LuminousElf Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 all i ever hear is take your things off you make us lag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Are you wearing leggy things or do people just want to see you naked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syo Emerald Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 You are probably wearing something that eats up a lot of ressources and therefore causes lag for others or you wear something else, that disturbs others with either its graphic or sound. I can only guess. Why didn't you ask them what they mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Check your avatar draw weight, and your script usage. If either is high... then yeah: you are lagging the other people around you. If not, then they're blaming the wrong target. But laggy stuff is pretty common, especially on new users who run around with a bunch of freebies. Freebies are often yesterday's fads, being given now that nobody will buy them... And back between 2009-2010 there was some amazingly laggy junk being put out due to script bloat and sculpties... which hit again around 2013-current due to high-polygon mesh... In SL, there are a lot of very bad content creators out there. Not bad in terms of artistry or design, but bad in terms of a total lack of knowledge about optimizing content for 'real time gaming'... There is no system put on them to contain excess, and even the tools to measure it are flawed (while you can see your own avatar's script memory in 'About Land' (because of course you would examine the land settings of the place you are in to learn about... something not related to land at all...)... this tool doesn't tell you the real measure: script time, nor even the exact script memory, but a rounding off... and then there's the 'Draw Weight system, which is just a strange number not explained or broken down). Its basically up to the buyers of the content to self police. Which means learning... And this is a platform full of people who do not take kindly to being asked to educate themselves... and newbies, who get junk thrown at them before they are ready to understand what it is. Chances are, people are right: you are lagging them. You will need to learn why and how to not do it, so you can correct it. If you are too selfish to care... a common reaction around here... consider that you are also lagging yourself. But its 1am, so my post is probably moodier than it should be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coventina Dalgleish Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 you can thank creators with no concern for the game for your warnings there are many really bad creations in here and many do not allow you to destroy the performace of their area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheriColette Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Get yourself something like this, free in marketplace Weight-Scale-Script-Counter and maybe you can trim down your scrips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenMichelle Lane Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 LuminousElf wrote: all i ever hear is take your things off you make us lag Since you titled the thread "To many people complain" I mentally added the correct punctuation which clears up the thread's real purpose: To many people, complain! Oh yes this is the right place to complain to many people. Hell, we love to complain. I tell ya, If I had a Linden for every time I was asked to remove my clothing I'd have given birth to 1000's of Linden babies. What's your story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Faulds Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Lag is rarely server side and is 95% client side, ie on players' computers. In a graphics-intensive setting, like SL, where 99% of everyithing you see around you, including the textures, is made by the users, your graphics card is constantly having to load in new textures. Why should I have to dial back what I wear, which doesn't lag me out on my side, because others' computers need to be updated. My weight is reasonable but I'm not going to refrain from wearing my mesh body or mesh clothing/hair because someone else is lagging out. Many users are using high graphics, draw distances maxed out and have an insane number avatars rezzed with older graphics cards that can't handle the load. That's not my fault nor is it my responsibility to dress so their computers don't lag. They need to decrease their draw distance to a max of 120 meters as you don't need to see 2 sims over. If you have an older computer, you aren't going to be able to run high or ultra graphics settings without lagging. Decrease it to medium. Change the number of avis you render to 10. You don't need to see everyone in the venue, only the ones nearest you. Increase your texture cache to the max at 9984 or something like that, especially if you go to the same places all the time. Your viewer defaults at 512, which isn't much and causes your computer to have to constantly switch out your textures, another reason why you're lagging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richtea57 Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 KarenMichelle Lane wrote: To many people, complain! I tell ya, If I had a Linden for every time I was asked to remove my clothing I'd have given birth to 1000's of Linden babies. Oh, don't worry, I flippin' will. But will they listen? Will they take notice? Will they help? Will I stop asking pointless questions? I often get asked to take my clothes off, both in SL and RL. More often than not it's something to do with my appaling taste. Which I shall complain about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 It's morning and I'm a little more awake now. Here's how to find out about your script usage: And this will show your Draw Weight, note that mine in the screenshot is kind of high: This will let you find out if the problem is you. If these come back low, its not you. If they come back high - start looking for replacements for the higher items. Remember that the lag the high items create is not just them, but also you. Cutting down my own numbers on these has allowed me to turn up graphics, move and teleport faster, and get fewer 'lockups' when teleporting or rezzing. To find out draw weight on individual items, just turn that show thingy on, and wear stuff one at a time. With nothing on at all, an avatar has a draw weight of, I think; 300. But this can vary a bit by detail level of the skin you wear (yes, another MAJOR cause of lag is too high resolution of textures - most things work with 256, only skins and wall posters should ever have 1024, or a large mesh object that uses only 1 texture for 10-25 different sides, or a link set of different objects that all use the same texture, moved and scaled to show different parts for different objects - what is known as a "sprite" in graphics). But many designers use different high resolution textures for every tiny object... This issue is actually the MOST SEVERE cause of lag - to the point that it is usually the reason anytime you 'suddenly crash' in SL after turning to view a new angle or moving to a new area. Speaking of which, two more great ways to cut your lag, in graphics under preferences: Lower camera distance to 64. Cut maximum particles to 0 or 256. - in the old days this would help both you and others and if you had a long camera distance, it took a hit on the system of everyone you saw... forcing them to cache info about you and what you saw. But under the new system I suspect this is no longer an issue due to the 'image baking' being server side now. Still, it WILL affect you by a LOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Bobbie Faulds wrote: Why should I have to dial back what I wear, which doesn't lag me out on my side, because others' computers need to be updated. My weight is reasonable but I'm not going to refrain from wearing my mesh body or mesh clothing/hair because someone else is lagging out. Well, it's not just people with older or underpowered computers. Although by now slightly aging, my i7-3770K with GTX670 is by no means slow but simply can't cope with one of the avatar meshes out there. With a body containing hundreds of thousands of triangles and hands with a whopping 1.4 million (!!! that is what I'd expect in about two full sims), my framerate drops from a capped 60fps (uncapped probably a LOT higher) to an acceptable, but just that, 20-25 fps. That's simply not acceptable if you're visiting places with a lot of people if you ask me, especially since a similair body can be made looking just as good with a couple of tens of thousands faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitlin Tobias Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Kwakkelde Kwak wrote: Bobbie Faulds wrote: Why should I have to dial back what I wear, which doesn't lag me out on my side, because others' computers need to be updated. My weight is reasonable but I'm not going to refrain from wearing my mesh body or mesh clothing/hair because someone else is lagging out. Well, it's not just people with older or underpowered computers. Although by now slightly aging, my i7-3770K with GTX670 is by no means slow but simply can't cope with one of the avatar meshes out there. So for you, I should stop wearing my stuff? While I have no issues at all. I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 For me personally, no, since my machine still copes very well. You completely missed my point so I will clarify. My computer is probably two grades if not higher than that of the average user, so by wearing stuff that simply doesn't make sense, you'll spoil the experience for most people around you. I wear the mesh body I was talking about, but wouldn't do so in a crowded place. Imagine spoiling the experience of most people around you in a library by playing loud music. Imagine spoiling the experience of people around you by throwing paper balls at them continuously. Imagine spoiling the experience of people in traffic by tailgating. That is what you are doing in SL. Advising people to "buy a better computer" is the same as telling them to wear ear plugs, sit somewhere else or move out of the way. So you create a problem and expect others to either accept that or solve it for themselves. Not only are you ruining other people's experience, chances are people will get offended and will let you know, ruining your experience in return. If there is nothing too complain about, not to many people will complain right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 The bottom line appears to be that SL is designed to meet the expectations of the lowest common denominator. Everybody else can GTFO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Derek Torvalar wrote: The bottom line appears to be that SL is designed to meet the expectations of the lowest common denominator. Everybody else can GTFO! All but crippling a computer by using the amount of geometry in a single, small item as one would expect in two full sims is not exactly fitting to what you say, is it? One can't expect a $500 laptop to perform very well in SL, but one also can't expect everyone to buy a $2000 desktop every other year. An item that more than halves the framerate singlehandedly, is simply a bad item. My cpu is still in the range of the fastest out there and my gpu is still a lot faster than the average middle of the road gaming card. I think I should be able to expect more than reasonable performance in SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Kwakkelde Kwak wrote: Derek Torvalar wrote: The bottom line appears to be that SL is designed to meet the expectations of the lowest common denominator. Everybody else can GTFO! All but crippling a computer by using the amount of geometry in a single, small item as one would expect in two full sims is not exactly fitting to what you say, is it? One can't expect a $500 laptop to perform very well in SL, but one also can't expect everyone to buy a $2000 desktop every other year. An item that more than halves the framerate singlehandedly, is simply a bad item. My cpu is still in the range of the fastest out there and my gpu is still a lot faster than the average middle of the road gaming card. I think I should be able to expect more than reasonable performance in SL. I think you are overstating your hardware ratings. Unless you are confining your comparisons to SL only that is. Suffice to say, you are getting the performance your hardware is only capable of. My original statement remains, that the majority of people in SL have hardware capabilities that are far below that of the minority of people who get superior performance are going to push those people out of sims by virtue of the fact sim owners are going to want more people 'happy' in their sim than a few who are uneffected by lag because of their superior machines and thus are able to adorn themselves as they choose, and so will be 'bullied' out. The result of course is that with larger numbers of Avs running crappy systems the lag problem will remain. I suppose we need different sims for those with better hardware capabilities. (Hope that makes sense, I haven't eaten dinner yet) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 You can look up the benchmarks for my cpu and gpu. Your conclusions from that should be the same as mine unless you consider a GTX960 an average gaming card. That card performs slightly higher overall but falls behind on texture rate and especially memory bandwidth. I certainly expect the 670 to outperform the 960 in SL. Anyway, the comparison shouldn't be one computer vs the other, it should be one SL object vs another. Or in case of the mesh body I am talking about, one object vs everything else on screen and then some. 1.4 million faces (taking up maybe 100 pixels on screen) affect my performance drastically on any graphic setting. It's simply a bad product. A couple of those on screen will cripple even the fastest, latest, most expensive video card. So yes, obviously I am getting the performance my computer allows, as does everyone else. But SL could look exactly the same with objects that allow better performance, for everyone. I'm not even 100% sure it's my hardware that can't keep up, with those laggy items on screen, my cpu and gpu cool and slow down, in other words, they are not doing a whole lot. It only makes sense that the average computer determines what the norm is, I can only agree to that. For a high fps game that will be a higher norm than for a social platform like SL. If you want an SL environment suited to your computer, get your own sim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Kwakkelde Kwak wrote: You can look up the benchmarks for my cpu and gpu. Your conclusions from that should be the same as mine unless you consider a GTX960 an average gaming card. That card performs slightly higher overall but falls behind on texture rate and especially memory bandwidth. I certainly expect the 670 to outperform the 960 in SL. Anyway, the comparison shouldn't be one computer vs the other, it should be one SL object vs another. Or in case of the mesh body I am talking about, one object vs everything else on screen and then some. 1.4 million faces (taking up maybe 100 pixels on screen) affect my performance drastically on any graphic setting. It's simply a bad product. A couple of those on screen will cripple even the fastest, latest, most expensive video card. So yes, obviously I am getting the performance my computer allows, as does everyone else. But SL could look exactly the same with objects that allow better performance, for everyone. I'm not even 100% sure it's my hardware that can't keep up, with those laggy items on screen, my cpu and gpu cool and slow down, in other words, they are not doing a whole lot. It only makes sense that the average computer determines what the norm is, I can only agree to that. For a high fps game that will be a higher norm than for a social platform like SL. If you want an SL environment suited to your computer, get your own sim. I was comparing the benchmarks. ;-) Using Heaven and 3d Mark I like to compare my rig to what is out there, hence my comment. Comparatively speaking, in the real world I would rank my system low-mid range (4820K, HD7950 x 2 I disable the crossfire for SL). However, in SL I am pretty sure it is above average. I haven't experienced lag since 2010. When it became clear that I was going to be in SL I started building my systems to be able to run it. I am afraid there will always be the disparity to contend with regardless of the accuracy of your points. Hence my suggestion for someone to start building a sim for those who are able to handle the increased load. But hell, as some here can attest, if I had my way we would all be naked. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Derek Torvalar wrote: Comparatively speaking, in the real world I would rank my system low-mid range (4820K, HD7950 x 2 I disable the crossfire for SL). However, in SL I am pretty sure it is above average. I haven't experienced lag since 2010. I wonder what you consider "real world" SL is not real and (other) games are? People using those benchmarks to compare their system to "the average" most likely have a far above average system to begin with, put together especially for gaming or even bragging rights. So those comparisons are useless in that regard. I'm 99% sure your system, and mine for that matter, are far above average. If you're going to enter a dragrace, beauty pageant, marathon or whatever contest and assume if you end up in the middle you are performing "average", you overlook everyone who doesn't bother to enter, which is of course the vast majority. If you haven't experienced lag since 2010, you either haven't paid attention, have different standards, or are lucky enough not to have encountered some of those terrible objects. With the 20-25 fps I get when wearing that mesh body, I don't really "experience" lag, everything is still smooth, but a drop from 60+ fps I do call lag. According to gpuboss, the framerates for my GTX670 (which has a stock overclock of 980 instead of 915 MHz so should be a bit faster than the benchmark shows) are significantly higher than for a single HD7950 (in optimised games I have to add). The passmark score you refer to is a lot higher for my card aswell. Although mine is older, our CPU's offer about the same performance. This isn't a pissing contest, so my point is: if you don't experience lag, neither should I, according to the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Kwakkelde Kwak wrote: Derek Torvalar wrote: Comparatively speaking, in the real world I would rank my system low-mid range (4820K, HD7950 x 2 I disable the crossfire for SL). However, in SL I am pretty sure it is above average. I haven't experienced lag since 2010. I wonder what you consider "real world" SL is not real and (other) games are? People using those benchmarks to compare their system to "the average" most likely have a far above average system to begin with, put together especially for gaming or even bragging rights. So those comparisons are useless in that regard. I'm 99% sure your system, and mine for that matter, are far above average. If you're going to enter a dragrace, beauty pageant, marathon or whatever contest and assume if you end up in the middle you are performing "average", you overlook everyone who doesn't bother to enter, which is of course the vast majority. If you haven't experienced lag since 2010, you either haven't paid attention, have different standards, or are lucky enough not to have encountered some of those terrible objects. With the 20-25 fps I get when wearing that mesh body, I don't really "experience" lag, everything is still smooth, but a drop from 60+ fps I do call lag. According to gpuboss, the framerates for my GTX670 (which has a stock overclock of 980 instead of 915 MHz so should be a bit faster than the benchmark shows) are significantly higher than for a single HD7950 (in optimised games I have to add). The passmark score you refer to is a lot higher for my card aswell. Although mine is older, our CPU's offer about the same performance. This isn't a pissing contest, so my point is: if you don't experience lag, neither should I, according to the numbers. By real world I simply meant comparisons to other machines tested and reported on the benchmark sites as opposed to the sample of machines only in use in SL. So, yes the bar is significantly higher as the comparison is including the types of people who are in that 'game', like modifying cars to see how supercharged they can get their machines. Just another perspective on performance. And you are right about the nonentries of course, however the numbers of reported machines on 3d Mark (I believe it was that one are in the thousands of independant machines), so still a good sized sample for comparison. And to be clear, if you are referring to simply a decrease in framerate as lag then of course I do get that. I was speaking about that lag that makes being inworld an impossibility as it makes the Av impossible to even move. Last night I went to a club and had a look for the helluvit, about 30 Avs and my FPS went down to 42. At elevation on my own parcel I get over 150. But the decrease is not something I notice, it doesn't effect my experience at all. (and I don't dial down the draw distance or Avs rezzed numbers) No, no it wasn't meant to be one, just a discussion and comparison on performance. I will check out gpuboss as you suggest. My Sapphires are factory clocked at 925 but I can push them to 1.1., maybe higher but I don't want to necessarily do that. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Derek Torvalar wrote: And to be clear, if you are referring to simply a decrease in framerate as lag then of course I do get that. I was speaking about that lag that makes being inworld an impossibility as it makes the Av impossible to even move. Put that way, I don't experience any lag since 2007 I think, two computers ago. And even before that, I could move around at 5-10 fps as long as I set the graphics to low (in the end SL did fry the motherboard on that computer). I can live with 20 fps, but given the type of platform, I don't expect people to have to buy a $1500-$2500 desktop to at least have an acceptable experience. And if potent machines like ours get 20-40 fps under (stupid amounts of) load, I'm pretty sure lots of people will get rates far below 10. The "imposible to move" lag is probably not a framerate issue at all, but a network or server issue. We can thank telecommunications and LL for the performance gain there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Kwakkelde Kwak wrote: Derek Torvalar wrote: And to be clear, if you are referring to simply a decrease in framerate as lag then of course I do get that. I was speaking about that lag that makes being inworld an impossibility as it makes the Av impossible to even move. Put that way, I don't experience any lag since 2007 I think, two computers ago. And even before that, I could move around at 5-10 fps as long as I set the graphics to low (in the end SL did fry the motherboard on that computer). I can live with 20 fps, but given the type of platform, I don't expect people to have to buy a $1500-$2500 desktop to at least have an acceptable experience. And if potent machines like ours get 20-40 fps under (stupid amounts of) load, I'm pretty sure lots of people will get rates far below 10. The "imposible to move" lag is probably not a framerate issue at all, but a network or server issue. We can thank telecommunications and LL for the performance gain there. Have you run Heaven on your machine? Fluctuations in FR are pretty much the norm regardless of the environment. My Heaven scores provide a minimum and maximum ranging from 25 to over 200 averaging at 96.(normal clock, Xfire enabled) I wonder what effect bottlenecking might have on this as well. I am sure most players aren't aware that all RAM, etc is not created equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LlazarusLlong Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Derek Torvalar wrote: I am sure most players aren't aware that all RAM, etc is not created equal. That's RAMist! Everything should be equal. You will have RAMtivists turning up here demanding equal rights from ewe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 As long as I don't suspect anything being wrong with the internals of my black box, I won't test it. So no, I have never used any benchmark program. I do monitor temperatures, since, as I said, I lost a motherboard to SL and in the computer after that (my previous computer) a graphics card. Those were absolutely "stop whining, upgrade your system" cases. The only program I run that puts any load on the card is SL, besides 3ds max (especially when rendering through the gpu). That's really the only task that puts both gpu and cpu at a steady 100%. Of course fluctuations are to be expected, some even big as you show. But in such a synthetic test, we aren't dealing with one or two objects that remain on screen unless you teleport out. The fluctuation you describe is made by a sudden load, created on purpose. If that would be the case in SL, we would be dealing with griefers... I also didn't look into the RAM very well before buying, but it was 16GB of 1600 Kingston, as fast as the 3770k allows. If you're interested, the part nr is KHX1600C9D3/4GX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Since the arrival of mesh, I've had a few encounters with FPS taxing avatars. Like you, I'll see my frame rate drop to a crawl upon arrival of a single person. My solution has been to "Derender + Blacklist". I do the same for people wearing overbright face lights or referee uniforms. There are some debug settings that can be used to mute or imposter avatars with excessive draw weight. Here's more about that... http://blog.nalates.net/2014/11/17/second-life-performance-render-muting/ When I go wander I sometimes set "Max. # of non-imposter avatars" to one. If I'm visiting a crowded sim and have no intention of interacting with others, I might turn off avatar rendering altogether and wear the lowest draw weight outfit I've got. All that said, it is hard to defend someone wearing more geometry than the sim they're in. But the blame starts with LL, who neither make draw weight obvious, nor limit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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