CBS copyrite clampdown

[Steve Atlanta]

Just a heads up  for any people out there who build Star Trek related items.

Since  CBS/Paramount/Viacom  is relasing a new Trek Movie next year, they are actively clamping down on any who build/sell/give away  and Trek realted builds or ships.

My  friend had his account suspended  for selling the  "Constitution Class Bridge"   the "Type 6 Shuttle"  and a few others.  

We all thought as long as we didnt use the name  "Star Trek"  in the itme  we were safe.  We were wrong.

So now I have removed all Star Trek inspired  builds  from SL Marketplace,  as well as Casper Vendors in world. 

As a precautionary measure I  suggest you do the same!

The Star Trek community in SL is huge  and we have had  many celebrities  as guests  in our conventions,  including Rod Roddenberry,  but now....builds are being deleted,  accounts suspended,  and people are leaving in droves  due to the CBS  clampdown.

[ImaTest1488314069]

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Steve Atlanta wrote:

Just a heads up  for any people out there who build Star Trek related items.

Since  CBS/Paramount/Viacom  is relasing a new Trek Movie next year, they are actively clamping down on any who build/sell/give away  and Trek realted builds or ships.

My  friend had his account suspended  for selling the  "Constitution Class Bridge"   the "Type 6 Shuttle"  and a few others.  

We all thought as long as we didnt use the name  "Star Trek"  in the itme  we were safe.  We were wrong.

So now I have removed all Star Trek inspired  builds  from SL Marketplace,  as well as Casper Vendors in world. 

As a precautionary measure I  suggest you do the same!

The Star Trek community in SL is huge  and we have had  many celebrities  as guests  in our conventions,  including Rod Roddenberry,  but now....builds are being deleted,  accounts suspended,  and people are leaving in droves  due to the CBS  clampdown.

---

I highly doubt people are leaving in droves. Especially people so very immersed in their RP, or hobbies. However if you're going to break copyright you have no business getting pissed off when someone catches you doing so and takes action. Be original and stay away from copyrighted materials and you won't have a problem. It's possible, thousands of residents do it every day. It's not CBS' fault that people can't use their gray matter and create their own unique content without ripping something else off. I'm sure you'll give the everyone else is doing is shpeal, but that's a crock too.

[Ciaran Laval]

I was at the Rod Roddenberry event. Surely the issue is commercial usage of Star Trek materials.

[Steve Atlanta]

Well   since we are Trekkers  in Real life,  we tried to emulate Trek in Second Life as awell.  We built and paid  between 130  to 330 dollars a month to create Trek environments,   and also share  Trek  builds  with friends.  These would be  uniforms, combadges, Transporters, Tricorders, shuttles,  as well as  Huge starships. 

We even roleplay missions,  I myself having built  20 planets  for  away missions.

 

As I said  I went ahead and removed it all,  having  been made aware that CBS  does not approve of its fans  building  or replicating  Star Trek items,  as the creative abilities of Second Life allowed us to do.

 

I can tell by your post  you are not likely a builder  and most  likely  not a merchant ion Second Life,  but  your  harsh attitude  has  perhaps  blinded  you to the fact  that  WE  are the fan base  of Trek,  and  WE  are people  who spend  thousands  of dollars on sims  and objects  in Second  Life  which allow us to play.

 

CBS  has  no care  for its fan base  and  provides  NO opport=unity  for us to purchase a liscence  and makes  NO effort  to  allow us  "fair use"  of  items  which  do NOT  genertate money,  as they prosecute  even free Trek items that we give away.  They are so to speak  shooting themsleves in the foot  since they are attacking their own fan base.

 

Have  you seen CBS  in Second Life  amking  Trek environemnts  and selling them?  Do they make  ONE  linden  from selling starships  or uniforms?  If not  then what is there benefit  from smashing  us  as  we try to play  Trek in Second L:ife?   Why not  take the example of  Dr Who   whose  creators  ENCOURAGE  their fans  to build and play  by making  tardises, avatars, sonic screwdrivers.  Could it be because they appreciate  and love their  fans more?

 

[ImaTest1488314069]

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Steve Atlanta wrote:

Well   since we are Trekkers  in Real life,  we tried to emulate Trek in Second Life as awell.  We built and paid  between 130  to 330 dollars a month to create Trek environments,   and also share  Trek  builds  with friends.  These would be  uniforms, combadges, Transporters, Tricorders, shuttles,  as well as  Huge starships. 

We even roleplay missions,  I myself having built  20 planets  for  away missions.

 

As I said  I went ahead and removed it all,  having  been made aware that CBS  does not approve of its fans  building  or replicating  Star Trek items,  as the creative abilities of Second Life allowed us to do.

 

I can tell by your post  you are not likely a builder  and most  likely  not a merchant ion Second Life,  but  your  harsh attitude  has  perhaps  blinded  you to the fact  that  WE  are the fan base  of Trek,  and  WE  are people  who spend  thousands  of dollars on sims  and objects  in Second  Life  which allow us to play.

 

CBS  has  no care  for its fan base  and  provides  NO opport=unity  for us to purchase a liscence  and makes  NO effort  to  allow us  "fair use"  of  items  which  do NOT  genertate money,  as they prosecute  even free Trek items that we give away.  They are so to speak  shooting themsleves in the foot  since they are attacking their own fan base.

 

Have  you seen CBS  in Second Life  amking  Trek environemnts  and selling them?  Do they make  ONE  linden  from selling starships  or uniforms?  If not  then what is there benefit  from smashing  us  as  we try to play  Trek in Second L:ife?   Why not  take the example of  Dr Who   whose  creators  ENCOURAGE  their fans  to build and play  by making  tardises, avatars, sonic screwdrivers.  Could it be because they appreciate  and love their  fans more?

 

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You're quite wrong to assume that I have no clue. This is not my first avatar, it's just the one I use now because of a challenge some of us merchants participated in some time back on the forums. My first avatar was a merchant from 2005 until only a few months ago. In fact I made my rl living and supported my son being a merchant in sl that entire time. I never once violated a copyright or trademark to enjoy my sl, and still don't. Most people don't.  I've probably also put more money into sl than you have as well. But it doesn't matter. How much you, I or anyone else spends is irrelevant to the issue. I don't know why you think it matters. A penny is a penny, neither is worth more than the other.

You seem to think you, and those with your same interests are special and should not have to follow copyrights like the rest of the world. You are wrong. Lots of companies never bother follow through when people abuse their trademarks or copyrights. Some welcome it. Some companies do care though and will pursue it. They have every right to do so, whenever they choose. It's not a callous attitude or harsh, it's just a reality. Like it or not, we all have to follow the rules. No one has to let you do anything with their property. You're not owed some right to do what you want just because. Plenty of merchants and others the world over enjoy their hobbies, interests and even business ventures without overstepping those lines.

 

[Porky Gorky]

It's a contentious issue for sure. I think if people are making money by selling content that has been copied from Star Trek, then whoever owns the intellectual rights to the Star Trek designs is entitled to a percentage of the profits and are fully within their rights to stop you selling the content for profit. 

However if you only copy Star Trek designs for personal, non commercial use then I think the Studio's should let that go, after all you are basically promoting their brand for free and receiving no payment or profit for doing so.

 

This sort of problem has also hit the game modding community recently. Some of the mods for GTA 4 which were distributed for free were shut down by Time Warner for using Batman vehicles from the rebooted films

I think as studios struggle to keep a hold on their intellectual property rights going forward they will be targeting virtual/game environments more and more as the size of the userbase for these platforms increase.

[WADE1 Jya]

the obvious lesson here is always be original & then you have no worries!

=(^-^)=

[TheRabbit1971]

I just HAVE to sit here and sound out about this.  For all of you talking about Copyright infringement, good for you.  But there is another side.  What about the people who just want to Play in a Star Trek Environment?  That's people like me.  With there crackdown they stepped on MY toes.  I don't Build, I just use stuff and play in the environment.  When builders are forced to delete stations, items, stores, and whole Sims just because someone in Paramount got a bur up there behind, they do hurt the Fanbase.  I am resentful that I have to give up stuff that was made and well made by people who wanted to replicate star trek items as close as to the originals as possible.  This to me shows the reverence we hold to the Spirit of Star Trek, so I gotta toss my gear cause some bean counter in Paramount whined to mommy lawyer that people are making gear on SL so we can enjoy the Universe of Star Trek in our own way?  Ok, I think I'll just not watch the movie they are making.  Until I can see it for free online somewhere, at a duly licensed facility or web page of course. 

[Sassy Romano]

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Steve Atlanta wrote:

My  friend had his account suspended  for selling the  "Constitution Class Bridge"   the "Type 6 Shuttle"  and a few others.  

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Maybe it's just me but I am sceptical.

LL does not ban people for this.  This is NOT the process prescribed by DMCA.

Were there any legal notices filed?  Was your friend sent any LEGAL notice, did LL first contact your friend to point out alleged copyright infringment first?

I suggest that your friend was in fact not suspended for this at all but something else here.

[Ciaran Laval]

Companies need to protect their intellectual property rights but really, if it's non commercial roleplaying they should encourage it, as Porky Gorky states above, this is brand promotion for them, for free.

However if people are profiting from selling Star Trek merchandise then I'm afraid that's a no no, the items should not be set for sale.

There have been similar issues in the past, Battlestar Galactica and Dune roleplaying have experienced similar issues, in the case of Battlestar Galactica it was agreed that items should not be created and sold, I don't know how well that worked out but the involved parties did come to an agreement.

[Perrie Juran]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

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Steve Atlanta wrote:

My  friend had his account suspended  for selling the  "Constitution Class Bridge"   the "Type 6 Shuttle"  and a few others.  

---

Maybe it's just me but I am sceptical.

LL does not ban people for this.  This is NOT the process prescribed by DMCA.

Were there any legal notices filed?  Was your friend sent any LEGAL notice, did LL first contact your friend to point out alleged copyright infringment first?

I suggest that your friend was in fact not suspended for this at all but something else here.

---

I agree with the sceptical but,

"Repeated copyright, trademark, or other intellectual property violations by a Resident may result in their accounts being suspended or terminated."

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Intellectual_Property

 

[Sassy Romano]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

"

Repeated

copyright, trademark, or other intellectual property violations by a Resident may result in their accounts being suspended or terminated."

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Intellectual_Property

 

---

Key word for me there is "Repeated".  I would give LL the benefit of the doubt that their first action would be to a) respond to a DMCA request b) remove the item c) issue a warning.

I do not believe that LL's first action is to suspend an account without any of the above happening first.

[Steve Atlanta]

Just to clarify,  Novatech  was  THE  leading  Trek marketer  in Second Life,  most all Trek  sims use his Transporters, Turbolifts,  and  emDashes.  He also pinoneered the  Horizons Hoilodeck system,  which was the basis  for my Planetary builds.

Plz read my first post,  I have  removed all my Trek inspired builds from  SLM  and my Casper Vendors,  but the question remains,  can we still have  ships on our sims?  Can we roleplay and wear Star Trek uniforms?  It  will be a great loss to me,  and to the Trek community if  we cant.  We Trekkers  made many close friends,  had many charitable events ( American Cancer Society)  and  years  of roleplay  fun.  I personally will miss Trek in Second Life,   thnx  CBS.  BTW  Ill bet  Rod Roddenberry  would  show  sympathy  for us

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Steve Atlanta wrote:

Just to clarify,  Novatech  was  THE  leading  Trek marketer  in Second Life,  most all Trek  sims use his Transporters, Turbolifts,  and  emDashes.  He also pinoneered the  Horizons Hoilodeck system,  which was the basis  for my Planetary builds.

Plz read my first post,  I have  removed all my Trek inspired builds from  SLM  and my Casper Vendors,  but the question remains,  can we still have  ships on our sims?  Can we roleplay and wear Star Trek uniforms?  It  will be a great loss to me,  and to the Trek community if  we cant.  We Trekkers  made many close friends,  had many charitable events ( American Cancer Society)  and  years  of roleplay  fun.  I personally will miss Trek in Second Life,   thnx  CBS.  BTW  Ill bet  Rod Roddenberry  would  show  sympathy  for us

 

---

Here is the issue. Whether or not a SL resident sells the items or simply gives them out to RP with, Linden Lab makes a profit on those Sims. That is the issue. Someone  is making money from Illegal use of copyrighted material. That is why LL clamps down so hard when there is even a sniff in the air of a DMCA being filed, as in with the Na'vi, Star Wars, Star Trek, or Dune.

 

[Kellyo Mayo]

If I were head of CBS and wanted to keep fans happy, protect CBS intelectual propertie rights, make some money and possibly save a ton of money here is what I do.

1. Come to an agreement with LL that anyone can make and sell Star Trek items.

2. Have LL write a small program that any in world vendor object that Star Trek appears in the name of the vendor automatically gives CBS a percentage of the sale.  I believe anywere from 10 to 50% is fair.

3. Any MarketPlace item that is sold with the words Star Trek in the name or description or key words then CBS gets a percentage of the sales same as above.

4. Anything sold or created using the Star Trek theme is automatically owned by CBS and that CBS can request a full permissoin copy and related material be sent to them.  This is where CBS can save money.  Say CBS is creating a new video game or CGI Star Trek movie and sees something in SL or the Marketplace they like to use in it.  Well they just saved perhaps thousands of dollars in production cost.

If CBS were to do this it would generate so much good will and get the fans even more involved seeing as they now become apart of the production team generating content that CBS can sell to all fans all over the world. 

[Perrie Juran]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

"

Repeated

copyright, trademark, or other intellectual property violations by a Resident may result in their accounts being suspended or terminated."

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Intellectual_Property

 

---

Key word for me there is "Repeated".  I would give LL the benefit of the doubt that their first action would be to a) respond to a DMCA request b) remove the item c) issue a warning.

I do not believe that LL's first action is to suspend an account without any of the above happening first.

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I'd agree with you unless it appeared to be something very egregious.  I'd bet there are a few things that would send up a big red flag.

 

[ImaTest1488314069]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Steve Atlanta wrote:

Just to clarify,  Novatech  was  THE  leading  Trek marketer  in Second Life,  most all Trek  sims use his Transporters, Turbolifts,  and  emDashes.  He also pinoneered the  Horizons Hoilodeck system,  which was the basis  for my Planetary builds.

Plz read my first post,  I have  removed all my Trek inspired builds from  SLM  and my Casper Vendors,  but the question remains,  can we still have  ships on our sims?  Can we roleplay and wear Star Trek uniforms?  It  will be a great loss to me,  and to the Trek community if  we cant.  We Trekkers  made many close friends,  had many charitable events ( American Cancer Society)  and  years  of roleplay  fun.  I personally will miss Trek in Second Life,   thnx  CBS.  BTW  Ill bet  Rod Roddenberry  would  show  sympathy  for us

 

---

Here is the issue. Whether or not a SL resident sells the items or simply gives them out to RP with, Linden Lab makes a profit on those Sims. That is the issue. Someone  is making money from Illegal use of copyrighted material. That is why LL clamps down so hard when there is even a sniff in the air of a DMCA being filed, as in with the Na'vi, Star Wars, Star Trek, or Dune.

 

---

Exactly, it's not always a case of someone just bein mean because they can. It may be possible that a company would do it just to be mean but you shouldn't assume it from the word go. The minute someone stops covering their own ass is the minute someone is able to exploit their work. Lots of people can, do and will exploit it too. Some people don't care about that and will freely let people use it. There are some people who do care though and will do whatever they can to prevent or stop it. I know it sucks to lose something you enjoy but it's not just about you. To expect a company or anyone to see things from your perspective, you need to see it from theirs too. I have had my work ripped off. I've seen textures I made show up in sl, inworldz, on deviant art and other random web pages. I've seen my sculpts all over sl, inworldz OS grids and other places too. In some cases I don't really care, in others I do care. Sometimes it downright pisses me off.  I have that right, it's my work, I own it. I don't owe anyone a damn thing, or even a reason why I don't want some of my stuff all over kingdom come. How much someone enjoys it doesn't really play a part in it, at all.You might feel the same if you'd even been put in the same situation. Or you might not.

For some companies going after people is easier, they have the resources. For others it's not always nearly as easy. Sometimes it's not even worth it, which is usually the basis for why someone won't go after people. Not because that person or company loves their fan or customer base more. It's usually because the end result would cost them more than you using their stuff loses them.

I'm not syaing I agree with how companies go about it or whether or not everything should be available for free use. I am just sharing a perspective you clearly cannot see. You don't have to change your opinion or be any less angry about the situation. Most people probably would be angry too. A lot of people also don't understand the why's and how's of situations like this. They just see it as some bully taking away their toys and nothing more. That's not always the case.

 

[Alexis Sommerfeld]

 

First off, a copyright violation can occur regardless of whether or not money was involved; simply the act of copying someone else's intellectual property is enough for you to be violating their copyright.

Secondly, a company can decide to do whatever they like with their intellectual property, and owes you, the consumer, nothing.  

Quibbling about a company protecting their intellectual property is outright silliness.  CBS is clamping down.  They are within their rights to clamp down.   Create your own intellectual property, and you won't have a problem.  You are not entitled to anything that they have created, nor are you entitled to derivative works.  

Why is this such a debate?

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Alexis Sommerfeld wrote:

 

First off, a copyright violation can occur regardless of whether or not money was involved; simply the act of copying someone else's intellectual property is enough for you to be violating their copyright.

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I assure you, if no one was making a profit but them CBS wouldn't care.

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Secondly, a company can decide to do whatever they like with their intellectual property, and owes you, the consumer, nothing.  

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I don't see where i was arguing this point.

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Quibbling about a company protecting their intellectual property is outright silliness.  CBS is clamping down.  They are within their rights to clamp down.   Create your own intellectual property, and you won't have a problem.  You are not entitled to anything that they have created, nor are you entitled to derivative works.  

---

 

Dead horse, you're beating one.

 

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Why is this such a debate?

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It's not.

[Perrie Juran]

While Money may be and probably is the biggest motivating factor in pursuing DCMA's etc, sometimes these companies are also protecting story line, how their characters are used etc.

I think it was Orson Scott Card who once talked about writing for Star Wars.  I could be wrong about who the author was, it's been several years.

He had contracted with Star Wars to write one of their spin off young adult novels.  And Star Wars retained complete editorial control.  He would get comments back like, "This character would never do something like that," or we need you to change this or that so it flows with the long term story line which at first they refused to tell him.

He said that for him it was a miserable writing experience that he would never do again.

Or consider what this Advertising agency ran into when developing an advertising campaign:

"The ad, Manning elaborates, had failed to conform to a series of authoritarian, though kindly, rules that all Doughboy-related work must abide by."

The Doughboy in that Ad did something out of character!

http://www.salon.com/2000/03/23/doughboy/

 

[Kellyo Mayo]

For all those out there that think anything Star Trek in SL was a simple case of copyright and intellectual property infringement  here is a few links for some food for thought.

CBS actively encouraged residents of SL to create Star Trek stuff.  The head of CBS Les Moonves himself encouraged a fan of Big Brother who was making YouTube videos and selling coffee mugs with Moonve wife's picture on it who happened to be the host of Big Brother.  At least at that time Les Moonves got it.  Let the fans create stuff and even let them make a little bit of money for their efforts.

I know this I watched the keynote address on YouTube in which Les Moonves spoke and Philip Linden spoke. Consumer Electronics Show Keynote Speech Leslie Moonves, President and CEO, CBS Corporation, Las Vegas, Nevada January 9, 2007

A link to the transcripts put out by CBS.  The videos have long since been taken down. http://www.homeelectronics.jp/whitepaper/598.pdf

Here's a link to a story about the same time that involves what was then a very well know SL business, Electric Sheep, that was contracted by CBS to create a whole sim devoted to building a TOS USS Enterprise and Star Trek sim.  Unfortunately Electric Sheep folded before the sim was complete.

http://trekmovie.com/2007/01/11/cbs-wants-trekkies-to-get-a-second-life/

Here is a link to some postings by Chosen Few who has insider information about what was negotiated by Electric Sheep and was in a written agreement with CBS.  Part of which gave all residents the right to create Star Trek items for SL.  I believe Chosen.  I know him to be an honest, fair minded and logical man so I have no reason not to believe him.

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Ripped-meshes-How-do-we-responsibly-report-MP-breaches/td-p/1409605/page/13

I don't know if Moonves changed his mind or if there was a tipping point and too much money was being made by SL residents though I can assure you there is perhaps only one or two people in all of SL who made more than $5,000 USD a year off Star Trek in SL.  LL probably profited a whole lot more off all the Star Trek fans in SL than any one individual resident.

Maybe Moonves doesn't care about SL Star Trek fans because SL isn't the hot topic of the media anymore.  Maybe since the contract was a five year agreement and it is now over five years or close to it I don't know.  Maybe CBS is clamping down because of the big Star Trek movie that is coming out next year and they want to be able to prove to the courts they are actively legally defending their intellectual property by going after Novatech which is the biggest fish in SL's pond but Star Trek in SL isn't just a simple case of copyright and intellectual property rights infringements.

 

Post Script:

See my earlier post for how I like to see this issue handled.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

It doesnt really matter what was said 5 years ago, or even a month ago. The fact is, they own the copyrights and they can clamp down as hard as they want. And there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it, nor should there be.

We all complain about copybotters but it seems there is a lot of whining when SLers want to be "copybotters" and use copyright protected items in SL.

[Kellyo Mayo]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

It doesnt really matter what was said 5 years ago, or even a month ago. The fact is, they own the copyrights and they can clamp down as hard as they want. 

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Legally you are probably right they probably do.  Morally, ethically, smart business decision to clamp down probably not.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

And there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it, nor should there be.

 

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Wow you have a low opinion of just how much power an individual has.  Luckily I know better.

 

 

As for the "nor should there be" that is a whole different topic.  Personally the way copyright law is written in the US is over reaching and last for way too long.  Originally it was to last a whole lot shorter period of time.  The reason was that after a period of time things become apart of the culture of society and then should belong to everyone.  To wall it off and allow one person or corporation to totally control it ends up stagnating society and hurting it in the long run.  So in my opinion something should be done about it.

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

We all complain about copybotters but it seems there is a lot of whining when SLers want to be "copybotters" and use copyright protected items in SL.

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There is a huge difference between a copybotter and someone who makes from scratch.  Yes there are people who rip meshes directly from video games and that is like copybotting but something made from scratch after CBS encourages it is not.  And believe me 95% of the Star Trek stuff in SL is made from scratch.

 

 

Using your logic we should lump drunk drivers who kill someone with their car with someone who gets caught broken tail light.

[Ciaran Laval]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

It doesnt really matter what was said 5 years ago, or even a month ago. The fact is, they own the copyrights and they can clamp down as hard as they want. And there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it, nor should there be.

We all complain about copybotters but it seems there is a lot of whining when SLers want to be "copybotters" and use copyright protected items in SL.

---

Well it should matter what was said five years ago, if people are encouraged to create content then it shouldn't be the case that overnight a company changes their mind and files DMCA's, there should be an official notification.

In the case of Star Trek, the project never went ahead, so it appears that there was nothing officially in place, in the case of Coca Cola, there was an official statement that Second Life users could use their trademark for inworld creations.

With Battlestar Galactica, a compromise was reached.

Maybe it would be useful if there were a page of officially sanctioned trademark usage within the Second Life website.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

All of Star Teks ship names, ship styles, uniforms and races are trademarked and copyright protected. Anyone who copies these into SL, whether they create from scratch or not is breaking the law.

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Kellyo Mayo wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

And there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it, nor should there be.

 

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Wow you have a low opinion of just how much power an individual has.  Luckily I know better.

As for the "nor should there be" that is a whole different topic.  Personally the way copyright law is written in the US is over reaching and last for way too long.  Originally it was to last a whole lot shorter period of time.  The reason was that after a period of time things become apart of the culture of society and then should belong to everyone.  To wall it off and allow one person or corporation to totally control it ends up stagnating society and hurting it in the long run.  So in my opinion something should be done about it.

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How does forcing people to create new and interesting things stagnate society?  How is rehashing the same ideas better than creating new ones? Look at all of the movies that have been remade recently or are in the works. Judge Dredd, Total Recall, Spiderman, Red Dawn, Carrie, Robocop, Neverending Story, and The Crow to name a few. Perhaps we need some new thinkers in the world.