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My negative feedback on Second Life


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Pussycat Catnap wrote:


Ethan Paslong wrote:

and please.... stop calling sl a game, as long you see it like that you don't get what it really is.

I disagree. Please stop not calling it a game. It is one.

As long as you stick to that outdated concept of a game, you don't get what it really is.

 

It isn't a game. As I said earlier, many of Hoppies viewpoints on SL are highly affected by his opinion that SL is a game and therefore he has expections, that are somewhat connected to the expections you have on a game.

The best example is the expection that it has to have build-in animations that can catch up to what you find in video games. Because thats how it is in games, isn't it? You get premade, smooth animations in games.

Next example are his problems with clothes...in games everythin fits your "character", everything looks perfect and is easy to wear and take off. So shouldn't it be the same in SL, because SL is a game? Oh and shouldn't we call avatars from now on characters, because this is a game?

You can say as much as you want that SL is a game, arguing with one concept of what a game is and that SL therefore is a game (I highly disagree on that plain view), but it doesn't cut the core. As I said people connect expections based on prior experiances to what they think of when they think "game". And who hasn't met at least one newbie expressing how boring and dumb this "game" is? In my opinion seeing SL as a came leads to misconceptions and expections that are very different from what is actually there.

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My first reaction to what you said about the asserted "losers" in Second Life was merely "So?" lol. Simply because... if they enjoy it, they enjoy it. They're not the entire playerbase and even if they were, who are we to judge :)

 

As I say I am very live and let live - as long as people are happy and not hurting others then I say have at it, and would normally say that people who insult them should be ashamed, and probably have self-worth issues THEMSELVES! :)

 

Having said that though I entirely understand why a broader audience is desirable. I think the only thing that might put off that broader audience really are things in SL that are too technical, like the things I mentioned in my first post. "Normal people" tend to be quite casual so SL has to be casual as well to truly appeal to them, or at least casual to interact with.

 

I'm glad that the new CEO seems good, and also glad that SL gives people who might otherwise have almost nowhere somewhere to go.

 

For me, SL is definitely helping me to come out of my shell more and understand what I want more in reality. By going to SIMULATIONS of different social environments, I can almost "test" them on a personal level, without having to fly out to the Caribbean or Ibiza, or live in a hippy commune, or any number of the other social and physical environments I've enjoyed in SL :)

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Oh, as for the game and char thing, they're just words. Don't read into them so much. Sometimes I just say game instead of world or char instead of avatar but I am typing fast or whatever, and also I am one of the more casual SL players who a) doesn't really care what it gets called and b) thinks the popularity of the game is actually hindered by this kind of thing because it suggests elitism and a clique...

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Syo Emerald wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:


Ethan Paslong wrote:

and please.... stop calling sl a game, as long you see it like that you don't get what it really is.

I disagree. Please stop not calling it a game. It is one.

As long as you stick to that outdated concept of a game, you don't get what it really is.

 

It isn't a game. As I said earlier, many of Hoppies viewpoints on SL are highly affected by his opinion that SL is a game and therefore he has expections, that are somewhat connected to the expections you have on a game.

The best example is the expection that it has to have build-in animations

Next example are his problems with clothes...

You can say as much as you want that SL is a game, arguing with one concept of what a game is and that SL therefore is a game (I highly disagree on that plain view), but it doesn't cut the core.

Some games are built better for one task than another - that doesn't change that this is an online game.

You can say as much as you want that SL is not a game, arguing with one concept of what a game is and that SL therefore is not a game, but it doesn't "cut the core".

Not one of your arguments runs to more than 'the quality of my experience is not as good as it is in these games here' or 'people say the game is dumb, so obviously its not a game'.

- Those are not arguments...

 

And then you make an argument that I can rephrase as:

I call my 'piece' in monopoly just that, a 'piece' or 'game token'. So... obviously, World of Warcraft is NOT a game because it doesn't call the thing I move around a 'game token'.

- Which is deeply flawed for relying on the sematics used to label the 'point of reference / interraction'...

 

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-Fitting clothes: From what it sounds like, I think your describing the older method of trying clothes. Before mesh.

 

-Camera control: opinion

 

-Glitching: I think that has mostly to do with the builder of item and not SL itself but idk.

 

-Wooden movement: Have you purchased an AO yet?

 

Good luck! :)

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I don't know wether SL is a game or not but, I do know that people need to stop having hissy-fits when people substitute the word "virtual world" with "game" for convenience. It's pointless. It doesn't make SL any better or worse, it's just whining over a label. Some people may see real-life as a game of goals and rewards. It all depends on the person.

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Have you ever tried to read what I wrote?

You keep saying you are right and everyone is wrong, while don't even understand what I was saying. I don't care if SL is a game by any sort of definition of the word "game" (which somehow probably would make facebook a game too...). My entire point, and all examples I chosed (no I did NOT say that because some idiot says "its a dumb game" that SL can't be a game) gather around the observation that many people assume things, when they hear the word "game". And what I say so far doesn't lead me to believe that it was a benefit for anyone that those people put SL into the "game box" in their mind...together with a bunch of programs that are far different than SL. Of course, all those games are also different to each other, but they also share at least a got portion of things, which are often not given in SL.

Whenever I saw people refering to SL as a game or saw people treat everything and everyone with a mindset of "its just a game!", it was negative in one way or another. Again, I do not care if SL can be classified as a game or not, I just see what the word does.

And just in short: I wasn't talking about the quality of experiance either. That point was, again, an example about expections. It wasn't an agrument for "why SL is not a game" because I wasn't talking about that. I was explaining why, for me, the term game creates expections.

 

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Syo Emerald wrote:

Have you ever tried to read what I wrote?

You would not say that if you even bothered to comprehend my point before launching into another anti-game rant.

Now you're on the 'don't call it a game because people get upset about it being called a game' angle.

Fine. Frankly they need to be upset.

 

I linked my blog for a reason - on there I make that argument that if they accepted what the platform is, they might be better able to attract the kinds of people who use it, and because SL will NEVER attract the sorts who dismiss it without knowing it by glancing at it and seeing their idea of a game anyway. I argued there; own that bias, because you can't change their opinions anyway - but by owning the label, you can at least gain the people who are seeking something like SL, but dismiss SL because so many say its not for people wanting SL (a game).

Hint: There are a LOT of people like Hoppimike out there. Who want THIS game... but Hoppimike is one of the few who managed to get in here BEFORE somebody told him "its not a game, its not for you." So he managed to get past the filter the anti-game crowd puts up... and discover he's perfect for what is in here... and its perfect for him.

Own that label, and we'd be swimming in Hoppimikes.

 

And I'm not the only one who says this is a game. I'm just the one who doesn't back off.

 


JPG0809 wrote:

I don't know wether SL is a game or not but, I do know that people need to stop having hissy-fits when people substitute the word "virtual world" with "game" for convenience.

I entered this one in response to somebody's "hissy-fit" over the thing being called a game.

 

 Hissy fit One:


Syo Emerald wrote:

This here proves what I said in another thread. People who come to SL with the idea of it being a game, expect it to function in the same way a game does. The way an environment functions when its designed by the same bunch of specialized, paid and experianced staff.

 Hissy fit two:


Ethan Paslong wrote:

and please.... stop calling sl a game, as long you see it like that you don't get what it really is.

 Ya'll need to calm it down over that, or I'll just keep calling you on your hissy fits.

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I've actually wondered about the bad default animation many times. The old animations are just so unnatural and switching to an AO makes a huge difference in how your avatar looks. Why does it still have to be so weird? Does someone in LL find it charming?


The clothing is nuts now. Everything is splintered. There are regular system clothes, mesh clothes, clothes that work with mesh feet, hands, boobs, butts, etc. You can't just wear something now. You have to click on appliers, "add" alpha layers or resize your body. The residents are inventing new ways to modify and clothe our avatars but they're also layering on the complexity and making the whole process of getting dressed a less fun.

 

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I would like avatars to appear bigger rather than having to zoom in on them, in another virtual game called Red Light Center the avies appear big by default and you can zoom out, it would be great for all the detailed stuff like intricate jewllery, makeup, tattoos and all on SL avies to show with this rather than having to zoom in on them.

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I agree with you completely!

 

I think it's just because the game engine is old and seems to have been designed for the old style of clothing before mesh (hence why that one works so painlessly, but looks the worst).

 

The lack of better default animations is a mystery to me. Unless the defaults simply work for all avatars, and so they're safe choices? I'm not sure.

 

All of this stuff is probably being enthusiastically addressed as we speak, but probably for the upcoming High Fidelity "game" and not SL.

 

At present SL is aging but there is no newer game to pass the crown on to, so to speak. So things are a bit clunky and dated.

 

SL is perfectly passable I think though and a great experience even despite these shortcomings, but it would be nice to see them smoothed out! :)

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Syo Emerald wrote:


Hoppimike wrote:

Thanks for the help with the camera, Uncommon Truth.

 

I think the clothing thing is by far my biggest problem, I find it spoils the immersion a little because I can't just put on and take off clothing as easily as real life, it's like everything grrrriiiiinds to a halt the second I try to do it lol

 

I know I'm new. I just think it should be easier than this is all, for newbies and for everyone
:)

 

I think it would help the "game" to be more popular in future.

This here proves what I said in another thread. People who come to SL with the idea of it being a game, expect it to function in the same way a game does. The way an environment functions when its designed by the same bunch of specialized, paid and experianced staff.

Second Life is entirely different and even if LL wanted, they don't have 100% influence on what you describe here, because a bunch of disorganized, independend peoples makes everything in SL....the users create the clothes, not some group of game designers. You get get perfect clothes and restrict the freedom, or you get non-perfect clothes but every freedom you want.

 

And "more popular"...who do you think would join Second Life?

- Most gamers are bored with it, because they miss what a true game has to offer.

- Facebook-Fans want RL, not an immersive virtual world, where people like to keep their RL private.

SL was never a product for the mainstream market.

I have to agree with you, Syo.  Also, since the OP is comparing more natural avatar movement to games like WoW, having played both EQ & WoW, the avatars have VERY limited movement compared to SL, EQ moreso than WoW but an avatar cannot sit or lay in a gazillion different positions, never mind all the complicated dance movements and inter-avatar interaction.

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

 

Yes the camera controls are clunky compared to ANY OTHER 3D environment. And users here who have never played other MMOs don't get it with regards to how strange and bizarre SL's system is compared to industry norms for a 3D UI. - So when you raise this concern, you get them attacking you with 'this isn't an MMO' because they lack perspective... The ALT tricks don't really cut it... but they're better than nothing, sometimes...

Agree with you on this point.  The main complaint I've had with SL over the years is no real first person view.  Everquest didn't have that for quite awhile, the choices were overhead view (I suppose good in some instances such as large raids, etc.) or the "looking over the shoulder" view (second person, I think?)  Finally EQ added a first person view where one does not see their avatar but just what is in front of their eyes, like real life.  AND EQ added a function key method to quickly cycle between these three views.  I LOVED that.

The closest thing to first person view in SL is mouse view but that really isn't the same thing and I personally find it clumsy to use.

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Bree Giffen wrote:

The residents are inventing new ways to modify and clothe our avatars but they're also layering on the complexity and making the whole process of getting dressed a less fun.

 

Which is pretty much why I stick to system clothing (and as someone mentioned, either in this thread or another one, there truly are creators who can make system clothing works of art - I am fortunate to own some).  I do have clothing with sculptie attachments but I don't find them overall too much trouble to tweak.

As for the add-on feet, hands, etc. - bleh.

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Hoppimike wrote:

The lack of better default animations is a mystery to me. Unless the defaults simply work for all avatars, and so they're safe choices? I'm not sure.


It's important to remember that LL choose the defaults. They're Lab favourites for a reason - they have expanded functionality.

The 'duckwalk' (default walk and stands) allows for bending of the knees and feet on uneven ground. It also adjusts its pacing for the inclination of the ground below you, and you can walk backwards. Store-bought animations that override this cannot replicate the same features.

Animation Overrides started out as a hack - they replace functionality with cosmetic changes, but it's not the same. There's only one way to get the experience that SL was 'designed' to produce, and it doesn't include an AO.

Some of your other shots are on target as well. :)

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bebejee wrote:

I would like avatars to appear bigger rather than having to zoom in on them, in another virtual game called Red Light Center the avies appear big by default and you can zoom out, it would be great for all the detailed stuff like intricate jewllery, makeup, tattoos and all on SL avies to show with this rather than having to zoom in on them.

Maybe you are not aware that you can replace the default silly SL camera location with something better? You can change the camera to be: close, low, far, whatever you wish.

Look at the debug setting "CameraOffsetRearView". Play with the X and Z values. Making Z value smaller brings the camera lower. Y value controls the centering of the camera, Y=0 means that the camera is dead center on the avatar. By changing the Y you can put the camera on the right or left of the avatar (over the shoulder view).

The viewer default values are:

X = -3.000

Y = 0.000

Z = 0.750 <-- this Z value makes the camera location very high "view from the top of a tree" which is very unnatural.

I have changed my values to these (which are nice ones for average human sized avatar):

X = -3.700 <-- I use this X value because most of the time I want to see my avatar completely

Y = 0.000

Z = -0.100

If you want the camera to be closer to the avatar (showing only the upper body) then change the X value closer, like Z=-2.000 for example or even closer.

 

There are also other debug settings which affect the camera view. Anyway this "CameraOffsetRearView" is a good easy starting point to find a better than default camera view.

 

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Syo Emerald wrote:

...

Whenever I saw people refering to SL as a game or saw people treat everything and everyone with a mindset of "its just a game!", it was negative in one way or another. Again, I do not care if SL can be classified as a game or not, I just see what the word does.

Most people I have seen on this forum who refer to SL as a game do NOT treat everything and everyone with a mindset of "it's just a game".  The only thing the use of the word seems to do is to push some people's buttons.


Syo Emerald wrote:

... I was explaining why, for me, the term game creates expections.

 

The key in the phrase above is "for me".  Not everyone has the same expectations.  Not everyone uses the same definition of what a game is.  Some people are using the term in a broader sense of the word. It must be taken in context.

If the SL viewer came on physical media and was stocked in a computer store, would it be in with the business software or in with the game software?  I think we can all agree it would be in the game section of the store, the same way flight simulators would be as well as other non-traditional "games".  I think that often people are using "game" in that same broader sense of the word.

I can agree that "virual world" is a more precise definition of what SL is but that does not negate the fact that it is a game.

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Hoppimike wrote:

 
  • Fitting clothing. Really, this should be much easier. I think it could do with a bit of an overhaul. The normal clothing can cling weirdly to your character, meaning that you have to go for mesh, but mesh seems unnaturally rigid and doesn't cling hardly at all to your character, meaning hours wasted tweaking clothing to make it fit, changing items of clothing that you like just because they don't look right with another, etc. The whole thing feels quite cobbled together and archaic now. Yes you can make it work if you're very experienced or whatever but it's not very newbie friendly. I really think it needs to be rethought.

As a content creator, allow me to clear up this issue for you. Many people in SL want to blame content creators, but the actual reality of the situation is that the clothing problem is ENTIRELY the fault of LL, and has almost nothing to do with the skills of creators.

I am primarily an animator. That said, because I'm an animator, I fully understand the avatar, and rigging clothing. There are basically 3 types of clothing. First there is the system clothing that is actually part of the default avatar. They are essentially textures on the avatar's body. Then there is prim clothing, which is created using prims and sculpties which look extremely stiff on an avatar. Finally, we have the latest feature that is mesh clothing, which is rigged to the avatars body and will move along with the bones.

Mesh clothing is what I'll go into detail about. Essentially, LL has no clue what they are doing, to put it as politely as I can. I was in the mesh development group when LL was working on mesh. They didn't much think about mesh being used for clothing, or at least they did nothing to facilitate it. Personally, I didn't think much about it at the time, as I didn't make clothing. As soon as mesh was released, clothing creators started making clothing with mesh. Even tho the clothing could be rigged to bones, there was still a very glaring problem. The SL avatar can be many different shapes. LL didn't create a way for the clothing to fit those unique shapes. So, what was a creator to do? Well, since LL wasn't doing anything about it, the creator community came up with a system they called standard sizing, in which creators made mesh clothing to fit 5 specific sizes that they hoped would fit most users. At the time, I was totally against this, as I really felt the community needed to demand that LL develop a good solution. Never did I think LL would totally ignore the problem, but they did. The community, disenchanted by mesh clothing, discussed solutions and eventually privately funded a solution that was dubbed the Mesh Deformer. This was developed by an ex Linden name Qarl, and it only took a couple months and was submitted to LL. It worked fairly well, although there was concerns that it would create a little more lag. LL sat on it saying that they weren't getting enough mesh clothing to test it. Then nothing from LL. And again nothing from LL. So, standard sizing ruled, despite it not working out for most users.

Here is where we come to what we have now. Of course, people kept complaining about mesh clothing, and it seriously made LL look bad. So, they decided to do "something". In some user group meeting, I don't even remember if I was there, but I might have been, a creator brought up that he/she was rigging clothing to the collision bones, instead of the animating bones, and the collision bones would expand similarly to how the avatar's morphs would expand. Now, I have no idea what relationship this person had to the Lab, but for whatever reason LL jumped on it. This was about 6-7 months ago. Within a month or so, LL released the first versions of what they would eventually call Fitted Mesh. I tested it briefly and thought, well it kind of works, and thought LL would take the time to make it work much better. Let's just say I was hopeful. Then, not a month or so later, they released it as a finished product, at least in their opinion, which doesn't say much. I, of course jumped right into it, to test it. I was appalled. Like I said earlier, I know avatars, and I have rigged many things in my life. What I saw was total crap. It is literally impossible to get it to work properly. If you get it to fit the avatar, then you will screw up the actual rigging that moves the clothing with the bones. If you make it so that it works perfectly with the bone movements, then it won't actually fit around the avatar. It was and still is a mess. LL had done nothing since to correct any of it. I've spent easily weeks trying to get it to work properly, and it is literally impossible, but to LL, I guess they think it works fine. So, don't blame the creators.

We, the creators, have also suggested many other much better solutions since, even to the point that Cathy Foil developed a PERFECT solution that a bunch of us had been discussing. She got the viewer to allow her to import a kind of morph into SL, and it even had sliders, just like the avatar, to adjust the size and shape of the clothing to fit any size avatar PERFECTLY. She posted it in the forums and you can easily find that thread and see it. Of course, LL either didn't see it, or they just ignored us as they usually do.

So that is it, the whole mesh clothing debacle. Blame LL! Don't blame the content creators! We have bent over backwards to try and get LL to listen to us.

 

Here is the solution that Cathy came up with, if you want to see. Ignore her comment about giving me credit, as I did nothing to help her with this, and I can't even say that I was the first to even suggest it.

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Custom-Sliders-for-Fitted-Mesh-a-Solution/m-p/2529439#U2529439

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