Kellyo Mayo Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Drake1 Nightfire wrote: All of Star Teks ship names, ship styles, uniforms and races are trademarked and copyright protected. Anyone who copies these into SL, whether they create from scratch or not is breaking the law. HMM USS Enterprise where have I heard that name before? I don't know perhaps in a little known military conflict called World War Two. USS Enterprise was the name of an aircraft carrier and that wasn't even the first military ship to carry the name Enterprise. HMM Voyager where could that have come from? How about Voyager space craft launched by Nasa in launched in 1977. In fact many ships names in Star Trek were taken from naval ships. Why couldn't CBS been original and created brand new names. Why did they have to stoop so low as to look at others creations for inspiration? The cads! People who been making Star Trek items after CBS itself encourages it were not breaking the law. It be like a policeman jumping in your passenger seat and telling you to drive faster than the speed limit to catch a bad guy and then when it was all over giving you a speeding ticket. Drake1 Nightfire wrote: How does forcing people to create new and interesting things stagnate society? How is rehashing the same ideas better than creating new ones? Look at all of the movies that have been remade recently or are in the works. Judge Dredd, Total Recall, Spiderman, Red Dawn, Carrie, Robocop, Neverending Story, and The Crow to name a few. Perhaps we need some new thinkers in the world. Through out the history of mankind's development in art, music, literature, painting, sculpture, philosophy, mathematics, science, architecture, medicine and yes even religion people have always built upon the work of others that came before by copying and adding new nuances and new interpretations. Take a look at many Star Trek themed uniforms that have been created in SL. Many, while yes you can see the influence of the original design, have been expanded upon and changed to come up with a new interpretation. Some even better, I think, than the original. Take one of the greatest minds ever Sir Isaac Newton the creator of a branch of mathematics called "Physics". Did he pull it out of thin air? No he drew upon the knowledge of other forms of mathematics that came from others. Could you imagine of some corporation owned or trademarked the symbol of "=". Oh sorry Newt you are in copyright violation we own = can't publish your book "The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy" sorry. You still be riding a horse and ships would only have sails. While yes completely new original ideas that come out of a vacuum are great but they are only just a small fraction of how things improve and adapt to help society grow and get better. If you are tried of the same movies being made over and over again hearing the same story perhaps it is because of corporations holding on so tight to their copyright and Intellectual properties that instead of these stories evolving, growing and changing with time they have stagnated thus another example of how copyrighting holding society in general back. I do see the value of letting the individual and even corporation be able to be the sole profiteer of the things they create. I think 20 to 25 years is more than long enough to allow them to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 One simple response and then i am done watching this thread. There are millions of books that have not been made into movies. Perhaps someone in Hollyweird should talk to some of those authors before they remake Spiderman for the 25th time. The same laws that protect our intellectual creations also protect every other creator. I, for one, am glad to have that protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 CBS has the copyright It makes no difference if you agree with the law or not, it is their right to stop anyone making a profit off it or using anything connected to Star Trek in any way without permission. CBS is not the only company or person that chooses to enforce their rights. @ Kellyo The links you posted date to 2007. While that may have been the policy at the time, it obviously isn't now because they changed there mind, which is their right. Chosen said in his post that the SL deal fell through, so there is no permission that exists for fan based creations in SL then or now. Even if there were permissions they have a right to revoke it. He did refer to a fan policy but you must read and comply with the current policy not the one from 2007. So none of the links posted proves anything and is no defense against the current actions CBS chooses to take now. Of course there is the legal aspect and there is the public relations aspect of the situation. If I were CBS I would not allow people to sell Star Trek items. I would allow fan based roleplay as long as anything created for it was freely given to anyone that wanted it AND I approved it prior to any distribution to assure it met my quality standards and did not degrade the franchise in any way. However that is my opinion and CBS is not bound in any way to it and if they choose otherwise I respect that. Your contention about people building on the ideas of others is correct but has nothing to do with this. If you knew much about copyright law you would know you cannot copyright an idea. So using Star Trek uniforms as inspiration for other space uniforms is building on the idea of space uniforms. However as soon as you call it a Start Trek uniform or use Federation insignia, or if the uniform makes most people seeing it think immediately that it is a Star Trek uniform, you are in violation of the law. So copyright law does not stagnate any ideas or their application it only prevents rehashing in a substantially similar way the application of an idea. Creating your own original universe or story line for your uniform is what actually expands creativity. As a content creator, I think that people's IP rights should be respected. Things do come into the public domain eventually as a copyright does expire and is not eligible for renewal. I respect your right to disagree on the length of time the protection lasts and you have every right to try to change the law. Your remedy is to go through the established channels to have the law changed if you are a US citizen. If you are not a US Citizen then you have no standing in the matter. However I will point out that treaties exist between the US and many countries to afford protection in a reciprocal manner and most countries have very similar laws. As far as SL violations of copyright, it makes no difference if someone uses a copybot or builds something from scratch, morally or in the eyes of the law, The end result is still the same. To say otherwise is to be disingenuous. Everyone in SL and particularly If you create things should respect the IP rights of others if you wish your rights to be respected. Drake1 was spot on in his comment about so many people complaining about someone protecting rights when it inconveniences them, yet at the same time wanting their own rights protected. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia Sautereau Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 **bleep** happens, move on or get a Star Trek license Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Songlord Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Kill the fan base and you kill the franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia Sautereau Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 and that is their privilege for owning the copyright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Laval Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I'm not sure posting that was a good idea, but I think most people in this thread are in agreement that profiting off someone else's IP without permission is a no no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizzy Gracemount Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Don't see why not....it was sent out in a group notice in IFT group in world...cat is already out of the bad...point was, there was more to the story than what was in the OP's original post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis Sommerfeld Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Songlord wrote: Kill the fan base and you kill the franchise. Oh dear. Do you really think that CBS clamping down on it's intellectual property is going to kill the franchise? That's just the kind of hyperbolic nonsense that drives these kinds of arguments. I was a fan of Star Trek long before fans created content in Second Life, and I'll be a fan of Star Trek long after you delete your prims in righteous indignation. And, so will you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solstyse Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 "WE resemble but are legally distinct from the lollypop guild!" Does anyone remember that episode of Futurama? It was funny and educational! But all jokes and quotes aside. It seems that the best thing Star Trek fans can do right now is to try to create content that is similar enough to things from that TV show that they love to pay homage to it, while simultaneously being different that CBS can't do anything to them for it. Telling a Star Trek roleplayer to do something creative doesn't really work. Their sims, their everything is based on their love of a tv show that they wish to emulate. It's a sign that the show is successful. The fans are loyal, and the whole reason why rp even starts with any theme is that people want to imagine themselves in that situation or environment, or as one of it's characters. To start something original would not be a way for star trek fans to make those fantasies interactive. I can look at this from both sides. CBS may very well be thinking "give an inch, they'll take a mile" while the devoted star trek rp'ers and creators within sl are probably correct that what they are doing is costing cbs money. But copyright laws can be frustrating on both sides. That might be why some of these posts are so heated. But while I'm sure that very few would be 100% happy with the advice I gave in this post, I see it as the only way for Star Trek roleplayers to keep doing what they do, and enjoying sl the way they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 So a thought to Steve and Kellyo and more importantly to whomever the SL Creators / Merchants of all the Star Trek content being sold on the Marketplace or even inworld..... Everyone can complain and grumble all they want how unfair CBS might be but in the end CBS can do what they want on the IP they own unless they are violating terms of an agreed to licensing contract related to the use of their IP. So if they want you "profit creating" merchants of their IP to stop the practice... then that is what you need to do. BUT.... From what I read on the CBS letters (and I am no legal expert) asking kindly to cease the selling of the created content they have IP rights because they basically dont like you making a profit on it. The good news is that they have formally opened a line of communications to you "IP violators". Why not use this to your advantage? Since blindly abiding by their wishes means you wont be making any more MONEY from your content AND as you have stated that the primary objective for creating the content for the SL RP Star Trek community is to enjoy the RP. You have two additional option available to you that you can use this opened line of communications: Respond back to them with an offer to sign a blessed licence agreement with CBS where they would provide you the rights to continue creating and selling their IP content within SL under their oversight and with a % of the revenue from your sales going to them. CBS might be smart about this and realize that it would be better to get into a relationship that they can control and monitor within SL or force this market to go BLACK within SL where passionate fans in SL will find "other means" to get this content outside their view. If you really are fans.... offer CBS the option of continuing to distribute this content FREE OF CHARGE to the SL RP community whereby you are now no longer "making a revenue / profit" from the creations. i.e. you are using their IP for personal non-commercial use. Ask them to bless this. Regardless, I see CBS's legal step as an opportunity to you as it is normally near impossible to get CBS's attention through normal front door cold calling request. Just some thoughts from the crowd (me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellyo Mayo Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I couldn't agree with you more Toysoldier Thor! I much rather have an active productive discussion about the topic and problem then what has been going on. In my first post I presented a Win Win scenario between SL residents and CBS. I will repost it here below. Most of the time I don't bother reading or posting in the SL forums because in general they often are not productive and very very few people offer any sort of solution. Instead 99% of the participants either just complain or point fingers and name call. It is one of the more negative aspects of the SL culture and probably why LL doesn't really listen to us. So Kudos to you Toysoldier for helping lift us out of the muck and mire! My first post: If I were head of CBS and wanted to keep fans happy, protect CBS intellectual propertie rights, make some money and possibly save a ton of money here is what I do. 1. Come to an agreement with LL that anyone can make and sell Star Trek items. 2. Have LL write a small program that any in world vendor object that Star Trek appears in the name of the vendor automatically gives CBS a percentage of the sale. I believe anywhere from 10 to 50% is fair. 3. Any MarketPlace item that is sold with the words Star Trek in the name or description or key words then CBS gets a percentage of the sales same as above. 4. Anything sold or created using the Star Trek theme is automatically owned by CBS and that CBS can request a full permission copy and related material be sent to them. This is where CBS can save money. Say CBS is creating a new video game or CGI Star Trek movie and sees something in SL or the Marketplace they like to use in it. Well they just saved perhaps thousands of dollars in production cost. If CBS were to do this it would generate so much good will and get the fans even more involved seeing as they now become apart of the production team generating content that CBS can sell to all fans all over the world. ________________________________________________________________________________________ Let's hear some more positive ideas how CBS and SL residents can win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edie Shoreland Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Kellyo Mayo wrote: If I were head of CBS and wanted to keep fans happy, protect CBS intellectual propertie rights, make some money and possibly save a ton of money here is what I do. 1. Come to an agreement with LL that anyone can make and sell Star Trek items. 2. Have LL write a small program that any in world vendor object that Star Trek appears in the name of the vendor automatically gives CBS a percentage of the sale. I believe anywhere from 10 to 50% is fair. 3. Any MarketPlace item that is sold with the words Star Trek in the name or description or key words then CBS gets a percentage of the sales same as above. 4. Anything sold or created using the Star Trek theme is automatically owned by CBS and that CBS can request a full permission copy and related material be sent to them. This is where CBS can save money. Say CBS is creating a new video game or CGI Star Trek movie and sees something in SL or the Marketplace they like to use in it. Well they just saved perhaps thousands of dollars in production cost. If CBS were to do this it would generate so much good will and get the fans even more involved seeing as they now become apart of the production team generating content that CBS can sell to all fans all over the world. ________________________________________________________________________________________ Let's hear some more positive ideas how CBS and SL residents can win! Why is it LL's responsibility to come to an agreement with CBS and write vendor scripts that automatically give CBS a percentage? Instead of expecting someone at LL to broker a blanket agreement for the whole grid, shouldn't it be the responsibility of individual creators to get in touch with CBS? The fans and creators should be talking to CBS legal to get the corporation's blessings on these goods, not waiting around for one of the Lindens to deal with it. My suggestion: Get a few Trek related builders to discuss this with someone at CBS, and see if CBS has an employee in promotions who's interested in developing a limited licensing arrangement for this kind of thing. I can't understand why 3 of your 4 steps require LL as a middleman when the people you really need to be talking to are at CBS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellyo Mayo Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Edie Shoreland wrote: Why is it LL's responsibility to come to an agreement with CBS and write vendor scripts that automatically give CBS a percentage? Instead of expecting someone at LL to broker a blanket agreement for the whole grid, shouldn't it be the responsibility of individual creators to get in touch with CBS? The fans and creators should be talking to CBS legal to get the corporation's blessings on these goods, not waiting around for one of the Lindens to deal with it. My suggestion: Get a few Trek related builders to discuss this with someone at CBS, and see if CBS has an employee in promotions who's interested in developing a limited licensing arrangement for this kind of thing. I can't understand why 3 of your 4 steps require LL as a middleman when the people you really need to be talking to are at CBS. Good question Edie and I applaud you for making certainly a reasonable suggestion. I would say is it not so much LL's responsibility to come to an agreement with CBS upon the behalf of all SL residents but rather a smart business decision to do so. See if LL comes to an agreement with CBS like I describe it protects LL from future law suites CBS could bring against them in if say for some reason they didn't respond or respond quickly enough to a DMCA CBS files against a resident. Every DMCA LL has to respond to also costs LL money because they have to have an employee take the time to handle it in a timely manor or they can be in real legal trouble themselves. Since LL writes the TOS or Terms Of Service, that every resident is legally bound to follow, any agreement they make with CBS will be binding to all residents from that time forward and only has to be dealt with once instead of time and time again throughout the years as CBS files DMCA against residents. It is also in the best interest for CBS to deal with just one party LL than individual residents time and time again over the years which costs CBS money to do so. Individual residents creating Star Trek items come and go but LL and the TOS they write are for as long as SL is in existence. Now my hunch is that CBS won't bother themselves with individual residents seeking to make some sort of deal for licensing agreements. They stand to gain very little financially from just one resident being granted a single license. While if LL makes an agreement and writes it into the TOS now the thousands of residents all making and selling Star Trek items CBS gets a financial cut of the income that produces. If LL or CBS isn't willing to make some sort of agreement then your suggestion of residents approaching CBS for some sort of agreement may do the trick and see results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spica Inventor Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Kellyo and Toy. Thank you for your intelligent conversation on this topic. It's nice to see peeps with advanced minds on this forum every now and then. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis Sommerfeld Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I am going to say this slowly; CBS does not care about your profits - it's chump change to them. It would cost them more money just to pursue the case, than you would have made (many times over). The entire notion that "copyright only matters if people are making profits" is bunk. If I make "X", and you decide you like "X", so you make a version of "X" - you have infringed my copyright. I can control whether you make copies of my works. And that's what it is all about. Copyright exists so that the copyright holder can choose what is done with their work. When you make copies of it, you are taking away that right, and deciding what is done with someone else's work. This extends to derivative works. For example, let's say I make "The X Show", and you like "The X Show", so you create, "The X+Y Show". Well, that's a derivative of my work ("The X Show"). You didn't come up with your own idea - you based your ideas on mine. That's a copyright infringement. Yes, yes, I know; you put all the prims together and made the logo yourself and colored in between the lines. But, you didn't create the underlying concept that your work is derived from. And that's where the value is. The safest bet is to make a generic thing, or to come up with your own intellectual property and hope that people like it. And what's wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellyo Mayo Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 In general as copyrights work I agree with you Alexis. I also agree with you that there is nothing wrong and the safest bet is to come up with something completely original. That being said there are obviously some things that you are not aware of. Alexis Sommerfeld wrote: I am going to say this slowly; CBS does not care about your profits - it's chump change to them. It would cost them more money just to pursue the case, than you would have made (many times over). The entire notion that "copyright only matters if people are making profits" is bunk. I have read the emails sent by CBS to one of the SL residents to cease and desist selling Star Trek stuff they had up on the MarketPlace. So it does seem that CBS cares about people making profits or as you have put it chump change. Also part of the history you must not be aware of is that CBS has actively encouraged SL residents to create Star Trek stuff here in SL and encouraged us to make derivations of anything and everything Star Trek. See my links in one of my earlier posts to speeches given by Les Moonves, head of CBS and Philip Linden, then CEO of LL. Now if CBS has changed their mind that is their right. One thing I like people to keep in mind before condemning those who have sold Star Trek stuff they have made is to look in your own inventory at the things you have bought and go onto the MarketPlace and look around. Probably 70 to 80% of the stuff you see is a copyright infringement of some sort. Look at all the cars, boats, planes, fashion, furniture and so on and so on of stuff that is based on a real world objects that someone else and not the person who sells it in SL owns the copyright or design rights to. I believe most people want to follow the rules. My hope is that CBS will give us some clear rules to follow and ones that allow SL residents not only to create Star Trek stuff but to be able to sell it as well. Why because a little profit motivation helps drive innovation and quality. Take that away and it will stagnate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inara Pey Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Kellyo Mayo wrote: For all those out there that think anything Star Trek in SL was a simple case of copyright and intellectual property infringement here is a few links for some food for thought. CBS actively encouraged residents of SL to create Star Trek stuff. The head of CBS Les Moonves himself encouraged a fan of Big Brother who was making YouTube videos and selling coffee mugs with Moonve wife's picture on it who happened to be the host of Big Brother. At least at that time Les Moonves got it. Let the fans create stuff and even let them make a little bit of money for their efforts. I know this I watched the keynote address on YouTube in which Les Moonves spoke and Philip Linden spoke. Consumer Electronics Show Keynote Speech Leslie Moonves, President and CEO, CBS Corporation, Las Vegas, Nevada January 9, 2007 A link to the transcripts put out by CBS. The videos have long since been taken down. http://www.homeelectronics.jp/whitepaper/598.pdf Here's a link to a story about the same time that involves what was then a very well know SL business, Electric Sheep, that was contracted by CBS to create a whole sim devoted to building a TOS USS Enterprise and Star Trek sim. Unfortunately Electric Sheep folded before the sim was complete. http://trekmovie.com/2007/01/11/cbs-wants-trekkies-to-get-a-second-life/ I respectfully suggest you go back and read the PDF transcript you link to, as it most certainly does not give Trek fansany licence or permission to produce and sell Trek merchandise within SL. Let's look at the key quotes from Philip Rosedale and Leslie Moonvies in the PDF you quote: Philip Rosedale: "So, imagine for a moment if, for example, CBS decided to allow people in Second Life to take something like the whole history of Star Trek and play with it, watch it, watch it at their homes, mix it up, do whatever they want with it. "So, the Electric Sheep Company, who builds content in Second Life, turned loose a couple, two especially aggressive Star Trek fans on what they would do in Second Life together with Star Trek if they could do anything they wanted, and so let's take a look at the results of that." Leslie Moonves: "Thank you, Philip. In fact, eSheep is currently building out a very own Starship Enterprise to allow the Second Life community to mash-up a slough of Star Trek episodes." Note what is said here very carefully, and in the context of the CBS / Elecrontic Sheep relationship referred to earlier in the document. The key point here is that both quotes point directly to an agreement reached between CBS and Electronic Sheep for Electronic Sheep to provide in-world content to be used by fans. In turn, Electroinic Sheep contacted two Trek fans to create content related specifically to the arrangement reached with CBS. In other words, the only confirmation the document gives is that CBS were permitting Electronic Sheep to produce Trek-related material. Period. That is very different to CBS having granted permission to any and all Trek fans (or anyone else) to create and sell Trek merchandise within SL - and to read it is such, I would suggest, is to be treading on very thin ice. As a further comment, I find it odd that CBS safeguarding their licence arrangements should be viewed as "stifling innovation" in Second Life. There appears to be absolutely nothing wrong with Trek fans continuing to produce and share Trek content free of charge among themselves. The only issue here lies with people being seen as making profit through the sale of unlicensed material / outside of any specific agreement reached with CBS. The BSG community reached an amicable settlement when a similar problem arose bwtween them and Universal Studios in 2010/2011 (with a deal brokered, I hasten to add, by SL representatives from the International Federation of Trekkers, notablt Nthaniel Swordthain)/ They were allowed to go on using BSG-related material in SL for role-play, etc., so long as said material was not seen to be being sold for personal profit or gain. So really, there is little reason to presuppose such an agreement cannot be reached with CBS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellyo Mayo Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 With respect Inara I said the speeches by Les Moonves and Philip Linden encouraged SL residents to create Star Trek items in SL. I never claimed that the PDF was a written agreement giving us official licence. Here is the full quote from the PDF file. "LESLIE MOONVES: Thank you, Philip. In fact, eSheep is currently building out a very own Starship Enterprise to allow the Second Life community to mash-up a slough of Star Trek episodes. It's a great way to give back to the fans who make the show as successful as it is. Who knows, maybe some day we can even broadcast one of their virtual works on one of our television networks." If that is not CBS encouraging SL residents to create Star Trek items and michinima I don't know what else it could be. Now in the same post I did say I believed Chosen Few who had said in an earlier post on another topic that part of the agreement that Electric Sheep signed with CBS was to allow all SL residents the permission to create Star Trek items. Chosen didn't say if the agreement was to also let people sell the items to other residents or not. Electric Sheep went under before the sim was completed. Weather or not that then took away SL residents permission to create Star Trek items I have no idea depends on how the contract was written. I have not seen the contract but I know Chosen to be an honest and trustworthy person so I believe him. Inara Pey wrote: As a further comment, I find it odd that CBS safeguarding their licence arrangements should be viewed as "stifling innovation" in Second Life. What I said was: "My hope is that CBS will give us some clear rules to follow and ones that allow SL residents not only to create Star Trek stuff but to be able to sell it as well. Why because a little profit motivation helps drive innovation and quality. Take that away and it will stagnate." I find it odd that someone who uses what happened to the BSG community as an example doesn't understand the point I was making. Universal Studios now allows the BSG community, in SL, to create BSG items but can not sell them. They can only give them away for free. The active BSG community is now only a small percentage of what it was before. I have no problem with CBS safeguarding their Intellectual Property or Trademarks or Copyrights. I find it odd that someone would bring up safeguarding license arrangements. I think perhaps you meant Copyrights, Intellectual Property and or Trademarks. Inara Pey wrote: There appears to be absolutely nothing wrong with Trek fans continuing to produce and share Trek content free of charge among themselves. The only issue here lies with people being seen as making profit through the sale of unlicensed material / outside of any specific agreement reached with CBS. Unfortunately you can't say that for sure. After all it appeared for years CBS didn't have a problem with Trek fans that were producing and selling content on the MarketPlace. Technically speaking making Star Trek or any copyrighted item even if it is just for personal use is a copyright violation unless you are the copyright holder or have written permission to do so. Therefore even stuff made and given away for free is in violation. Inara Pey wrote: The BSG community reached an amicable settlement when a similar problem arose bwtween them and Universal Studios in 2010/2011 (with a deal brokered, I hasten to add, by SL representatives from the International Federation of Trekkers, notablt Nthaniel Swordthain)/ They were allowed to go on using BSG-related material in SL for role-play, etc., so long as said material was not seen to be being sold for personal profit or gain. So really, there is little reason to presuppose such an agreement cannot be reached with CBS. Yes the BSG community reached an amicable settlement with Universal Studios. Now let's look at the level and state at which BSG role playing was then, before the crack down, verses now. Before the crack down there where many BSG roll playing sims. Now there are just a few. Before there were new BSG items being made and the quality and innovation was just getting better and better. Now it has practically ground to a halt. My friends who were into BSG roll playing heavily say it is practically dead. With little or no way to make money to keep their doors open sims have dropped like flies. How does most roll playing sims stay afloat? Mainly sim owners rent out small stalls where those who created the roll playing items sell to those who roll play there. No monetary profit for the content creators means no one to rent the vendor stalls at the sim. I am not sure but I don't even think it be legal to charge access to the BSG sim or to rent rooms that are designed to look like BSG living quarters. So that would pretty much leave donations or sim owner who has deep pockets to pay for everything. So please tell me how the settlement with Universal Studios has not stagnated or slowed down innovation of BSG content creation in SL? Is it better than nothing? Of course it is. It is this stagnation that I like to avoid with any agreement that could be reached with CBS. But if CBS came to the same agreement that Universal Studios did it be better than nothing. So where do we stand? Well there is no real written agreement between CBS and the residents of SL. At least none that we can all readily read and follow. Is CBS well within their right to clamp down? Yes! Did CBS encourage residents in SL to create Star Trek content? Yes! I again ask if we can move forward and have a productive discussion. I love to hear positive ideas and suggestions on how the situation with CBS could be handled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolai Warden Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I know of the person in question, he was indeed suspended, LL sent him a notice of the infringement and before he had a chance to remove the items, LL suspended his account. One would think they would give him time to remove items, not inform him and then suspend him less than an hour after passing the message along from CBS. I do wonder why CBS does not wish to work with content creators for officially licensed Star Trek items ... have people create the officially sanctioned content and take a percentage of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inara Pey Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Kellyo Mayo wrote: With respect Inara I said the speeches by Les Moonves and Philip Linden encouraged SL residents to create Star Trek items in SL. I never claimed that the PDF was a written agreement giving us official licence. Here is the full quote from the PDF file. "LESLIE MOONVES: Thank you, Philip. In fact, eSheep is currently building out a very own Starship Enterprise to allow the Second Life community to mash-up a slough of Star Trek episodes. It's a great way to give back to the fans who make the show as successful as it is. Who knows, maybe some day we can even broadcast one of their virtual works on one of our television networks." If that is not CBS encouraging SL residents to create Star Trek items and michinima I don't know what else it could be. I'm frankly baffled as to how you can interpret Moonves' comments as granting anyone in SL the licence to build and sell Trek merchandise for personal gain. Let's look at what he says: "eSheep is currently building" This is very specific and directed. It refers solely to the fact that Electronic Sheep are, on behalf of CBS, building a model of the Enterpise in-world. It simply does not refer to anyone else having licence to do the same. Moonves goes on to state the purpose of the model as being: "To allow the Second Life community to mash-up a slough of Star Trek episodes." In other words, the model is being built with CBS's permission in order for Trek fans in SL to be able to make use of it to create their own epsides. Sorry, but that falls a long way short of any statement that Trek fans in SL can go away and freely create and sell their own merchandise for persnon profit - and I would suggest that to infer it does is a mistake on your part. All Moonves is effectively saying is, "Hey guys! Look, we're having this really cool content built in Second Life for you to come and use. And if you use it, maybe we'll film you doing so!" Kellyo Mayo wrote: Now in the same post I did say I believed Chosen Few who had said in an earlier post on another topic that part of the agreement that Electric Sheep signed with CBS was to allow all SL residents the permission to create Star Trek items. Chosen didn't say if the agreement was to also let people sell the items to other residents or not. Electric Sheep went under before the sim was completed. Weather or not that then took away SL residents permission to create Star Trek items I have no idea depends on how the contract was written. I have not seen the contract but I know Chosen to be an honest and trustworthy person so I believe him. Sorry, but there is no actual proof that Electronic Sheep had signed any such agreement - and unless someone who was directly involved in the cointractural arrangements between CBS and Electronic Sheep can step forward and point to a contract where this is clearly stated, then I'm afraid it remains a matter of subjective interpretation / conjecture. As it stands, and aside from a misunderstanding of Moonves' comments, coupled with what amounts to hearsay in another thread (nothing in that thread is, sadly, produced to demonstrate that Electronic Sheep did in fact enter into any such arrangement with CBS "on behalf of" Second Life users), then it remains hard to agree that anything was "taken away from" SL residents - as it still appears that nothing was in fact ever granted in the first place. At the end of the day, nothing you've stated here supports any contention that CBS have granted any form of carte blank to anyone within SL to profit from use of the Trek brand and franchise - least of all anything Moonves said in the past. As such, and unless or until CBS expressly do come out and say unequivocally that it is OK to profit from their brand without a licence, then I would suggest that the situation remains the same as it has always been for Star Trek merchandise going right back to the days of Desilu Studios and the granting of the first licences to the likes of AMT and Roddenberry's own Lincoln Enterprises: you want to profit from the Trek brand / franchise - then apply for a licence from CBS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellyo Mayo Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I'm quite baffeled that no matter how simply I state it you always get it wrong. I said the speechs Moonves and Philip gave encouraged residents to create Star Trek items and machinima. I never claimed it gave us or granted us licences. I am baffeled how you can read his words, "Thank you, Philip. In fact, eSheep is currently building out a very own Starship Enterprise to allow the Second Life community to mash-up a slough of Star Trek episodes. It's a great way to give back to the fans who make the show as successful as it is. Who knows, maybe some day we can even broadcast one of their virtual works on one of our television networks." and interpret them to mean CBS would come into SL and film residents using the Enterprise Electric Sheep was to build. No where in his speech does he say that. He says "Who knows, maybe some day we can even broadcast one of their virtual works on one of our television networks.". The key operative words are "their virtural works". Meaning the michinima made by residents not CBS coming in and filming fans using the items Electric Sheep was to make. Inara Pey wrote: At the end of the day, nothing you've stated here supports any contention that CBS have granted any form of carte blank to anyone within SL to profit from use of the Trek brand and franchise - least of all anything Moonves said in the past. Did you read anything I actaully wrote? I never said they had and freely admited that we don't know what was in anything CBS signed with Electric Sheep. You completely ignored my second to last paragraph in my last post which says all this. "So where do we stand? Well there is no real written agreement between CBS and the residents of SL. At least none that we can all readily read and follow. Is CBS well within their right to clamp down? Yes! Did CBS encourage residents in SL to create Star Trek content? Yes!" Right now we the residents of Secound Life have no written aggreement to create Star Trek items whether the items are for personal use only or to be given away for free nor to be able to sell them to others. At least no agreement that we all can read and follow if there ever was one. Without a written agreement with CBS even making Star Trek items for personal use is a copyright violation and against the law. This being copyright law Inara I sure hope you have written permission from the Frank Lloyd Wright Foundation to have recreated "Fallingwater". Doesn't matter if it is not an exact replica or a personal interpretation or that it is not for sale. http://modemworld.wordpress.com/2012/02/21/return-to-fallingwater-4-the-video/ http://modemworld.wordpress.com/2012/02/04/return-to-fallingwater-2-progress/ Yet again ask if we can move forward and have a productive discussion. I love to hear positive ideas and suggestions on how the situation with CBS could be handled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banditt Weintraub Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 No Steve, that's not why. it is my understanding that a certain Trek group (who will remain unidentified here) decided to harbor & use copybotters. point blank simple.. not for a new movie, not for their own gains... As for Trek RP in SL.. I have been in world since 05/2008, and quite frankly, the same stories, adventures are constantly being rehashed, and new rp is not given a chance, I personally have tried getting my own ships started, and have been met with dismal failures. Trek RP is dying, and if it has not it is dead already, the major fleets out there, basically pimp one, two, maybe three a week, let alone encourage new rp's ship based, station based it's all been done before, I could name one group of the top of my head, but I choose not to identify them, has a space station, that at any given moment is vacant, and dead. In it's wake, is left groups of "brown nosers" and yes men who do nothing but quench the thirst of a power hungry individual(s), the major groups barely offer any sort of rp activity, and when they do, it's quite simply a bang, bang shoot em' up mission with the Romulans, Klingons, or another species, or the Borg. I have given up on Trek life in SL after the 15th incarnation of the USS Essess reared it's ugly head with it's dime a dozen captain who loves to godmod, or run it their way, Another thing that is killing trek in SL is the way the "fleets" are managed, I could name one that for the longest time harbored ToS violators, and continues to harbor copybotters. This particular fleet could be somewhat likened to fictional Hazzard County, the rural setting for "The Dukes of Hazzard" you have your power hungry Boss Hogg figure, being supported by his Sheriff Rosco P. Coltrane (the dimwitted one) I moved away from trek for my own reasons, which partially have been listed above, and have found a place where I can rp as something else where the storylines are never the same, and there is a strong potential for growth. and this post is not meant to call anyone or any group out.. I am just inputting my $0.02 in the matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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