Marcus Hancroft Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Oh my god. This from the urban dictionary you linked: "The term "Borked" or "Borking" originated with conservative talk show hosts (primarily Rush Limbaugh) to describe someone who is denied something earned simply because they either aren't politically correct enough or aren't trusted - usually without cause. The usage is derived from Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork who though eminently qualified was deemed too "conservative" to serve as a Supreme Court judge." Now if that isn't reason enough to never ever never speak that made up word again...I don't know what is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rival Destiny Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 lol...well honestly all words are 'made up'. I'm sure you know that the English language, or any other language for that matter, was not part of the info package when we evolved to the stage of speaking. Also, babies aren't delivered by storks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Kampu Oyen wrote: But magic boxes can deliver while the owner's personal inventory is unavailable (tested by accident), which no one has shown to be the case with unfindable inventory folders pertaining to DD. This makes DD an additional risk for inventory borking; not necessarily an additional cause of inventory borking. I'm sorry if this was not clear before. Is it clear now? Of course Magic Boxes will deliver when your inventory isn't available and while you're offline. Of course Direct Delivery will deliver when your inventory isn't available and while your offline - because it has nothing to do with your personal inventory! Hence, no risk to DD deliveries because your personal inventory is missing, deleted, lost in space or out of enthusiasm. It's a different store. End this. Very clear. DD has nothing to do with personal inventory or lack of. Now... back to waiting for CommerceTeam Linden to deliver the roadmap... (I have a front row seat and there's plenty of room). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Hancroft Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Yeah, but if we're gonna use a word made up by somebody...let's not let it be such an id10t as R.L. mmmmkay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Hancroft Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Sorry, Miss Sassy...I didn't mean to go off on a tangent like that. /me sits down in the front row next to Sassy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Yatsenko Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 Well, if CTL is quiet on this issue maybe they don't have a roadmap yet. This tells me either that SLMP needs a lot of bugfixing and they're going to be busy with that or that they don't care about developing the marketplace much further. I personally have no idea which one it is, and from how LL is acting, I can't tell which one is the problem. However, if LL is going to stay quiet, we should start getting a list of things we as merchants would like to see change. I think the most important thing for us as merchants is we need better, more reliable tools for customers to find our products. Search is all over the place and is sometimes reliable and sometimes not. Trying to find things on marketplace can be horribly confusing for a new user. I've gone over this before but a good marketplace experience is good for everyone. Merchants are happier, new users can find new things and find what they want, and transactions work and they're happy with things. The entire magic box/DD debate is over, LL isn't going to get rid of DD and they're not going to let MBs stay around forever. It should be dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 Flea Yatsenko wrote: I think the most important thing for us as merchants is we need better, more reliable tools for customers to find our products. Search is all over the place and is sometimes reliable and sometimes not. Trying to find things on marketplace can be horribly confusing for a new user. I've gone over this before but a good marketplace experience is good for everyone. Merchants are happier, new users can find new things and find what they want, and transactions work and they're happy with things. I think we need better merchants to make the search reliable. As long as people who want to sell a shoe keep putting keywords like 'skin, hair, gown, handbag, nails, eyes, shape' and so on in their listing, search won't become reliable. This flagging doesn't do the job. In the time it takes for a Linden to have a look at a flagged item, ten new items with keyword spam have appeared. Because there seems to be more profit in keyword spam then risk. The only risk is that the item can be taken down and you have to relist it. I think keyword spam will disappear soon enough when the risk is higher then the profit. The will clean up search for the largest part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Yatsenko Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 I agree. I think there's not enough risk involved with posting to the marketplace in general, and that's why we see so many things that shouldn't be posted where they are. We should see a system where repeated keyword abuse flags your whole store and lowers all of your products relevancy. I think a lot of merchants think that if they put in 'skin, hair, gown, handbag, nails, eyes, shape' and so on in their listings that people will search for skins and say, "hey, I could use a nice pair of shoes too!" And honestly, I think it would do the marketplace a world of good if you had to give LL your billing information and such in order to open up a store on SLMP. Requiring it for mesh uploads is a big help, but requiring a new store to excape a person's last spamming and giving them billing information would make it a lot more difficult for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 PeterCanessa Oh wrote: I never knew there was a parcel page like that, thanks. When were they introduced? Hmm, I think this started some time in 2009, maybe before. I only knew about it because many people were using the GO buttons on those pages to go directly to the products. LL actually had those pages in the search engine too when you clicked on the actual parcel in search. Then, like less than 6 months later they changed the search to GSA and detroyed all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeachJubilee Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 Flea Yatsenko wrote: I agree. I think there's not enough risk involved with posting to the marketplace in general, and that's why we see so many things that shouldn't be posted where they are. Actually it's not a problem of too little risk, but of a low differentiation between risk faced by good faith actors and risk faced by deliberate cheats. You can list items in good faith and get yourself treated exactly like a deliberate cheat. This is little incentive to obey the rules no matter what the consequences, since even if you obey them the consequences are still risked. Add into that the low chances of getting caught when deliberately cheating, then even if the penatly were high, there is just too little difference in chances of being "punished" regardless of intent, that those inclined to cheat will not be discouraged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Yatsenko Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 You make a very valid point. THere's not a lot of motivation to run a good business on SL. I've always tried to run a good business but you could probably make as much money scamming people and restarting a store every few weeks. There really aren't that many repercussions. At most you get your account banned and you make a new one. I think that judging by the fact that you can sell your marketplace items for real world money, and that a lot of honest businesses like to give away things for cheap or for free, real world money isn't enough to persuade people to do the right thing. In fact, I think it encourages scammers more than anything. If you list your shoes with keywords for similar things that aren't releated (for example, listing shoes with a pants keyword, since someone who is buying shoes would probably buy pants), you're doing it for the money, and you'll probably make more that way. If you do the right thing and stick to just shoes for your keywords, you end up missing out on sales which means less real world income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kampu Oyen Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 >Of course Direct Delivery will deliver when your inventory isn't available and while your offline I don't think I ever suggested that simply being offline would interfere with deliveries from DD. But inventory being unavailable is a separate problem. If it's unavailable, it's unavailable, whether you're logged in or not. Have you seen even one delivery made yet while inventory was unavailable? I understand that LL has people convinced that DD has nothing to do with personal inventories, but LL also has convinced people of other things that are not strictly correct. The idea that a magic box has to be rezzed on land in order to work, for example. The boxes work better as avatar attachments as long as the avatar is in-world, and the avatar can TP to other regions while the box still says it is rezzed in whatever region the avatar was when the box was attached. Even places where there are no build permissions for that account. I really would like to get off this thread soon. But I at least have to ask one important question... If you have a box on one region and that region goes out of function, you can be prepared for that by having a box on a different region. If your DD folder goes out of function, what is provided to you as a possible alternative? If it will help save some of what I think is probably pointless back-and-forth either here or elsewhere, I'm going to agree with Marcus to begin using other words where I might otherwise use "bork". A also appreciate that Sassy, like the rest of us, is eager to see CTL's road map. But CTL just isn't going to bring it. Not here. Not now. Never. Nowhere. So let me... CTL's road map is to shut off the boxes on1 June, forcing breedables merchants and other people to take their business in-world due to permissions limitations of DD. Once this is accomplished, which merchants can operate profitably and which cannot will be controlled by tampering with the in-world search functions; something we are already seeing to be reported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czari Zenovka Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 Marcus Hancroft wrote: Kampu Oyen wrote: >DD does nothing with your inventory or your account. On this thread, anyway, who even said that it did? That was not the point being made. The point being: DD and boxes are each subject to different types of borking. Boxes are affected by borked regions and DD is affected by borked account and/or borked inventory. Where the bork originates or why is a totally separate matter, and whether DD borks anything at all shouldn't even matter in terms of understanding why the different types of susceptibility to borking might be important to the question of comparative utility between the 2 systems. BTW: I would better like it if you should call me "Kampu", or "Ralph" or "Brooke". Thanks. Miss Sassy is right, Josh, this thread is about the roadmap for the Marketplace. Where it's going, how it's going to get there, etc. We all know you think the magic boxes are perfect. Also...for the love of god let's STOP using the word "bork," OK? You used it 7 times in the above post! It's not even a REAL word! I don't know who started using that word to define the broken state of the marketplace, but it needs to be stopped. We have cross linked listings. NOT borked listings. We have scrambled listings. NOT borked listings. This word is driving me crazy! Let's use a REAL word now, okay people? <the above is for everybody...not just Josh/Kampu> I'll keep using borked if I wish, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czari Zenovka Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 Marcus Hancroft wrote: Yeah, but if we're gonna use a word made up by somebody...let's not let it be such an id10t as R.L. mmmmkay? Idiots are in the eyes of the beholder, MR. Hancroft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanara Zenovka Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 LOL - 'borked' has been a commonly-used term for non-specific computer-related stuffups for at least 15 years in my experience, and when you don't know the exact genesis of the problem, it runs less risk of inaccuracy than 'cross-linked'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterCanessa Oh Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 LL experts don't bork, they nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted May 5, 2012 Author Share Posted May 5, 2012 Kampu Oyen wrote: >Of course Direct Delivery will deliver when your inventory isn't available and while your offline I don't think I ever suggested that simply being offline would interfere with deliveries from DD. But inventory being unavailable is a separate problem. If it's unavailable, it's unavailable, whether you're logged in or not. Ok... Direct Delivery does NOT have any relationship with the users inventory so there is no need to continue asking about whether there has been a delivery when inventory has not been available. It will work, really it will. As to wearing a magic box that will work because the magic box uses XML-RPC's and on rez, that opens a data channel, part of the reference for that being the UUID of the box. When you teleport, that's a new on_rez event and a new data channel. The Marketplace will keep a record of the current communication details and that has nothing to do with the region that the box is in, it's not part of the XML-RPC data. So you're right, you can wear it, the sim location has nothing to do with it but is it smart? Other than proving that you can wear it, which you can, it doesn't ever rez anything so sure it will work in no rez locations but why would anyone wear it in a production environment? No reason at all. It serves no purpose since if you get logged out, it absolutely WON'T work. However, Direct Delivery will work and does not touch a users local inventory. At this point there really is no need to repeat this again. Back to chomping through popcorn while sitting in the front row of the stage, waiting for CTL to announce the roadmap for 2012/13... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spica Inventor Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 How bout limiting keywords for each product to something like 12 maximum? How does that sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 'shoes, skin, hair, gown, handbag, nails, eyes, shape' and still 4 spam keywords to go.... I feel more for a system in this direction: first you get one or two times a warning and a chance to repair your listings. Third time your marketplace store will be blocked for a week. Fourth time your marketplace store will be blocked for a month. And when this still not helps you will loose all merchant access to the marketplace. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kampu Oyen Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 > It will work, really it will. Maybe you're right. But have you seen it work? If the delivery failures people have reported are not specific to their inventories, in what other way would they be specific to those accounts? Why else would some people be getting multiple delivery failures via DD and others none at all? > So you're right, you can wear it, the sim location has nothing to do with it but is it smart? It's smart if you want to see whether it's the box that's the problem. If the box works fine when attached to the avatar, then the box isn't the problem. (And "guess what.") >Other than proving that you can wear it, which you can, it doesn't ever rez anything so sure it will work in no rez locations but why would anyone wear it in a production environment? One would wear it (and also experiment with removing it and reattaching it) in many a heavily lagged Linden region in order to see whether the heavy lag has any detectable ill effects on the box function, especially as compared to simply rezzing the box in a non-Linden place where there appears to be no lag at all. Especially on any day when massive system-wide delivery failures are being reported by other merchants, one would try this in order to see whether it provides a temporary solution by circumventing the region-specific "problems"* that are causing the delivery failures which LL will nonetheless choose to attribute to alleged box defects. (And "guess what.") >No reason at all. Except for the ones given here, this is quite possibly true. >It serves no purpose since if you get logged out, it absolutely WON'T work. It will work better in September 2011 than waiting another 6 months for LL to deploy DD while the rezzed boxes fail to deliver because of system-wide region "problems" which do not affect boxes attached while on Linden sims, even in spite of very intense lag. AND it will work better than waiting for LL to admit that someone is attacking box function in regions that advertise box rental (much less to actually do anything about it). More importantly, when the new "box problems" begin to emerge (any day now) in the hype-up to 1 June, it will work better for breedables merchants either than waiting for LL to support breedables via DD or than waiting for LL fix the same "box problems" it didn't bother to fix in early September "because you'll be able to use DD really soon anyway". If you don't sell items with permissions limits that will be unsupported by DD in the absence of alternatives after 31 May, this last point may be wasted on you. I understand that. In that way, it's a point I'm also sort of wasting on myself. But what's unfair to one group of merchants is really unfair to everyone. If there's a way we can help some of them mitigate the impending escalation of unfairness, I think we should mention it at least often enough that some of them will notice and take what action they can. So I'm telling them: When the boxes stop working correctly any time now ahead of 1 June, it's not the box that's the problem. All you need to do to keep selling your breedables (or similarly DD-incompatible items) until 1 June is to keep your avatar logged on with a magic box attached to it. >Back to chomping through popcorn while sitting in the front row of the stage, waiting for CTL to announce the roadmap for 2012/13... You might want to consult with a nutritionists about that. You're in for a lot of popcorn. Meanwhile, I've already given you the road map. Various types of merchants will be pushed back in-world, and their ability to do business profitably will be controlled by tampering with in-world search. The rest of the story is that as soon any anyone points out on this forum that this is exactly what has happened (some time in June?), a bunch of apparently female merchants from 2009 will emerge out of the woodwork to insist that that couldn't possibly have been the real road map, in spite of the fact that it has explained perfectly where SL commerce has gone. But they won't really offer any evidentiary argument for their position. Instead, the whole thread will be deleted and someone will get banned. Follow-up will include a statistical analysis of the product lines of these merchants to asses the question of whether they compete with other product lines disproportionately impacted by in-word search malfunctions. But that analysis won't be posted here. It will be posted where they can't get it deleted. *please note that I did not use the b-word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted May 5, 2012 Author Share Posted May 5, 2012 Please can you post JIRA's or other references where there are multiple direct delivery failures. I can't recall seeing any. The major issue was Unicode in listing titles but that only affected payment reconciliation. Magic boxes never were THE problem. The magic box problem was created by LL when they changed to the currecnt single queue processing system that doesn't properly handle resilience. 1st June cutoff will be put back at least 2 more months is my guess so I don't see any cause for concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kampu Oyen Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 >Please can you post JIRA's or other references where there are multiple direct delivery failures. I can't recall seeing any. The major issue was Unicode in listing titles but that only affected payment reconciliation. You are correct that I cannot cite multiple JIRAs for this. But there are reports on this forum by merchants who had delivery failures not attributable to Unicode. That they finally somehow cleared up (for now) is no more guarantee that they won't happen than the intermittent near-perfect functioning of boxes was any guarantee that those problems would not come back (which they did). >Magic boxes never were THE problem. The magic box problem was created by LL when they changed to the currecnt single queue processing system that doesn't properly handle resilience. Thank you. I believe that we are essentially in agreement, then, and that this should be clear to other readers. >1st June cutoff will be put back at least 2 more months is my guess so I don't see any cause for concern. I really hope that you're right about this. But it would also be very inconsistent with what CTL has indicated, by action that she intends to accomplish. The currently rolled-back date of 1 June is much like the commissions holiday after 14 February. Such things are occasionally necessary to assure the water boils slowly enough that the frog won't jump out. To look at the question a bit more naively, though: There has been no announcement about the 1 June box shutoff being contingent on first resolving the DD permissions issue, and there has been no outrage over this impending mandatory service downgrade. So, considering the urgency of eliminating any remaining evidence that the boxes only don't work because LL won't let them work, and the non-urgency of resolving the DD permissions issue, the urgency is bound to win out, even assuming no sinister motive behind the withholding of the permissions fix (which is also a dubious assumption). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Sassy Romano wrote: 1st June cutoff will be put back at least 2 more months is my guess so I don't see any cause for concern. Why Sassy? Because that would be the reasonable/sane thing to do? Remember when they shut Xstreet down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted May 6, 2012 Author Share Posted May 6, 2012 We'll see Pamela. Either there will be a huge development in problem resolution that has not been communicated for the past month (possible) or there'll be a disregard for those with problems while rolling out the features that are required such as how to sell transfer only items, or yes, they'll do the right thing. I was able to migrate ok but my partner has a cross linked product image so the only dog in the fight that I have is a puppy. I am just curious how much more of an adversarial relationship LL wants to nurture between it and the merchant community. I'd also be interested in the statistics as to how many have migrated so far from how many total merchants. I suspect that the so far, it's just the tip of the iceberg, there's a whole lot more to come yet. We shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czari Zenovka Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Sassy Romano wrote: 1st June cutoff will be put back at least 2 more months is my guess so I don't see any cause for concern. From your mouth to LL's ears. I sure hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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