Secondlife Clubs I have been to.

[Metalcoldreaper]

I just thought i'd post this and not mention names/ Clubs and let people decide.

I have recently enjoyed several clubs and recently i was told to be quiet over voice (I am not a child i am an adult being told to shut up due to -reason here-) So the staff of this club were being rather rude. I took this complaint to the Complaints manager (Apparently) And this is the response i got summarised

 

'This is a BUSINESS, You do not have any rights here, you just have a privledge to be here. If a staff member gets a complaint they can tell you to be quiet which i find as more than fair.'

 

Now i have had to straighten this guy up, A business, in general is something buys or sells something to consumers. So anyone inside is not a GUESt but a Consumer, paytron, or w.e have you. This club has its own Marketplace, It sells land on its sim, has DJ's, dancers etc, anything you can tip. But in this respect i do not have any right to talk if i want to?

This is something i find quite appauling, i am not trying to be a dick or anything swaggering in and saying "I have the right to do what i want" i understand there are rules, but if people are talking, and i want to talk as well, I do think i would have the right to? I dont know if LL has any policies about sims that do this or not but to call yourself a business, but call anyone inside a "Guest" is a bit.."eh?" since if people were guests within your sim then wouldnt it be more of a community hub?

I am waiting to hear back from the clubs higher ups but till then i do not agree with how i was treated.

[Frawmusl]

I am sorry that happend to you! There are some places in SL that don't have the best manners towards everyone, but its best to just move on and not let harsh words or arguments get to you. I wouldn't waste your time on them, anyhow, I hope you find another club you enjoy!

[Griffin Ceawlin]

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Metalcoldreaper wrote:

I have recently enjoyed several clubs and recently i was told to be quiet over voice (I am not a child i am an adult being told to shut up due to -reason here-)

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Interesting that you left out the reason.

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'If a staff member gets a complaint they can tell you to be quiet which i find as more than fair.'

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Ah, so somebody registered a complaint (about you) to staff.

ETA: Hit post by mistake:

Someone complained about your simply talking? In a civilized manner?

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 A business, in general is something buys or sells something to consumers. So anyone inside is not a GUESt but a Consumer, paytron, or w.e have you. ... but call anyone inside a "Guest" is a bit.."eh?"

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Many places of business (in RL, restaurants in particular) refer to patrons (customers) as "guests". Why do you have an issue with that?

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'You do not have any rights here, you just have a privledge to be here.'

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He's right. And it's your right to not patronize that establishment.

 

 

[Jadeclaw Denfu]

Metalcoldreaper wrote: ""and recently i was told to be quiet over voice (I am not a child i am an adult being told to shut up due to -reason here-)""

Unless you were constantly blabbering away on voice chat, could it be, that an attachment you were wearing,
was constantly spamming the local chat? There are still programmers, that haven't heard of llOwnerSay,
using llSay or even llShout to communicate with the owner of the attachment. In that case, the staff was
right to tell you to be quiet.

 

[Blaz Neuman]

And most clubs don't allow voice... but it would be stupid ot let it on in the land.

 

You have to behave in any public place. You can't be seen in a rl shop shouting and throwing stuff around. Being a customer doesn't allow you to do everything.

In your case the problem is we don't know what you did exactly. Some club owners or managers are a bit abusive, some club goers are a bit exasperating, that's it.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

First if the club allows voice they have the right to ask you to tone it down or be even be quiet if

• the volume of your voice is a lot louder than other voices. 
• there is RL background noise coming through your mic
• there is a lot of static or any feedback coming from your mic
• what you saying is considered inappropriate to the venue

You have no way to know how others are hearing you as you can't hear yourself.  If they were getting complaints from others about your voice than you probably had one of the above problems. Most people don't want to hear voices that overwhelm the music and they sure don't want to listen to a bunch of static or kids crying in the background as your television sound comes over the mic and your wife yells at you to get off the computer.  They are there to listen to the music and not you. 

Second, unless you own the land and pay the bills you are there at the pleasure of the owner  and you have no 'rights'.  The TOS states that a landowner can set any rules they want,  They or their appointed agents also have a right to eject and ban you for any reason at all or no reason.  Since I doubt you paid to get in your are not a customer or consumer but a guest.  Even if you paid to get in if you are interfering with the enjoyment of the other guests they have a right to correct the situation.

Lastly, I suspect that you have left out a lot from your story.  You were probably asked to be quiet and didn't like it and refused and may have gotten rude and obnoxious.  If this happens again to you anywhere, then instead of acting like a child, ask politely what the specific problem is.  It may be something you can correct and then resume talking.

You may not be aware of it but clubs are money pits that make no money for their owners,  Clubs exist because the people that own them enjoy having them and are willing to pay money out of their own pocket to entertain you.  Even if they have rentals or get donations to the house that no where near covers the expenses. A typical club cost the owner thousands of lindens a week.  Keep that in mind when you think you have any rights in a club by virtue of the fact your brought your pixels there.

 

[Hermione Lefevre]

Sometimes its not what you you say but how you say it..if you are asked in a nice and respectful way and not like you are a naughty kid you probably either comply or leave.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

The OP didn't say that the tone of the host was rude,  He objected to being told to be quiet and said " (I am not a child I am an adult being told to shut up due to -reason here-)"  that is not a quote of what he was told but his reaction,  I seriously doubt he was told to shut up.

When he talked to the complaint manager he was mad.  The fact that he thinks he had to 'straighten this guy up' told me he wasn't being very respectful and probably was in a rant about his 'rights'.

From the whole tone of his post it is obvious that he is trying to gain sympathy because someone told him the facts and he doesn't like them.  I find it very telling that he didn't put the reason he was asked to be quiet to begin with.

As someone pointed out, he does have one right, not to go there if he doesn't like it.  I'm sure that the club would not object if he stayed away either.

[Melita Magic]

Well, a 'real life' club is also a business, and the people who go there are 'guests.' If you stay in a hotel in real life, you are a 'guest' and yet that too is a place of business. Both places have rules and security staff to enforce them.

However you'd like to think of it - virtual business, real business, role play business - clubs in Second Life are usually much the same. Place of business, with guests and staff.

If you were on voice and you're not part of the entertainment it's similar to someone heckling the comedian or shouting over the singer. If they had mic open to allow a DJ to talk and you talked instead, it probably wasn't what the other guests were hoping to hear. 

It may have been embarrassing to be asked to quiet down, but, your reaction is up to you.

[Pamela Galli]

There seems to be a deeply entrenched inability to tell the difference between something objectionable one is forced to endure, and something objectionable one elects to endure.

There is a HUGE difference. 

Metalcoldreaper, if you do not like how someone runs his own business or land or how they treat you, just DO NOT GO THERE.  You can complain all you like but the fact is that people who pay for the privilege of owning land get to decide how they want to use it; you do not. They get to be a as rude (or not) as they please. 

Yes, it is that simple.

[Dilbert Dilweg]

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Metalcoldreaper wrote:

 (I am not a child i am an adult being told to shut up due to -reason here-)

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Possibly the adult thing to do would be to respecfuly follow the wishes of the person of authority for that venue and if there was a complaint about you, to respecfully inquire about it without all the drama? Maybe findout from them what the problem was and if you did "unknowingly" cause the issue, then appologize and Move on?

Im not saying everyone in charge or running a venue is right all the time. But it seems to me that neither party may be taking the adult paths to success here

 

Ive always made it a point to observe voice rules at any place I enter that has voice enabled. I wish not to interupt what could be going on. .. Each place has their rules and you should make it a point to observe them at ALL places. . Not all venues do things the same and with SL being more of a roll play environment versus real life. You  should really expect a wide range of rules that you need to follow to help the place you visit achive the goals of it's intended build. If a resident cdan not respect dress codes and rules then expect to be repremanded on it. Adult or not. . Yer gonna be told yer out of line

[Blaz Neuman]

I was once ejected from a club without any good reason, really...

 

A dancer in a club suddently decided my av was out of the rules (no animals, when my usual av is a man with a wolf's head and tail, not even a real furry)... I answered her "I'm just a man with a wolf mask on... do you ban masks?" She then switched to "your tail is causing lag"

 

I answered "ok I give up, I'm leaving" and said in the local chat "Ok folks I have to go, appears that I can't have a tail " She ejected me before I had the time to tp.

 

I admit, maybe I should just have gone without a word, but I was there for 3 hours and I had tipped every Dj... I felt a bit upset. And I haven't gone back there, when it was a club I really liked.

[Metalcoldreaper]

Before reading, I have read a few comments of people not reading anything of what i said suggesting i left out details or was being "Childish" or rude. No, If i was allowed to show logs, I would. But i actually read the LL policies. so thanks to hermoine especially on that part for making asumptions of others.

 

Skipped through alot of the replies i got (Wasnt expecting so many in such little time)

 

This is word for word what i was told by the Staff first off

'If your lagging to much might be worth while not to use voice but ok'

I wasnt using any other program or such, and my mic is a bit sensitive, but i was suffering for a slight amount of lag / Crashing viewer and my mic was apparently cutting out. So rather than use any of the tools provided he felt it was needed to tell me to get off voice, which i dont see as fair.

I took this to apparently the "2nd in command" of the club and he told me as i said before that it was a business. Now to refer to something as a business you MUST, Buy, Sell, Or trade. (its a dictionary term.) And i have asked other club owners, and they do not refer to people within their establishments as "Guests" but Paytrons.

If we were guests, we wouldnt be required, or offered at all, to tip or buy anything. The moment you put up tip jars or a market selling items, You have started turning 'guests' into paytrons. And they would have some Equal rights.

 

Everyone else on was talking this isnt about "Hey i am here, i want the right to talk.". everyone else was talking and i wanted to join in, only to be told to keep my mic off. Its an Equal right that i am sure i deserve even Digitally? 

when i took the complaint to the '2nd in command' I was not rude at all, i just said "hey i am having some trouble with some staff members basicly getting told to shut up. i wasnt "Straightening up" anything, i was saying i was being harrassed by the staff. to which i was replied with the business statement said earlier

I think thats all i have to answer since the rest is either BS about me making something up when i cannot legally post any logs without getting my ass banned, Or people assuming that i just was trying to be annoying in voice when i was actually trying to join in like any of you would join into a conversation. "Hey how is everyone" "Your mic is lagging turn it off."

P.S If you intend to write a comment stating that i was being rude in any way or making any of this up, please dont post? I dont mind answering questions you may have and replying in as much detail as i can, but i cannot post logs to "prove" what i said due to LL policies which can get anyone banned if they post Private IM logs.

P.S.S the "Reason here" was put there due to the fact that both times it was something different. Not exactly for "Reason here." I think some of you took that far too literally.

[TristanMercer]

They don't like you, you apparently don't like them.

SOLUTION IS SIMPLE! DO NOT GO BACK.

Coming to the forums to whine and complain will get you no sympathy. As they pay the tier on their land(not you), it is their rules as long as they don't step over the LL ToS. They have a right to deny service to anyone, for whatever reason. Just like Walmart can kick you out of a store and ask you to not return.

 

ETA: You can post what you said in IMs, that is in no way related to disclosure.

[Blaz Neuman]

You sound a bit angry...

[Solar Legion]

And everything else aside: As I said, your issue isn't exactly an isolated incident. Many voice users have had a plethora of issues that result in being asked to shut voice off (be it politely worded or not). All one can truly do is comply, send in a complaint and then try to get to the bottom of what is causing whatever one's issues are.

In your case, at the minimum, it is mic lag. This is someting you may or may not be able to fix - you may need to punch a hole in your firewall for SLVoice.exe, you may need to exempt it from virus/malware scans. You might have your bandwidth turned up too high in the client.

There are many reasons for such a lag.

To go back to my own issue (volume being inconsistent) - It is an issue I have no real control over. No matter what headset I use, this same issue crops up again and again. I have chosen to leave voice disabled unless someone directly requests I communicate with them through it. I then warn them that they may have to fine tune the volume on their own end, as my end is "balanced".

[Czari Zenovka]

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Metalcoldreaper wrote:

 

 

Everyone else on was talking this isnt about "Hey i am here, i want the right to talk.". everyone else was talking and i wanted to join in, only to be told to keep my mic off. Its an Equal right that i am sure i deserve even Digitally? 

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I've seen the concept of "equal rights" bandied about on these forums for years, usually when someone doesn't agree with something they have encountered in SL.

 

Equal rights refers to the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, ratified in 1868, so to begin with "equal rights" pertains to the citizens of the United States.  One of the main purposes of this amendment was to grant citizenship to “all persons born or naturalized in the United States,” which included former slaves recently freed and to forbid states from denying any person "life, liberty or property, without due process of law" or to "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

 

http://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/ourdocs/14thamendment.html

 

You may be a citizen of the United States and Linden Lab is headquartered in the United States but that's about as far as the 14th Amendment applies to this situation.  Then there are non-discrimination laws within the U.S. that cover many issues such as employment policies that forbid discrimination based on race, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability, and sexual orientation.  I don't see your situation covered here either.

 

Freedom of speech, the First Amendment to the Constitution, is a bit closer to your situation, but still does not speak (pardon the pun) to your situation.  Then there is the whole issue of public, ie. government-owned, and private land.  If we think of SL as a "country" (and which country could be debated all day since the residents are from all over the world) then privately owned sims are akin to privately owned land/businesses in the US to continue on your equal rights statement.  In the area of the country in which I live, it is not unusual to see signs in restaurants saying shoes must be worn to enter and be served. (I live near a beach.)  Is that violating someone's "equal rights?"  No, it is the policy of the private owner of that establishment.

 

This reminds me of a forum post years ago by someone who was angry because he had been "kicked out" of the role play section of Avilion, a Medieval sim, because he was wearing an anthropomorphic dragon avatar, complete with codpiece,  To stay consistent with their theme, certain avatar types are not permitted in Avilion; in the case of dragons, the four-footed variety are permitted but not anthros.  As the thread continued, a representative of Avilion joined to provide more info. The person had not been "kicked out" because he was wearing the avatar, but because he had been politely asked to change the avatar if he wished to enter and advised of the rules (which, to my best recollection of the last time I went there, are stated or posted in local chat so they are really hard to miss) and he refused, stating that he was "the only true dragon and the others were imposters."  Instead of either just leaving or changing avatars he ran into the rp area anyway and it was at that point he was "ushered out."

 

He ranted on for quite a few pages on his forum post that he was "the only true dragon" and how unfair Avilion had been.

 

I still think there's a bit more to this story.

ETA:  With all the clubs in SL, I'm not getting why you don't just chalk this off as a bad experience and find another club.

 

[Margareta Loring]

Club owners that do not want voice can disable voice on their parcels.  That's what I do.  Problem solved.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Margareta Loring wrote:

Club owners that do not want voice can disable voice on their parcels.  That's what I do.  Problem solved.

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I'm actually surprised that clubs, especially busy ones, do have voice enabled.  This one apparently did so it wasn't that he was speaking on voice that was the issue (from what I can ascertain from the OPs posts) but that either (1) his mic was causing lag as referenced in one of the postings - the way I read it the OP may have complained he was lagging and was told shutting off the mic could help (2) his mic was having some issues which could have caused his voice to be garbled or the mic was making a screeching noise or (3) there was mention of a voice morpher being used so that could figure into it...all just guesses based on reading through the posts.

As Solar mentioned in referencing things older residents remember, I recall the brewhaha voice caused when it was first introduced.  I think the concern was that no one would text anymore and public gatherings (ie. clubs) would become a cacophonous disaster.  I worked at a club during that time which had a "no voice" policy.  Someone made "No Voice" t-shirts which I saw around the grid as well.  Good times!

On the subject of SL voice in general, there are a couple of places that I go where voice is used regularly such as in certain classes, but generally it is requested that students ask questions in text so a bunch of open mics don't cause feedback.  I recall in one class hearing a squealing nose due to someone having their mic open and they were asked to shut it off.  My personal experience with SL voice is that it can be iffy - sometimes it works well and others times, not so much.  If I wish to voice with a friend one-on-one, we use Skype or Yahoo or another service while in SL instead of the official voice system.

Edit to correct spelling of "cacophonous"

[Griffin Ceawlin]

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Metalcoldreaper wrote:

This is word for word what i was told by the Staff first off

'If your lagging to much might be worth while not to use voice but ok'

I wasnt using any other program or such, and my mic is a bit sensitive, but i was suffering for a slight amount of lag / Crashing viewer and my mic was apparently cutting out. 

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A club (any busy environment, really) isn't the best place to work out your voice issues. Hearing static, cutoffs, feedback, etc. from someone's mic is just as bad as having to listen to someone's heavy breathing, the TV in the background, or their kids screaming.

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I took this to apparently the "2nd in command" of the club and he told me as i said before that it was a business. Now to refer to something as a business you MUST, Buy, Sell, Or trade. (its a dictionary term.) And i have asked other club owners, and they do not refer to people within their establishments as "Guests" but Paytrons.

If we were guests, we wouldnt be required, or offered at all, to tip or buy anything. The moment you put up tip jars or a market selling items, You have started turning 'guests' into paytrons. And they would have some Equal rights.

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You seem to be hung up this guest vs. patron thing.

guest

n.

1. One who is a recipient of hospitality at the home or table of another.

2. One to whom entertainment or hospitality has been extended by another in the role of host or hostess, as at a party.

3. One who pays for meals or accommodations at a restaurant, hotel, or other establishment; a patron.

4. A distinguished visitor to whom the hospitality of an institution, city, or government is extended.

5. A visiting performer, speaker, or contestant, as on a radio or television program.

6. Zoology A commensal organism, especially an insect that lives in the nest or burrow of another species.

It's true that you're not being invited into someone's living or dining room as a guest. But a guest you are.

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If we were guests, we wouldnt be required, or offered at all, to tip or buy anything. The moment you put up tip jars or a market selling items, You have started turning 'guests' into paytrons.

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See above. P.S. You're not required to tip, buy, or do otherwise, other than to comply with TOS and the club/land owner's wishes.

[Solar Legion]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Margareta Loring wrote:

Club owners that do not want voice can disable voice on their parcels.  That's what I do.  Problem solved.

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I'm actually surprised that clubs, especially busy ones, do have voice enabled.  This one apparently did so it wasn't that he was speaking on voice that was the issue (from what I can ascertain from the OPs posts) but that either (1) his mic was causing lag as referenced in one of the postings - the way I read it the OP may have complained he was lagging and was told shutting off the mic could help (2) his mic was having some issues which could have caused his voice to be garbled or the mic was making a screeching noise or (3) there was mention of a voice morpher being used so that could figure into it...all just guesses based on reading through the posts.

As Solar mentioned in referencing things older residents remember, I recall the brewhaha voice caused when it was first introduced.  I think the concern was that no one would text anymore and public gatherings (ie. clubs) would become a cacaphonious disaster.  I worked at a club during that time which had a "no voice" policy.  Someone made "No Voice" t-shirts which I saw around the grid as well.  Good times!

On the subject of SL voice in general, there are a couple of places that I go where voice is used regularly such as in certain classes, but generally it is requested that students ask questions in text so a bunch of open mics don't cause feedback.  I recall in one class hearing a squealing nose due to someone having their mic open and they were asked to shut it off.  My personal experience with SL voice is that it can be iffy - sometimes it works well and others times, not so much.  If I wish to voice with a friend one-on-one, we use Skype or Yahoo or another service while in SL instead of the official voice system.

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Indeed, those were very interesting times.

One of the clubs I go to has voice enabled and they handle the use of Voice in an interesting way. The DJ is free to request that users either not use voice during their sets or to simply shut it off until they are done with their set (parcel shut down).

This policy is good for forcing users to find a balance between the Voice chat volume and stream volumes.

[Rhys Goode]

 

"'If your lagging to much might be worth while not to use voice but ok'"

A minor technical point.  My old PC was a bit memory starved (32 bit machine, 3.6 G of RAM), and if I had voice enabled, it resulted in lots of memory swapping from my RAM to my hard drive (seen using widows Performance Monitor), and this resulted in a fair amount of lag on my machine.  The lag was there whether I was actually talking or not. So disabling lag made a realy noticeable reduction in lag for me, especially in a crowded sim.  

Now, this kind of lag is confined to your machine.  So, its OK for other users if you want to use voice, but it the lag is too much, it might indeed be worthwhile not to use voice.  Just don't complain to managament about the lag if your machine is the source of it, they might get a bit annoyed.

[Pamela Galli]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Metalcoldreaper wrote:

 

 

Everyone else on was talking this isnt about "Hey i am here, i want the right to talk.". everyone else was talking and i wanted to join in, only to be told to keep my mic off. Its an Equal right that i am sure i deserve even Digitally? 

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You may be a citizen of the United States and Linden Lab is headquartered in the United States but that's about as far as the 14th Amendment applies to this situation. 

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People seem to mistake LL and parcel owners for 1) the US govt and/or 2) their Mom.

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Blaz Neuman wrote:

A dancer in a club suddently decided my av was out of the rules (no animals, when my usual av is a man with a wolf's head and tail, not even a real furry)... I answered her "I'm just a man with a wolf mask on... do you ban masks?" She then switched to "your tail is causing lag"

 

I answered "ok I give up, I'm leaving" and said in the local chat "Ok folks I have to go, appears that I can't have a tail

" She ejected me before I had the time to tp.

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Its generally unwise to hire dancers in a club, and even less wise to visit a place with them.

They are nothing but primma-donnas that go AFK on daceballs / dancepoles and then demand to be paid by -BOTH- the venue and the visitors and expect to be treated above the visitors and above the DJ, host, and owner.

Worthless predators, the lot of them.

And giving one the power to boot people out of your venue... really foolish.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Metalcoldreaper wrote:

I took this to apparently the "2nd in command" of the club and he told me as i said before that it was a business. Now to refer to something as a business you MUST, Buy, Sell, Or trade. (its a dictionary term.) And i have asked other club owners, and they do not refer to people within their establishments as "Guests" but Paytrons.

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This is a misunderstanding on a very deep level...

Relying on a 'dictionary' as authoritative of reality is... unwise...

Reality goes way beyond books and terminology guides.