the extent that your RL suffers?' On it's own it just sounds like an interesting question. The usual answer would be, ;'No, of course not'.

The questions in the survey covered a lot of possible RL areas that might affected by using SL, and, put together, they did seem to give an appearance of a pre-conceived idea about SL users. But all the answer options ranged from Never to Always, so, if there was such a pre-conceived idea, then plenty of people filling it in would soon straighten it out.

Maybe so, but it's not for anyone here to teach them how to approach their research, and especially not by jumping down their throats in the way that some people did yesterday. It's for their tutors to teach them.

[sirhc DeSantis]

Phil wrote "The questions did appear to show a pre-conceived idea about SL users. It wasn't the way they were put though. It was that there were only such questions. However, every question had a range of answer options, from Never to Always, so there really wasn't a negative bias."

 

Actually, I took the survey and as I pointed out in my comment, the 'Never' response was not present, but instead had "Does not apply".

So your assertion that no negative bias was present is not valid. If the OP changed it after I commented then perhaps something was learned. But I doubt that.

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

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Tex Monday wrote:

I guess for me, Phil, it's the fact that I feel they're being lazy. Most times (IMHO) when students throw surveys in here, they're trying to get us to do the work for them without doing much work themselves

. That and the fact that almost all of them are brand new residents who wouldn't know an avatar from an ardvark. I wouldn't mind helping as much if someone said something like: "Hi, I've been inworld for about 6 months researching a paper for my thesis and I'd like to get the opinion of other residents...blah blah blah" (yes. extra points if they use blah blah blah):matte-motes-sunglasses-3:. At least it shows a bit of effort on their part. I appreciate the opinion that you gave in the deleted thread about trying to get answers from users, but do some background before jumping on here..go to locations inworld..find out things...talk to people.....

Just my two cents....

---

That idea comes up in most survey threads, but think about it, Tex. If you wanted to know how users feel about SL, where would you ask? The obvious place is where there is a congregation of users. Yes, you could wander SL and ask individuals, but that's not the best way at all, because you'd have to ask each one individually, and that's after you've found each one who is actually willing to stop what they're doing to answer you. You'd want to go where the people are. In SL's case, it's the forum. In RL's case, it's in a busy shopping area. Other SL places would be clubs where people are listening to music, but you're not likely to get many answers during those times. I suppose you could try hubs and hope no griefers spot you. Realistically, the forum is the right place to ask.

It's not as though most surveys are asking what it's like in SL. Then the answer would be to go in and find out for yourself. That answer might apply to some surveys, but not to those who seek user's opinions, views, and how SL affects them. They don't ask us to do the work for them. They need us (users) for our opinions, etc. We're the only ones who can provide answers.

[Phil Deakins]

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Tex Monday wrote:

ETA: To answer your other question, Phil, about why we don't walk away..for me, it's that I'm tired of seeing them. I used to walk away...maybe part of it is me giving my (completely unwanted) opinion about how these people should be handling this or maybe I didn't eat my fiber medicine this morning and I'm incredibly grumpy....:matte-motes-wink-tongue:

---

Probably the latter

But, thank you, Tex. You#'re the only one so far who has actually answered my question (there was only question).

If seeing those threads now causes you to inject some negativity (I think that's whta you meant), can't you go back to your old way of just ignoring them and leaving them in peace? At least that way it won't wiind you up.

[Coby Foden]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

Why all the negativity to them? They ae only trying to do their education, so why be bad to them?

---

If the OP had started their post with something like: "I'm doing surveys of possible negative side effects of virtual worlds/online games. This part of my surveys is about Second Life. I would appreciate all your answers." then probably the OP would have gotten a lot better reception here.

 

Lacking that kind of generalization in the starting post, many saw it as very biased survey concentrating only to:

- the users of Second Life

- the bad effects of Second Life

Thus the negativity in replies to the OP.

 

It seems we would need a good wiki page:

How to conduct a good survey in Second Life forum without angering people.

Then for future 'bad' survey posts we could just reply by giving link to that wiki page without any ranting at all. :matte-motes-big-grin:

 

PS.

As you have seen and surely you know that "just ignore and move on from" a post does not work very well.

It is very hard for us to not reply to something if it triggers our minds a lot.

[Madelaine McMasters]

My response to this question in yesterday's thread vanished along with it. Now I have to make up another one.

The reason I posted a reply in yesterdays thread is exactly the same reason I often take these student surveys. I have an interest in the education of people. It's not such a great interest that I reply to every query in the forums, but when the express purpose of a thread is education, I give it more attention. I hope my criticism is constructive, but it is criticism. I'm usually accused of letting too much fly under my radar.

I take any survey I see here that seems reasonably well constructed, which is a substantial fraction of them. I don't worry so much whether the students have taken the time to get to know SL in-world.  If they did, they'd probably not have time for the class ;-). When I find problems with a survey, I often point them out, sometimes in the survey (if there's a comments section), sometimes in the forum. This survey was not well constructed and it was destined to produce useless if not harmful results. So I commented.

When I'm accosted by a surveyist in public, I generally demure. That's because I go out in public for a other reasons, usually to get replacement parts for my tractor. If the local John Deere dealership ever invites me to take a survey, I'm in.

It's different in the forums. I'm here to interact with others, sometimes to their dismay, but hopefully rarely so. So I'm much more inclined to take a survey or comment on it. And further, because the surveys are the work of students, and I can imagine a class discussion resulting from their analysis, it's harder to suppress my vanity. I could make a difference!

Phil, you can fight human nature, but you can't presume a win.

;-).

[Phil Deakins]

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sirhc DeSantis wrote:

Phil wrote "The questions did appear to show a pre-conceived idea about SL users. It wasn't the way they were put though. It was that there were only such questions. However, every question had a range of answer options, from Never to Always, so there really wasn't a negative bias."

 

Actually, I took the survey and as I pointed out in my comment, the 'Never' response was not present, but instead had "Does not apply".

So your assertion that no negative bias was present is not valid. If the OP changed it after I commented then perhaps something was learned. But I doubt that. 

---

I answered that in the original thread, and again in this one. It was clearly obvious that 'Does no apply' in that survey actually meant 'Never'. And I pointed out that he is Polish so English isn't his first language.

[Phil Deakins]

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Coby Foden wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

 

Why all the negativity to them? They ae only trying to do their education, so why be bad to them?

---

If the OP had started their post with something like: "

I'm doing surveys of possible negative side effects of virtual worlds/online games. This part of my surveys is about Second Life. I would appreciate all your answers.

" then probably the OP would have gotten a lot better reception here.

 

Lacking that kind of generalization in the starting post, many saw it as very biased survey concentrating

only

to:

- the users of Second Life

- the bad effects of Second Life

Thus the negativity in replies to the OP.

 

It seems we would need a good wiki page:

How to conduct a good survey in Second Life forum without angering people.

Then for future 'bad' survey posts we could just reply by giving link to that wiki page without any ranting at all. :matte-motes-big-grin:

 

PS.

As you have seen and surely you know that "just ignore and move on from" a post does not work very well.

It is very hard for us to not reply to something if it triggers our minds a lot.

---

I don't think it's hard to let it be, Coby. All it needs is an attitude that I'm not going to reply in that thread because I'd have to be negative about it. It is not necessary to reply at all.

The question were about possible negative RL effects of being an SL users. I haven't disputed that. What I have said, and I say again, is that all the questions had answer option ranging from Always to Never. If you'd done the survey (and you might have), and you answered never to every question, then you'd be seen as a user whose RL is not affected by SL - a positive.