The Integrity of MP

[Atticis]

The major mesh full perm MP scam has been going on for some time now.  Mostly likely it's the same person with multiple avatars. They are using ads and products of major full perm designers and selling them at a fraction of the cost. The ads usually stay up for a few days before LL takes them down, but by that time the person doing this already has another avatar selling the same products. I don't know anyone who purchased from this scammer, so I really can't say if the actual product is being used or if the buyer is just getting an empty box. If anyone has this answer please post it, I'm interested to know how bad SL is being degraded by this scam. This is a major issue that needs to be addressed by LL and only ruins the credibility of LL as it continues. 

The only way to prevent scams like this from happening is to make it not worth their while to do so. Anyone can open an MP store and pull off a scam like this and reap some reward until LL shuts them down. I think an effective way to deter this from happening is to make it not worth their while. This can be done by  LL implementing  a 3000L MP store set up fee and reducing the percentage of LL cut for each sale to 4%. By charging an MP store set up fee it will make it less likely these scammers can reap a monetary gain from their scams before LL shuts it down.

My Idea might not be a popular one, but something needs to be done about the integrity of MP.  

[Alwin Alcott]

the best solution would be not to sell full perm items anymore.

It would improve quality and innovation. Designers would really have to work for their earnings instead of glueing a texture and be done...

Lazy and non creative people would be gone soon or see their selling melt as a icecube in the sahara.

Next to it, LL should become active to delete fraude and copybotted items.

A 3000 setup i see as bad idea, it would destroy or prevent, every newcomer from entering the market.

 

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Alwin Alcott wrote:

 

A 3000 setup i see as bad idea, it would destroy or prevent, every newcomer from entering the market.

 

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Ten years ago there was no marketplace. You had to buy or rent land to start a business, an investment often much more then 3000, and a continuing costs in tier or rent. It didn't stop newcomers to enter the market.

 

[mikka Luik]

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Atticis wrote:

The major mesh full perm MP scam has been going on for some time now.  Mostly likely it's the same person with multiple avatars. They are using ads and products of major full perm designers and selling them at a fraction of the cost. The ads usually stay up for a few days before LL takes them down, but by that time the person doing this already has another avatar selling the same products.

I don't know anyone who purchased from this scammer, so I really can't say if the actual product is being used or if the buyer is just getting an empty box.

If anyone has this answer please post it,

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Begs the question then : what is your actual first hand experience? No doubt scams happen as there are plenty of actual named examples  but curious to know what you base this particular anonymous scammer on apart from, well, "we all know/man down the pub told me" ?

Its a serious prob to be sure but how does this help - especially with your insistence that honest people pony up to sell stuff?

[Alwin Alcott]

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

Ten years ago there was no marketplace. You had to buy or rent land to start a business, an investment often much more then 3000, and a continuing costs in tier or rent. It didn't stop newcomers to enter the market.

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ten years ago we crashed the grid for a week if we dared to enter with more than 4000 avatars ... die goeie oude tijd is voorbij 

 

i think you can't compare SL and MP with those ancient prim times anymore.

[Artorius Constantine]

Not selling FP items would kill a lot of good & honest peoples businesses.

I use FP items all the time, love the new Mesh statues. I'm sure I help support at least 8 or 9 other merchants.

I may use 4 or 5 at least in each prop, often more. I do still have to make my own stuff for specialty items.

I just made a little fairy rezzer as part of a Game. The Fairy is all FP body parts sculpts, FP wing textures and hair off an FP mesh statue. The rezzer itself is an FP mesh stump from yet another vendor. That's just the rezzer. In total there are probably 8 or 9 FP items in this one game. FP items are great resources when used properly.

I woildn't shut down if I couldn't get them, I ran for years before Mesh, but I have made some really cool stuff I never could have if it weren't for the FP items. I do do (I said do do lol) a bit of research on who I buy from, I stick to the few I know are up and up and aren't importing a bunch of trademarked junk. If I see a Spiderman avatar or Harley Quinn exact copy costumes, I won't buy anything from them. Got ripped off on a bunch of animations once. Lesson learned.

SL just takes the stuff away that I purchased as FP from a Merchant on their site, no refunds, no recourse, and a lot of PO'd customers who's toys suddenly lost 1/3 of their animations. Not fun. It pays to make sure you're buying good clean stuff.

That said, when I log in the "Recently Purchased" list is usually full of Trademarked and Copyrighted items. They (LL) really need to police the Marketplace better.

[Butch Daddy]

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Artorius Constantine wrote:

 

That said, when I log in the "Recently Purchased" list is usually full of Trademarked and Copyrighted items. They (LL) really need to police the Marketplace better.

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If you log in and see copyrighted or trademarked items then the creators of said items are being lazy by not reporting the items.  It is not up to LL to police the marketplace, or anywhere else for that matter, for copyrighted content.

If I give someone permissions to use my creations in their builds, I do not want some desk jockey that makes minimum wage trying to decide who is or isn't allowed to use my stuff in their builds.

US Federal Law says that the copyright owner, or the copyright owners legally authorized agent, are the only ones who can make a claim of copyright infringment.  That means ME and ME alone can say whether or not I allow someone else to use my stuff.

So hands off my rights.

If someone even remotely thinks that an item might be stolen, or sold against another persons copyright, then the person who buys the item is the ultimate bad guy here, since they are willingly buying something that they think it stolen.

If you see an item that is full perm and it is being sold for 10 lindens and you buy it, then YOU are the one who is in the wrong for buying it, not Linden Lab for not removing the item.

People need to man the heck up and start taking personal responsiblity for what they do, and stop trying to blame others. 

If people would stop buying stuff they think might be stolen, or has something hinky with it, then the yahoos who steal and resell stuff wouldn't have a market.

But hey, everyone wants a cheap deal, even if it means they are buying stolen stuff. 

Until they one day get a message that the stuff they are selling is using stolen textures and they themselves get nailed with a takedown notice.

Stop being so damn cheap, people.

 

[Atticis]

This is my alt,  I'm a store owner and designer that reviews MP on a daily basis. I haven't been a victim of an MP scam becasue I'm familure with the companies and designers of the products being used in the scams.

I guess you're not up to date with the daily ongoings scams on MP during the last few months. To start a bussines there is always overhead needed to get things going, 3000L is a very small sum to reduce a lot of these scams. I also mention a reduction of the percentage LL would get from each sale to offset the startup cost.

[Talligurl]

I have a MP store, but no way I could if I had to pat a 3000L fee. Such a thing definitely would keep people out of the market. And come on get serious, the whole idea is to keep scammers out of the market by making it so they can't make a profit, so don't you think it will have the same effect on people with legitimate, but marginally profitable businesses? It should be obvious to anyone that this is exactly what will happen.

[RavenSkye Waverider]

What sucks is, a customer buying templates may not know who the original creators are because there is no way to fully mark that. So, a customer buying templates to use it legally and create items (I make some of my own as well as use some parts of templates at times because I am still learning), gets punished even more. So the customer, legit customer, isn't the bad guy.. the others are. 

It sucks because I realized later that many of the templates MAY HAVE been not sold by the original creator and it's getting harder to know WHO IS and ISNT legit anymore. There are so many full permission creators, the average user is not going to be able to keep up.

I just recently stopped buying full perm items (clothing), because there are suddenly so many selling without permissions, unless I know their IN WORLD store personally.

 

It's a mess. I wanted to make full perm items too but now I'm not wanting to do so.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Jacob Cagney wrote:

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Artorius Constantine wrote:

 

That said, when I log in the "Recently Purchased" list is usually full of Trademarked and Copyrighted items. They (LL) really need to police the Marketplace better.

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If you log in and see copyrighted or trademarked items then the creators of said items are being lazy by not reporting the items.  It is not up to LL to police the marketplace, or anywhere else for that matter, for copyrighted content.

LL most definitely should police the MP for Copyright protected goods. They take a cut of each and every sale, therefore they are profiting from the sale of illegal goods.

If I give someone permissions to use my creations in their builds, I do not want some desk jockey that makes minimum wage trying to decide who is or isn't allowed to use my stuff in their builds

US Federal Law says that the copyright owner, or the copyright owners legally authorized agent, are the only ones who can make a claim of copyright infringment.  That means ME and ME alone can say whether or not I allow someone else to use my stuff.

And if you really think Blizzard, Disney,

Bethesda Game Studios or any of the other ripped companies are giving people the rights to use their stuff... I have some swampland in Florida for sale.

So hands off my rights.

If someone even remotely thinks that an item might be stolen, or sold against another persons copyright, then the person who buys the item is the ultimate bad guy here, since they are willingly buying something that they think it stolen.

The ultimate bad guy is the one selling the item. 90% of the customers of the MP have no idea if something is a copybotted mesh.

If you see an item that is full perm and it is being sold for 10 lindens and you buy it, then YOU are the one who is in the wrong for buying it, not Linden Lab for not removing the item.

Because every fullperm mesh that is 10L is stolen?

People need to man the heck up and start taking personal responsiblity for what they do, and stop trying to blame others. 

If people would stop buying stuff they think might be stolen, or has something hinky with it, then the yahoos who steal and resell stuff wouldn't have a market.

But hey, everyone wants a cheap deal, even if it means they are buying stolen stuff. 

Until they one day get a message that the stuff they are selling is using stolen textures and they themselves get nailed with a takedown notice.

Stop being so damn cheap, people.

 

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[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Alwin Alcott wrote:

the best solution would be not to sell full perm items anymore.

It would improve quality and innovation. Designers would really have to work for their earnings instead of glueing a texture and be done...

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say you have no idea how much work goes into making clothing textures, do you? Hours if not days worth of work...

Lazy and non creative people would be gone soon or see their selling melt as a icecube in the sahara.

Again, you have no idea how much work goes into it..

Next to it, LL should become active to delete fraude and copybotted items.

I have been saying this for years.. Fully agree.

A 3000 setup i see as bad idea, it would destroy or prevent, every newcomer from entering the market.

Lets be real here.. it's only 12 USD...

 

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[Pamela Galli]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Alwin Alcott wrote:

the best solution would be not to sell full perm items anymore.

It would improve quality and innovation. Designers would really have to work for their earnings instead of glueing a texture and be done...

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say you have no idea how much work goes into making clothing textures, do you? Hours if not days worth of work...

Lazy and non creative people would be gone soon or see their selling melt as a icecube in the sahara.

Again, you have no idea how much work goes into it..

Next to it, LL should become active to delete fraude and copybotted items.

I have been saying this for years.. Fully agree.

A 3000 setup i see as bad idea, it would destroy or prevent, every newcomer from entering the market.

Lets be real here.. it's only 12 USD...

 

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You have at least two kinds of sellers: those running a business and those role playing running a business. For the first group, twelve dollars is not a significant barrier, for the latter it is.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

You have at least two kinds of sellers: those running a business and those role playing running a business. For the first group, twelve dollars is not a significant barrier, for the latter it is.

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I'm not role playing running a business. My shops are an important creative outlet, but are unfortunately subject to the ups and downs of long term disability and health problems. Three thousand lindens is still a significant investment for me. Please be respectful of those of us who are doing the best we can.

I think there are far more people in circumstances similar to mine than those who are just "role playing running a business". We're creating because we enjoy it and enjoy sharing our work with others.

As for full perm items, they got me started in a new direction. I learned a lot by working with mesh items other people created and eventually set out to learn Blender myself. A good friend is a texture dropper, but spends a lot of time getting her textures just right. She's also good at cobbling scripts together and making humourous, quirky things. As SL tech keeps raising the bar for creation higher and higher, full perm helps more people with a broader range of skills and interests participate creatively. That's what keeps me in SL.

[Anaiya Ahren]

Idea 1: Fee for marketplace

Hi jacked accounts often already have a marketplace store, usually come with the lindens and it's easy to spend someone elses money hoping to generate more.  If it doesn't pan out, onto the next hi-jacked account.  A lot of these accounts are hi-jacked.  

 

Idea 2: No full Perm Kits

This is a terrible idea that would not improve quality or innovation.  It would significantly reduce economic activity in Secondlife, hugely reduce competition, drive up prices, massively reduce the diversity of content available in Secondlife and would probably reduce quality and innovation as reducing competition generally tends to.

 

 

[Pamela Galli]

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Bitsy Buccaneer wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

You have at least two kinds of sellers: those running a business and those role playing running a business. For the first group, twelve dollars is not a significant barrier, for the latter it is.

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I'm not role playing running a business. My shops are an important creative outlet, but are unfortunately subject to the ups and downs of long term disability and health problems. Three thousand lindens is still a significant investment for me. Please be respectful of those of us who are doing the best we can.

I think there are far more people in circumstances similar to mine than those who are just "role playing running a business". We're creating because we enjoy it and enjoy sharing our work with others.

As for full perm items, they got me started in a new direction. I learned a lot by working with mesh items other people created and eventually set out to learn Blender myself. A good friend is a texture dropper, but spends a lot of time getting her textures just right. She's also good at cobbling scripts together and making humourous, quirky things. As SL tech keeps raising the bar for creation higher and higher, full perm helps more people with a broader range of skills and interests participate creatively. That's what keeps me in SL.

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An "important creative outlet" can be either a RL business OR a RP business in SL.  Since earning twelve dollars for capital investment can be accomplished in a couple of hours RL, it is not a barrier to a RL business -- which is expected to make a return on the investment. Because running a RL business means getting a return on investment -- of either money or time. That is basic capitalism. There is nothing disrespectful in saying that!

That said, I know from experience that the discussion about this topic never goes anywhere so that's all I have to say.

[Codex Alpha]

SOLUTION: Get payment information from any would-be marketplace merchant. They break the rules, get caught selling copyrighted or copybotted works? Ban the identifying information for life. Zero tolerance is the only way.

Since Linden Labs actually requested and has my Government ID, they have more information on me than any other corporation I've dealt with - just for selling stuff on their Marketplace.

So I'm sure it is in their power to investigate, require Government ID, for everyone who wants to be a merchant if they really wanted to.

Charging innocent people more money won't do squat.

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Pamela Galli wrote:

You have at least two kinds of sellers: those running a business and those role playing running a business. For the first group, twelve dollars is not a significant barrier, for the latter it is.

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Elitist statement, and does not address solutions.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

I don't think you understood my point at all.

[Butch Daddy]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Jacob Cagney wrote:

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Artorius Constantine wrote:

 

That said, when I log in the "Recently Purchased" list is usually full of Trademarked and Copyrighted items. They (LL) really need to police the Marketplace better.

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If you log in and see copyrighted or trademarked items then the creators of said items are being lazy by not reporting the items.  It is not up to LL to police the marketplace, or anywhere else for that matter, for copyrighted content.

LL most definitely should police the MP for Copyright protected goods. They take a cut of each and every sale, therefore they are profiting from the sale of illegal goods.

If you really believe this, then you have ZERO knowledge about the law.

I highly suggest you get yourself educated before you continue to reply about stuff you clearly no nothing about.

http://www.copyright.gov

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#512

The only person/entity responsible for protecting copyrighted materials is the copyright owner. 

 

 

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Jacob Cagney wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Jacob Cagney wrote:

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Artorius Constantine wrote:

 

That said, when I log in the "Recently Purchased" list is usually full of Trademarked and Copyrighted items. They (LL) really need to police the Marketplace better.

---

If you log in and see copyrighted or trademarked items then the creators of said items are being lazy by not reporting the items.  It is not up to LL to police the marketplace, or anywhere else for that matter, for copyrighted content.

LL most definitely should police the MP for Copyright protected goods. They take a cut of each and every sale, therefore they are profiting from the sale of illegal goods.

If you really believe this, then you have ZERO knowledge about the law.

I highly suggest you get yourself educated before you continue to reply about stuff you clearly no nothing about.

http://www.copyright.gov

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#512

The only person/entity responsible for protecting copyrighted materials is the copyright owner. 

 

 

 

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Yes, the person responsible for protecting their copyright is the copyright holder.. That is NOT what i said.. LL takes a cut of each sale.. There are most definitely profiting from the sale of illegal goods. Just like if I sold knock off purses i bought from someone else, I could not claim "I didn't know they were illegal" I would still go to jail.

[Codex Alpha]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

LL takes a cut of each sale..

There

They

are most definitely profiting from the sale of illegal goods. Just like if I sold knock off purses i bought from someone else, I could not claim "I didn't know they were illegal" I would still go to jail.

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Let's not criminalize Linden Labs for providing a hosting service and opportunity, in which participants agree to a TOS to even participate by stating legally they will only upload content they own or have the rights to. The responsibility for that sits squarely on the offending party, who has broken their contract with Linden Labs immediately on conducting such activity.

There is no reasonable way Linden Labs can check each upload, or police each new listing, or to check copyright and license holders. The sheer number of merchant accounts does not allow that, and there is no automated system such as implemented by YouTube that would even apply to these kind of things. One could argue that YouTube is criminal too for 'allowing' copyright infringement to continue because they benefit financially as well - but they're not benefiting financially on purpose, nor in most cases even aware - so that is an important distinction to make.

Don't let your frustrations at the eroding of the trust and integrity and value of the Marketplace be taken out on Linden Labs, as they have limited resources to process what might be hundreds of complaints daily.

Linden Labs can't be aware of infringements unless they are reported. In order to have valid copyright infringement claims, and avoid abuse, they require the IP owner themselves to file for each infringement. They also can't be held responsible for accounts who break the TOS, or for the 5% commissions they make on each sale, since it is an automated system.

The only time Linden Labs would get into any kind of trouble is if they are 'aware' of a IP-infringing listing, and do nothing about it.

The flagging system has failed as well, as the sheer number of infractions must overwhelm Linden Labs, who probably have to check each and every complaint to ensure it is a valid one - or just ignore it. I know several merchants who I have flagged for various offenses - they are probably in the 100s now - their products remain unchanged. When a large number of users are simply unethical, and scumbaggery and dishonesty become the majority, there is nothing Linden Labs can really do at some point - they just don't have the resources to police anymore.

 

[Artorius Constantine]

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entity0x wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

LL takes a cut of each sale..

There

They

are most definitely profiting from the sale of illegal goods. Just like if I sold knock off purses i bought from someone else, I could not claim "I didn't know they were illegal" I would still go to jail.

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Let's not criminalize Linden Labs for providing a hosting service and opportunity,

 ...

Point 1, we aren't, "We" don't make the laws, Merchants are suggesting they should be more responsible for transactions they profit from.

There is no reasonable way Linden Labs can check each upload, or police each new listing

, ...

Point 2, A simple key word logger could detect most major trademarks, like Marvel, Superman etc. in Listing Titles and descriptions. It wouldn't catch everything but it would catch a lot of the obvious named pieces.

Linden Labs can't be aware of infringements unless they are reported

....

Point 3, See my reply to 2. I'm sure there are many other ways to easily monitor new & existing adds.

What Drake said.

Also just want to say, I'm not really pro-regulations or pro big business or anything like that. I just worry about the future of SL if one of these big brands gets pissed. We lost Battlebots for years because of an infringment suit with Budweiser. Big money doesn't mess around. They will shut you down.

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Alwin Alcott wrote:

 

ten years ago we crashed the grid for a week if we dared to enter with more than 4000 avatars ... die goeie oude tijd is voorbij 

 

i think you can't compare SL and MP with those ancient prim times anymore.

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Ja, die tijd hebben we gehad, gelukkig hebben we hem mee mogen maken :smileyhappy:

Yes, the prime times have gone, SL has changed, the number of residents has changed, the commercial environment has changed, and we all become some years older. But I don't think that the mind set of merchants has changes so much during the last ten years.

When 'your own shop' is a must have for you, you will have that store. Even when buying/renting land and paying tier/rent were the only possibilities to have your own store, stores still popped up all along the grid. Each merchant that became succesfull in SL started as a small guy one day. We had to dance or to camp to earn our first L$ to upload some textures. Or we thought we had an idea that could be a big commercial succes and invested some RL money to buy land and build a store.

Still for me a entrance fee for the marketplace is not a strong wish. It can be free because we all contribute by the 5% cut on our sales. The big guys earn a lot and pay accordingly, and the small shops earn just a bit but also pay just a bit. That is a honest system.

But I'm sure that in case there would be a one time fee to enter the marketplace, that people who are passionate enough about having their own store, will have that store. Also the hobby stores, the creative outlet stores, the only now-and-then-active stores. It might take a bit longer to get the money together to open your shop, but in the meantime you can use your time well by doing research the segment of the market you want to enter, and create so you have some products to sell once you open.

[Artorius Constantine]

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

We had to dance or to camp to earn our first L$ to upload some textures...

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Hahaaa I dance padded my way into 20 Lindens for my first 2 texture uploads  just over 10 years ago. tuned those into a Poker stake, turned that into my first rental property. turned that into just over a Million meters of Mainland. Now I just keep one homestead running for my store and a place to build. Yeah times have changed from Roll back Wednesdays.

[Codex Alpha]

Apparently I'm not allowed to post links to demonstrate examples of which I speak about, so you will have to use your imagination instead, or use the MP to search for the keywords I present to follow along. It seems copyright infringers are protected by the very system they are disregarding. Some big name merchants are involved in this reply, who frequently pay their mortgages and living expenses by profiting from copyright infringement.

Keyword searches cannot determine whether a merchant has a valid copyright or license.

How can a keyword search on [ SEARCH: 'Marshall Amps' ] determine this? All these products listed could be copyright infringement, and definitely breaking listing guidelines. Hundreds of items replicating the Marshall brand of guitar amps, many products sold by big name and established stores, that should know better.

Can a keyword determine copyright infringement, when sometimes the listing is not using branded keywords in the title or its tags/keyword list?

What about just a [ SEARCH: 'guitar amp'  (non-brand generic search) ], Scroll down the page, and most are legit or knockoffs, but you will run into a couple who don't use the "Marshall" brand name in their keywords or title, but the texture on the model clearly does

NOTE: I exclude knockoffs or inspired-by type models, since they do not use branding in keywords, text or images.

Keyloggers use a lot of resources, both on the client and the server, since they are reading each and every character you type, and trying to update the search as you go. This could bog down performance on the SL Marketplace.

Keyloggers are also regarded as malware - even though suddenly they are under massive use first with Chrome, now even in the Window 10 Operating System.

In both of these cases, Linden Lab would also have to create, maintain and update a huge word database of every brand name, trademark, movie title, actor name, etc to check this against. This is simply not feasible, as the system cannot determine licensing just from word content.

Therefore, unless a IP holder files a claim, Linden Lab would have to sift through thousands of listings, check their licenses and ownership, verify users are who they say they are, etc. An impossible and very expensive task.

So Linden Lab should dedicate vast resources to chase down merchants who 1) upload copyrighted material 2) broke the Terms of Service immediately on doing so, just to make sure they're legit? Can't be done. We'd have to require an amazing surveillance and police system to do that - or many, many, many employees.

AMC won't care about the occasional uploader that has a [ SEARCH: 'Breaking Bad' ] 'Heisenberg T-shirt,  Disney won't spend time making a claim against some merchant who uploaded a [ SEARCH: 'Tie Fighter' ], nor will  [ SEARCH: 'Nike' ]. 



Unfortunately, even with the mass and obvious IP infringement, a group of LL employees would have to painstakingly go through each and every listing and confirm the sellers have ownership or licenses.. but why should they have to?

By agreeing to the Terms of Service, and passing the "Upload Mesh" test, the seller has affirmed multiple times that they own the item or have permission to sell it.

Unless a copyright holder claims against it in opposition - we all have to assume these people are allowed.

So, in the end...

The integrity of the MP is really defined by the integrity of its merchants.

As with many other commercial sites, selling popular works and brand names still remains profitable for many, and an unfair advantage - because people won't find your unique design through search - unless you use brand names yourself.