Dear Linden Labs...what are you doing?

[Perrie Juran]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

---

I've read that around 2010/11, LL's revenues were estimated to be about $75 million/yr. Some time ago I did a napkin calculation that put it around $60 million now (20K sims @ $250/mo), and I expect it's still declining. Activision, purveyors of World of Warcraft and Call of Duty, anticipates $4.31 billion in revenue for FY 2013.

---

Good estimate. According to Tyche Shepherd:

 

• Monthly Tier Estimates - Private Estates c.US$3.975 Million, Mainland c.US$0.871 Million

 

 

---

Interestingly people forget that the SIM servers are not the only servers required for SL to work.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Server_architecture

There are a lot of Servers in addition to the SIM servers required for SL to work.

Then also consider all the protocol systems:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Protocol

 

It's real easy to forget that stuff going on in the back ground.  So if all someone sees is the cost of an Individual SIM when figuring out that LL is "making a killing," they are missing all the other stuff needed to make life on a SIM work.

---------------------------

In order to have "Your World, Your Imagination," you have to have 'virtual real estate' for people to build that world on.  And all of it needs to be paid for somehow.

The economic model LL chose was and is based on 'land ownership.'  Some how it needed to be established who gets to build where.  What other economic model would work in establishing who gets to build where and on how many sq meters of virtual land would they get to build on?

If there is anything unfair about the system, it's not the cost of a SIM.  It's the fact that all the free accounts get to enjoy the benefits of SL on the hard earned dollars of those who pay for the land.  Maybe what I really need to do is start telling my friends that if they want to visit me at my SL home that they need to start paying me for the privilege of coming over.

Maybe there is another Economic Model that could work for SL.  But you just can't blindly say that the Cost of a SIM is too high.  You have to think in terms of the entire picture.  If someone could come up with a viable economic model that took into consideration all of the factors, I'd bet LL would at least give a listen to it.  I know I wouldn't complain one bit if my personal overall costs in SL were reduced.

Way back when LL looked at a lot of different economic models before settling on the one we have.  Any one familiar with the history of SL knows this.  Maybe one of the other models could have worked.  We may never know.  What is certain is that this one has worked pretty good.  And given how "greedy" LL is, if one of the other Models would work better, I'd bet the number crunchers at LL would jump on it.

Oh, and as a P.S., from the SIM counts you need to subtract all the water SIMs like Blake Sea and other places that LL doesn't charge anyone a penny to use.  You can reduce total SIM revenues by that amount.

 

 

[Pie Serendipity]

SL is not a game.

Until you interact with someone who treats it as a game.

Then it becomes a game.

It's like real life in that respect.

[Syo Emerald]

But most asian free2play games are just **bleep**ty...if you don't want giant boobs and girls fighting in highheels. Also most of them focus too strong on grinding. They haven't learned yet, that you can't catch the european and american market with that. In my opinion the best games are still not those asian free2play ones.

Also....am I the only one who noticed the OP wants a 8 hours mentiance for SL every week? Thats the worst thing they could do.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Syo Emerald wrote:

Also....am I the only one who noticed the OP wants a 8 hours mentiance for SL every week? Thats the worst thing they could do.

---

OP is bizzonkers, thread is hilarious.

If the OP wants progress maybe they should take an interest in what's actually changing within SL. Or maybe she'd have preferred to join SL during 2003-2007, when the grid did close reasonably often.

Somehow though, I don't think she'd 'get' it.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

OP is bizzonkers, thread is hilarious.

---

You missed the one where the OP went completely off his rocker, called me a laundry list of bad (albeit, rather amusing) names and rage quit because I ruined his thread.

And a nice time was had by all.

...Dres

[Syo Emerald]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Freya Mokusei wrote:

OP is bizzonkers, thread is hilarious.

---

You missed the one where the OP went completely off his rocker, called me a laundry list of bad (albeit, rather amusing) names and rage quit because I ruined

his

thread.

And a nice time was had by all.

...Dres

---

Look at his profile and what else threads he had in the forum...says it all, if you ask me.

[Dresden Ceriano]

His inworld IM to me was just as amusing... I feel sorry for his SL wife and so-called family.

...Dres

[Sassy Romano]

---

Orca Flotta wrote:

 never noticed the introduction of shadows, SSA, pathfinding, materials, mesh, voice, windlight???

 

---

Sincere apologies for picking on this Orca as you highlight some "changes" but stepping aside:-

SSA?  Has this really changed people's experience?  Mine is worse.  I hardly suffered bakefail, it's almost a daily experience now and I can wait up to a minute at times for a clothing change.  Worst is that during that time, there's no UI feedback other than my inventory telling me that i'm apparently wearing something.  Nope, no progress for  me here.

Pathfinding?  Where can I go to see awesome use of this?  Not just one sim or a handful of people using it now and again because it's a new toy, been there done that.  I mean, where is it being used to populate SL such that it's making it more immersive?  It's not.  No progress for me here.

Materials!  This might just fly but wait, how many people have advanced lighting enabled as standard?  Darn, it's *probable* that the vast majority won't (I do) but overall until that happens, it's a bit of a white elephant other than for those who can use advanced lighting and appreciate the new shiny (pun intended).

Voice.  Just another voice system, not seeing the real advance here to be honest, never use it.

Windlight.  I just about remember pre-windlight and now we have nice skies and pretty water.  Ok.  

And finally... MESH.  Just how long is it going to take for Linden Lab to take the stick out of their ass and realise that the biggest consumer market for mesh in SL is clothing and it's the one most desperately in need of the deformer, that has been gifted to them?  Two years on and the most significant change for mesh hasn't happened.  Nope, I can't applaud Linden Lab on this topic at this point.

[Orca Flotta]

You're right on almost all accounts, except that SSA thing. Yes, in a busy environment I gotta wait a while before I see all the avtatars fully dressed (Protip for voyeurs: if you wanna watch some nekkies just TP over to Collabor 88). But before SSA I had to wait much longer. Also when I rezz myself in world the initial declouding happens way way faster than ever before. It's a good thing.

Anyhoo, my point comes now: all the things I mentioned just from the top of my head. Of course not all are great or a progress in most people's minds. Like you I still don't have the foggiest idea what pathfinding is, I never used voice and have no intent to do so. But tthey are all changes! Updates of the system. Exactly the stuff OP misses so badly.

[Madelaine McMasters]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Pamela Galli wrote:

---

Madelaine McMasters wrote:

---

I've read that around 2010/11, LL's revenues were estimated to be about $75 million/yr. Some time ago I did a napkin calculation that put it around $60 million now (20K sims @ $250/mo), and I expect it's still declining. Activision, purveyors of World of Warcraft and Call of Duty, anticipates $4.31 billion in revenue for FY 2013.

---

Good estimate. According to Tyche Shepherd:

 

• Monthly Tier Estimates - Private Estates c.US$3.975 Million, Mainland c.US$0.871 Million

 

 

---

Interestingly people forget that the SIM servers are not the only servers required for SL to work.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Server_architecture

There are a lot of Servers in addition to the SIM servers required for SL to work.

Then also consider all the protocol systems:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Protocol

 

It's real easy to forget that stuff going on in the back ground.  So if all someone sees is the cost of an Individual SIM when figuring out that LL is "making a killing," they are missing all the other stuff needed to make life on a SIM work.

---------------------------

In order to have "Your World, Your Imagination," you have to have 'virtual real estate' for people to build that world on.  And all of it needs to be paid for somehow.

The economic model LL chose was and is based on 'land ownership.'  Some how it needed to be established who gets to build where.  What other economic model would work in establishing who gets to build where and on how many sq meters of virtual land would they get to build on?

If there is anything unfair about the system, it's not the cost of a SIM.  It's the fact that all the free accounts get to enjoy the benefits of SL on the hard earned dollars of those who pay for the land.  Maybe what I really need to do is start telling my friends that if they want to visit me at my SL home that they need to start paying me for the privilege of coming over.

Maybe there is another Economic Model that could work for SL.  But you just can't blindly say that the Cost of a SIM is too high.  You have to think in terms of the entire picture.  If someone could come up with a viable economic model that took into consideration all of the factors, I'd bet LL would at least give a listen to it.  I know I wouldn't complain one bit if my personal overall costs in SL were reduced.

Way back when LL looked at a lot of different economic models before settling on the one we have.  Any one familiar with the history of SL knows this.  Maybe one of the other models could have worked.  We may never know.  What is certain is that this one has worked pretty good.  And given how "greedy" LL is, if one of the other Models would work better, I'd bet the number crunchers at LL would jump on it.

Oh, and as a P.S., from the SIM counts you need to subtract all the water SIMs like Blake Sea and other places that LL doesn't charge anyone a penny to use.  You can reduce total SIM revenues by that amount.

 

 

---

All the abandoned mainland isn't generating revenue either, so my $60M estimate could be too high. But the 20K sim claim (don't remember where I got that) might take that all into account. Dunno.

I've no idea how many servers LL has. With 4-16 sims/server (maybe more as server peformance climbs the Moore's law curve and sim performance does not) it's probably a lot less than 20K.

Another way to look at things is revenue/employee. I think LL has about 200 employees, so with that $60M in revenue I estimated, they're getting $300K in revenue per employee. The average for the NASDAQ 100 (as of 2009) is $500K.

[Solar Legion]

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

---

Orca Flotta wrote:

 never noticed the introduction of shadows, SSA, pathfinding, materials, mesh, voice, windlight???

 

---

Sincere apologies for picking on this Orca as you highlight some "changes" but stepping aside:-

SSA?  Has this really changed people's experience?  Mine is worse.  I hardly suffered bakefail, it's almost a daily experience now and I can wait up to a minute at times for a clothing change.  Worst is that during that time, there's no UI feedback other than my inventory telling me that i'm apparently wearing something.  Nope, no progress for  me here.

Turn off HTTP fetching for non avatar textures - for some, this overloads their network.

Pathfinding?  Where can I go to see awesome use of this?  Not just one sim or a handful of people using it now and again because it's a new toy, been there done that.  I mean, where is it being used to populate SL such that it's making it more immersive?  It's not.  No progress for me here.

Pathfinding is still quite new, along with the content creator access to the script calls that made Linden Realms work.

Materials!  This might just fly but wait, how many people have advanced lighting enabled as standard?  Darn, it's *probable* that the vast majority won't (I do) but overall until that happens, it's a bit of a white elephant other than for those who can use advanced lighting and appreciate the new shiny (pun intended).

There are quite a few content creators that have yet to adopt Windlight friendly practices, let alone support for the Advanced Lighting Engine. Materials? Only likely to be used by the 'elite' types who like to pretend they are the best thing since sliced bread.

Voice.  Just another voice system, not seeing the real advance here to be honest, never use it.

Built in voice systems have become a staple of the bigger names in MMO/VW systems. Few use a host like Vivox however. If a friend of mine has a Second Life account and all other Voice venues/programs wig out for them ... I have actually found that Second Life's voice system will remain stable.

Windlight.  I just about remember pre-windlight and now we have nice skies and pretty water.  Ok.  

Windlight encompasses a bit more than just the skies and water: You said you use the Advanced Lighting Engine constantly? In order to use that, you must first ensure that Basic Shaders and Atmospheric Shaders are turned on. Neither of those options existed prior to Windlight.

And finally... MESH.  Just how long is it going to take for Linden Lab to take the stick out of their ass and realise that the biggest consumer market for mesh in SL is clothing and it's the one most desperately in need of the deformer, that has been gifted to them?  Two years on and the most significant change for mesh hasn't happened.  Nope, I can't applaud Linden Lab on this topic at this point.

Mesh was never intended to be used for clothing items and the deformer is a cludge fix at best. On this one, I am going to be a bit rude: It is their playground, they make the rules and decide what code they will and will not include.

---

 

[Sassy Romano]

---

Orca Flotta wrote:

You're right on almost all accounts, except that SSA thing. Yes, in a busy environment I gotta wait a while before I see all the avtatars fully dressed (Protip for voyeurs: if you wanna watch some nekkies just TP over to Collabor 88). But before SSA I had to wait much longer. Also when I rezz myself in world the initial declouding happens way way faster than ever before. It's a good thing.

Anyhoo, my point comes now: all the things I mentioned just from the top of my head. Of course not all are great or a progress in most people's minds. Like you I still don't have the foggiest idea what pathfinding is, I never used voice and have no intent to do so. But tthey are all changes! Updates of the system. Exactly the stuff OP misses so badly.

---

I honestly wish my experience with SSA was better.  I can see render delays of up to a minute at times when i'm the only person visible and the only person in the region and the region isn't lagged.  *shrugs*  It's just not an overall win.

Pathfinding was brought in if I recall under an initiative from Rod to allow us to make characters that would roam and make SL more populated with game type characters.  Fine but did we need it or ask for it?  The bigger problem is that since there's no way to properly animate a non avatar character outside of scripts which are subject to timing issues, it just doesn't work.  We have one NPC character that roams my shop but the shop is on a homestead and he slides about more than walks and that's just ONE character when the region is empty.  It's just not complete and i'm not excited about seeing plywood cubes learn their route through a sim as a demonstration of pathfinding.

They are changes though and as I said, I didn't want to take an issue with your statements, you're quite correct.  It's just that LL have given us stuff we didn't ask for, probably didn't need and have completely missed absolutely vital things that we do need and still refuse to actively engage about them.

[Sassy Romano]

---

Solar Legion wrote:

Mesh was never intended to be used for clothing items and the deformer is a cludge fix at best. On this one, I am going to be a bit rude: It is their playground, they make the rules and decide what code they will and will not include.

---

 

---

I won't pick up on the others as this is the significant one.  Yes it's their playground of course but they completely missed what the community wanted to do in that case.  Did they really not expect that creators would use mesh for clothing?  If they honestly didn't think it was going to happen then that itself is testimony to how connected the Lab and the user base requirements are don't you think?  Right now there is a grand total of zero developers assigned to the deformer project and it's their choice to pull scorn their way.

The evidence stands that LL is not engaged and not providing what the community (paying customers) want and that is their prerogative just as it's our to use or not use the service as provided.  Is concurrency going up?  Are LL still active in development or more interested in pushing out iPad apps?

 

[Perrie Juran]

---

Solar Legion wrote:

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

---

Orca Flotta wrote:

 never noticed the introduction of shadows, SSA, pathfinding, materials, mesh, voice, windlight???

 

---

Sincere apologies for picking on this Orca as you highlight some "changes" but stepping aside:-

SSA?  Has this really changed people's experience?  Mine is worse.  I hardly suffered bakefail, it's almost a daily experience now and I can wait up to a minute at times for a clothing change.  Worst is that during that time, there's no UI feedback other than my inventory telling me that i'm apparently wearing something.  Nope, no progress for  me here.

Turn off HTTP fetching for non avatar textures - for some, this overloads their network.

Pathfinding?  Where can I go to see awesome use of this?  Not just one sim or a handful of people using it now and again because it's a new toy, been there done that.  I mean, where is it being used to populate SL such that it's making it more immersive?  It's not.  No progress for me here.

Pathfinding is still quite new, along with the content creator access to the script calls that made Linden Realms work.

Materials!  This might just fly but wait, how many people have advanced lighting enabled as standard?  Darn, it's *probable* that the vast majority won't (I do) but overall until that happens, it's a bit of a white elephant other than for those who can use advanced lighting and appreciate the new shiny (pun intended).

There are quite a few content creators that have yet to adopt Windlight friendly practices, let alone support for the Advanced Lighting Engine. Materials? Only likely to be used by the 'elite' types who like to pretend they are the best thing since sliced bread.

Voice.  Just another voice system, not seeing the real advance here to be honest, never use it.

Built in voice systems have become a staple of the bigger names in MMO/VW systems. Few use a host like Vivox however. If a friend of mine has a Second Life account and all other Voice venues/programs wig out for them ... I have actually found that Second Life's voice system will remain stable.

Windlight.  I just about remember pre-windlight and now we have nice skies and pretty water.  Ok.  

Windlight encompasses a bit more than just the skies and water: You said you use the Advanced Lighting Engine constantly? In order to use that, you must first ensure that Basic Shaders and Atmospheric Shaders are turned on. Neither of those options existed prior to Windlight.

And finally... MESH.  Just how long is it going to take for Linden Lab to take the stick out of their ass and realise that the biggest consumer market for mesh in SL is clothing and it's the one most desperately in need of the deformer, that has been gifted to them?  Two years on and the most significant change for mesh hasn't happened.  Nope, I can't applaud Linden Lab on this topic at this point.

Mesh was never intended to be used for clothing items and the deformer is a cludge fix at best. On this one, I am going to be a bit rude: It is their playground, they make the rules and decide what code they will and will not include.

---

 

---

Want to add a bit of my two cents on this.

Some things I see LL doing I feel are with a view to the Future.  Pathfinding is one of them.

Pathfinding I think will still have limited use adoption for specific situations, mainly roleplay.

Server Side Appearance is another.  While it has present benefits I suspect it will also have future benefits as far as scalability and may also have a major impact on fixing SIM crossing issues.  I do know it is also currently causing some issues for some people, but those are mostly system related on their end and in a few instances ISP caused where ISP's are modifying packets as they move through their systems.  Yes, it is documented that some ISP's are doing that.

Mesh is a whole subject of it's own.  Here I think it was failure of LL to realize how much people would embrace Mesh clothes.  As I understand/remember, during it's development the need for a 'deformer' was brought up and shot down or ignored by LL.  This, similar to some of the problems with CHUI, was a case of not listening to the Residents.  In both cases there was a lot of not understanding how people use SL, not understanding their customers.

Lastly, Materials.  When all is said and done, Materials is going to have very limited use because they have a drastic effect on Land Impact.  See This Thread (pops) and especially the JIRA linked in it and Oz Linden's comments in that JIRA.

For whatever they are worth, my two cents.

 

[Sassy Romano]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Want to add a bit of my two cents on this.

Some things I see LL doing I feel are with a view to the Future.  Pathfinding is one of them.

Pathfinding I think will still have limited use adoption for specific situations, mainly roleplay.

Server Side Appearance is another.  While it has present benefits I suspect it will also have future benefits as far as scalability and may also have a major impact on fixing SIM crossing issues.  

 

---

How do you see pathfinding as helping in roleplay scenarios?  I'd agree if there were an efficient way to animate a non player character but there isn't.  As such it's just about moving boxes and maybe vehicles about.  This is why I asked if anyone knows of a good (not just experimental) but a good example of pathfinding being used.

SSA and scalability for the future.  Is SL growing then?

[Coby Foden]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

---

Orca Flotta wrote:

 never noticed the introduction of shadows, SSA, pathfinding, materials, mesh, voice, windlight???

 

---

Materials!  This might just fly but wait, how many people have advanced lighting enabled as standard?  Darn, it's *probable* that the vast majority won't (I do) but overall until that happens, it's a bit of a white elephant other than for those who can use advanced lighting and appreciate the new shiny (pun intended).

---

Actually it may well be that there are a lot of people having advanced lighting on. ALM is not very demanding (like shadows for example).  In Linden Lab viewer ALM is automatically on by default in computers which can handle graphics setting between Mid and High. Some people might have erroneously thought that ALM requires Ultra graphics settings and some "gaming" computer. Luckily the situation is not so.

 

[Sassy Romano]

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Coby Foden wrote:

---

Actually it may well be that there are a lot of people having advanced lighting on. ALM is not very demanding (like shadows for example).  In Linden Lab viewer ALM is automatically on by default in computers which can handle graphics setting between Mid and High. Some people might have erroneously thought that ALM requires Ultra graphics settings and some "gaming" computer. Luckily the situation is not so.

 

---

I'm sure that when I last tried it, it became a selectable option at that point but wasn't on by default.  Anyway, the last time I polled my customers informally, the resounding majority did not have it enabled.  Time will tell.  The thread that Perrie provided about the L.I. issue was interesting though.

[Solar Legion]

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

---

Solar Legion wrote:

Mesh was never intended to be used for clothing items and the deformer is a cludge fix at best. On this one, I am going to be a bit rude: It is their playground, they make the rules and decide what code they will and will not include.

---

 

---

I won't pick up on the others as this is the significant one.  Yes it's their playground of course but they completely missed what the community wanted to do in that case.  Did they really not expect that creators would use mesh for clothing?  If they honestly didn't think it was going to happen then that itself is testimony to how connected the Lab and the user base requirements are don't you think?  Right now there is a grand total of zero developers assigned to the deformer project and it's their choice to pull scorn their way.

The evidence stands that LL is not engaged and not providing what the community (paying customers) want and that is their prerogative just as it's our to use or not use the service as provided.  Is concurrency going up?  Are LL still active in development or more interested in pushing out iPad apps?

 

---

Before tackling your first paragraph .... Actually, the evidence shows that users have a proclivity to use functions and features in a manner which is outside of the design and intention from the pint of implementation. Nearly every new feature/function that could be abused - has been.

Now then ... Linden Lab did not "miss" what "the community" wanted to do with mesh - they outright ignored it in favor of their own design specifications, which were already well underway by the time we users heard of it. Mesh, like Sculpties, was intended for props (be they attachments or not), buildings and non-human avatar component creation. Users had already repusposed Sculpties for the clothing department - they saw no need to scrap their implementation for mesh and incorporate it as yet another 'fashion' tool.

Adding in my own experience with mesh thus far: Yep, there are some nice bits of mesh clothing out there, all of which have already had a cludge fix applied to them to make them work with the Second Life Avatar Skeleton, a skeleton which is in no way compatible with industry standard mesh rigging.

Their implementation was perfectly fine for what they had intended it be used for - even non-human avatar creators could get around the issues by mixing well designed mesh in with very well made sculpties. And they have.

The deformer? It's a cludge fix for a cludge fix. The real solution, if Linden Lab wanted to really allow their original mesh implementation to be compatible with normal rigging and allow it to properly alter itself accordingly: Scrap the current avatar rigging skeleton and use an industry standard skeleton instead.

But that would break a lot of content.

So, instead of using a cludge to help fix the cludge or breaking a whole mess of content ... They're sticking with ignoring complaints concerning the use of mesh outside of their design parameters.

And honestly? The user base is very lucky that Linden Lab listened at all in the past when users has issues with content which abused functions and features which were never really intended to be used the way we use them now.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Want to add a bit of my two cents on this.

Some things I see LL doing I feel are with a view to the Future.  Pathfinding is one of them.

Pathfinding I think will still have limited use adoption for specific situations, mainly roleplay.

Server Side Appearance is another.  While it has present benefits I suspect it will also have future benefits as far as scalability and may also have a major impact on fixing SIM crossing issues.  

 

---

How do you see pathfinding as helping in roleplay scenarios?  I'd agree if there were an efficient way to animate a non player character but there isn't.  As such it's just about moving boxes and maybe vehicles about.  This is why I asked if anyone knows of a good (not just experimental) but a good example of pathfinding being used.

 

---

I don't know of anyplace Pathfinding is currently in use for roleplay.  I just know this comment from the original Blog post:

"Newly created functions such as “pursue,” “patrol,” “wander,” “evade,” and go to a specified point — all of which are particularly useful for pet, NPC and enemy behavior — will allow for non player movements and behaviors never before possible in Second Life."

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Take-a-Sneak-Peek-at-the-Pathfinding-Experiments-Being-Conducted/ba-p/1386511

 

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Server Side Appearance is another.  While it has present benefits I suspect it will also have future benefits as far as scalability and may also have a major impact on fixing SIM crossing issues.  

 

---

 

SSA and scalability for the future.  Is SL growing then?

---

 

It is necessary if SL is to grow again.

 

eta: clarity

[Perrie Juran]

---

Solar Legion wrote:

---

The deformer? It's a cludge fix for a cludge fix. The real solution, if Linden Lab wanted to really allow their original mesh implementation to be compatible with normal rigging and allow it to properly alter itself accordingly: Scrap the current avatar rigging skeleton and use an industry standard skeleton instead.

But that would break 

a lot

of content.

---

I've no doubt that the so called "Avatar 2.0" would be a huge undertaking.  Especially now. 

It would require system changes that go much deeper than most realize.

At least this is my guess. 

What we really don't know is IF it can be done without ruining a lot of present content.  I hear pretty knowledgeable people (not just gum bumpers) say things on both sides of this issue.

It's one of those things where, to borrow from a commercial, "Only your hair dresser knows for sure."

[Sassy Romano]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

I don't know of anyplace Pathfinding is currently in use for roleplay.  I just know this comment from the original Blog post:

"

Newly created functions such as

“

pursue,” “patrol,” “wander,” “evade,” and go to a specified point — all of which are particularly useful for pet, NPC and enemy behavior — will allow for non player movements and behaviors never before possible in Second Life.

"

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Take-a-Sneak-Peek-at-the-Pathfinding-Experiments-Being-Conducted/ba-p/1386511

 

---

Yes as I said, the issue is that the script commands exist to mimic the location behaviour but there's just no good smooth way to animate an NPC!  Thus watching plywood cubes evade or follow people isn't that conducive to good role play that i've seen.

I've created one using the resource from Lenis Pinden, his example is shown here running about. 

  It looks great and all credit to Lenis but the reality is that in no way does it mimic any other NPC that you'd find in a "game" which is what Rod Humble wanted to bring with this initiative.  A single character created as above in a homestead, slides and lags.  It's not the pathfinding that doesn't work, there just is no further support beyond moving a box around and that's why i'm asking if anyone, anyone at all knows of anywhere where pathfinding is a good demonstration of how this brings value to role play. 

It certainly wasn't a challenge to you to provide an example Perrie.  We'll see if SL grows again.  :matte-motes-tongue:

[Coby Foden]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

I'm sure that when I last tried it, it became a selectable option at that point but wasn't on by default.

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I see. When I installed the latest released Linden Lab viewer the graphics settings by default were between High and Ultra, and the ALM was on by default. And in my computer ALM has very minimal effect to fps.

Then I have heard some people, having slower computers, saying that when they turn ALM on there is noticeable effect on fps. Did they accidentally turn on shadows too?. But that on, in slowish computer, would turn the world into a useless slide show.

[Perrie Juran]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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I don't know of anyplace Pathfinding is currently in use for roleplay.  I just know this comment from the original Blog post:

"

Newly created functions such as

“

pursue,” “patrol,” “wander,” “evade,” and go to a specified point — all of which are particularly useful for pet, NPC and enemy behavior — will allow for non player movements and behaviors never before possible in Second Life.

"

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Take-a-Sneak-Peek-at-the-Pathfinding-Experiments-Being-Conducted/ba-p/1386511

 

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Yes as I said, the issue is that the script commands exist to mimic the location behaviour but there's just no good smooth way to animate an NPC!  Thus watching plywood cubes evade or follow people isn't that conducive to good role play that i've seen.

I've created one using the resource from Lenis Pinden, his example is shown here running about. 

  It looks great and all credit to Lenis but the reality is that in no way does it mimic any other NPC that you'd find in a "game" which is what Rod Humble wanted to bring with this initiative.  A single character created as above in a homestead, slides and lags.  It's not the pathfinding that doesn't work, there just is no further support beyond moving a box around and that's why i'm asking if anyone, anyone at all knows of anywhere where pathfinding is a good demonstration of how this brings value to role play. 

It certainly wasn't a challenge to you to provide an example Perrie.  We'll see if SL grows again.  :matte-motes-tongue:

---

Cool YouTube.  Thanks.

Really, my knowledge of Pathfinding comes totally from that Blog post.  I was really curious about it when I saw it and watched the Video and remembered the comments.  My thoughts then are pretty much the same as now.  It's of limited interest to a niche group in SL.  Nothing wrong with that other than I felt there are more important things to be devoting development resources to.

I did have an interesting experience relating to pathfinding.  I wont name the creator but I have a very old pet dog in SL.  It was 'cutting edge' when I got it years ago but now looks really, well kind of clunky.  I got it pre-sculpties and mesh.

I went to the Creators Dog Park to check out what they had now and will have to say the new dogs look awesome.  But the price had almost doubled, close to $5,000L now.  I made a comment to the helper at the SIM, "Wow, these have gotten really expensive!"  I was really surprised.  Her response was, "Well yes they cost more, they are more advanced now including being Pathfinding enabled."

When I replied that I had no interest in Pathfinding she began extolling it's benefits, especially how it reduces lag inducing collisions.  I do remember thinking to myself, "Yeah, like my one little dog that will spend 95% of its time sleeping in its doggie bed was going to lag bomb my entire SIM."

Well, as much as I would have liked a new doggie, I didn't want one $5,000L worth bad. 

 

[Jandid Harcourt]

I am glad I left this post. Some of you are really obnoxious. I came to this post to have a discussion, only to have people hating on everything I said, telling me I didnt know what I was talking about when they also do not have any of the Linden Labs facts right in front of there faces.

 

Sadly I did get frustrated, I figured here on SL forum we would have a little bit more maturity than lets say a WoW forum? But clearly the grown men that play this game are just as immature as the kids on other MMO's. Why were my previous forum posts even brought into this? Because you are just trying to be an absolute jerkoff for no reason? If you didnt like what I had to say, you coulda moved on. Instead obnoxious baby **bleep** was portrayed by dres, and the other people with thousands of forum posts.

 

Some of you made good points, brought up alot of things I didnt know. It would of been cooler to know these facts rather than have these grown men troll an SL forum post, but regardless I got what information I needed. Thanks for the people who did have the right things to say, who wanted to clarify things for me, and not be an absolute c u next tuesday.

[Meldina Ashbourne]

I had to comment, I wanted to keep quiet and just watch this story unfold but some of the responses astound me.

First off, go ahead - pre type your generic responses, but some of you people are absolutely ridiculous.

 

FIRSTLY - I am the one that has been here for 6 years, I joined in 2007 while SL was still somewhat fresh and people were still exploring the possibilities of what this 'dynamic' world had to offer, and you know what? Yeah - Just like YOU... and YOU over there.. it hooked me too.    I have stayed here for 6 years, without support from linden labs when people take their harassment TOO far and start to bring in RL to it.   Yet despite all the bad, and all the crap, I stuck around... I'm not sure why - But I think it has to do with the fact that this is one of the ONLY worlds like this.

So yeah.. I can see some arguments about how "SL CAN'T RUN LIKE OTHER MMO'S BECAUSE OF DYNAMIC EVER CHANGING CONTENT NOT BEING LIKE OTHER MMO'S" I'm WELL aware of that.

But let's do a bit of discussion, like adults (if that's possible...) Let's take into account..... Blue Mars..... Stepped in as a possible competitor against SL, the graphics and rendering were incredible, sure it didn't get very far because everyone was in SL in an already established user created world, nobody wanted to start over.   But if they could improve their graphics yet offer the EXACT SAME service, why can't LL upgrade their graphics to do the same? It'd still be dynamic, obviously there's going to always be lag issues, but I guess the longer you run on prehistoric servers that's always going to happen.

As for BUYING LINDEN and "NOBODY IS FORCING YOU TO" Actually? Unless you dedicate your entire RL to running and managing and promoting a successfull in game business? You really ARE forced to upload L$ because if you want anything in game, there is NO WHERE to make ANY MONEY to get it... You have to buy linden in order to improve your life... with the ammount of people uploading linden for this reason.     Do you not think LL would make more money if they lowered the outrageous cost of LINDEN? And that more people would not sign up, and purchase through them to make these linden purchases if it wasn't so hefty!? 

Unless of course, you work as a stripper and the club is semi established you can net yourself 10k-12k a week, flaunting your pixel body out to thirsty people willing to throw their money at a digital rendering of boobies.   

I'm not a business major, I don't ever want to be - But I do have some common sense, and some of these posts just really seem like a lot of people that really do just want to jump their post count, as you can see by mine - I don't really care.   

The fact is in a game that is over 10 years old, there should be some form of upgrade, server, developmental, congratulations you just added mesh 2-3 years ago... now what? There is NO advancement in sight.    ONce upon a time, SL used to go down on wednesdays for SCHEDULED maintenance... now it just goes down whenever they want, and the people that dedicate their RL's to this game that rely on it for money get to sit by and wonder when they're able to get on, how is that fair to them? 

The thing that makes SL so unique compared to other online games is the fact you CAN start a career in it, some people very easily survive in RL by the money they make in SL.   Which is awesome.   And I GREATLY commend them for the ability to do so.    What bothers me is why the company that can provide people this, doesn't care about keeping their environment up to date with todays technology.  It very rarely even cares about protecting these specific people.  You can't get help if you try to contact support, you can't get help if you contact them directly from their support line, unless something happens where RL LAWS can be impacted into the scenario that's the ONLY time you get a reaction out of it... that's not fair.   People are mean, and to sit there and deny you haven't been victimized by another resident in SL and had no options, because 'blocking and muting' only goes so far once they create 300 alts cause they're allowed to to continue the harassment.   People have taken their LIVES over situations like this, that could have been resolved by an actual in game management team designed to deal with specific situations LIKE this... They don't have to answer every ticket filled with butthurt, but to answer people pleading for help? Would that TRULY be such a bad thing? 

As for "Simulators" costing so much? Yeah, Okay - I can see SOME of the reasoning behind this, Server costs, Server Space.......Things that the user should be paying for, why is the USER paying for OFFICE space? when it's very obvious that the money that does come in from all these things goes to the company itself? Why doesn't some of that ridiculous income go to paying their employees? which I wonder what they actually do at the office besides answer phones and say "Sorry we can't help you" or occasionally roll back a sim.    You can't sit here, and say they don't make money - They make PROBABLY more money than most other 'free to play' games out there.    Yet those games are still able to remain funded, probably because they have user support, and a team behind the game that cares about the people that do immerse in their world.    If a sim costs 230-300-330 a month, and some people run 92+ sims for a real estate business that is an income of 21,160 to 30,360 dollars per that individual person that gets paid out in monthly arrears to keep these servers running.     That's just ONE person/company which you know just as well as I do, normally run by one person working to make money.     Sure, they might make more than that back with tiers, maybe win a little extra by it, but that is A LOT of money for one person to invest.   Not to mention the individual people, who pay the actual simple price for a sim.   What about those that LIVE in the sims, that have to upload linden - to pay for the land that people pay the lindens for...... Obviously they get taxed for it, so linden makes money... while they're making money.    There's no excuse you can pop out that would justify not going somewhere with advancement in this game.

Not a single post in here has stated that SL is a Bad game - The fact is, it's not a bad game, it's simply in need of change.    EVERY environment whether static or dynamic, has to change eventually to accomodate the future.    SL is capable of SO much more, and you can't deny that either.    It needs a team behind it willing to push it further, or let's face it - Eventually it's going to lose itself in the turmoil of the future, and it will crash and die out, and all those people that DO rely on this game for an RL income, are going to lose that income.... and be left as a statistic...