Madeliefste Oh

For each item that you sell counts that you sell the buyer the right to use it. Also when you sell an item with limited permissions. Now when you sell your item full perms, and you don't use an eula, users license, users agreement or attach any terms of use, the buyer can use your items according to the LL permission system, and make copies that he can distribute without any restrictions. When you sell an item full perms with an eula, you sell the buyer the right to use to item according to the eula. When this user sticks to your eula you have no ground to file a dmca. An eula does not only put restrictions on items for the buyer, but also gives him rights. You cannot take back those rights, once you have sold the item. Sometimes you hear about cases where merchants change their eula. I heard about one from a merchant who sells full perms items and a customer of him resold the items for a low price, but according to his terms of use. He was not happy with that, and then he changed his terms of use and did put a up a minimum price that buyers must ask when they want to resell his item. Such is possible, but it doesn't work backwards. The eula that is valid on the moment of buy is the eula that the buyer must stick to. So this merchant can only hold his future customers to his new eula, but not the person who sells his items for a price he doesn't like. Your IP rights are real world rights. When you sell an item in SL, you are not selling your IP rights. You are selling user rights. This counts for all items, restricted or full perms.

Pamela Galli wrote: LL does not enforce agreements between residents. They will do limited takedowns of stolen content when others put their name on your work, when you file a DMCA. But if someone decides to put your things up for sale with your name as creator, they will do nothing. I have a different experience. I had someone who used my full perms sculpty and texture in a creation by him that he had put for sale with full perms. I do allow resell of my merchandise but only with restricted permissions, reselling with full perms is not allowed. He did not change anything in my work, and my name was still on it as creator, and my logo was still on the sculpty map. I filed a dmca for it, and LL took down the creation of this person, both in world and from his inventory.

It is not only a eula between two residents.By being a resident of SL you have agreed to the TOS, which states: 7.8 You agree to respect the Intellectual Property Rights of other users, Linden Lab, and third parties. You agree that you will not upload, publish, or submit to any part of the Service any Content that is protected by Intellectual Property Rights or otherwise subject to proprietary rights, including trade secret or privacy rights, unless you are the owner of such rights or have permission from the rightful owner to upload, publish, or submit the Content and to grant Linden Lab and users of the Service all of the license rights granted in these Terms of Service. So when you upload, publish or submit something without the permission of the original creator you are violating the TOS. You cannot counter a dmca for not agreeing with an EULA. You can only counter a dmca with declaring that the person who claims to be the IP right holder is not the IP right holder, but you are the IP right holder.

To become mesh enabled you have to take a tutorial about IP rights. One of the questions is about this subject of additional terms of use. Though the example is not directly about forbidding to resell with full permissions, but about selling an item as is, it still makes clear that LL recognises the additional terms of use a creator puts to is items as valid. The answer: 'The permission settings on the mesh objects are "full perms", she can do whatever she likes with them', is the wrong answer.

Pamela Galli wrote: They may have changed their minds, but in the past they allowed someone to sell other ppl's full perm sculpts on the MP, because he did not claim to be the creator. Yes. But LL cannot smell who is the original creator is, as long as the original creator doesn't want to claim his rights. I don't think it is smart from original creators not to claim their rights, and just let the violation go on.

Pam, it is up to a IP right holder to decide how his creations can be used. Eula is about the conditions that come with the item. You can define you conditions as you like, as IP right holder. You could for example state in your eula that buyers can use your clothing templates to make clothes in all colors except red. Or you could state that the buyer may just make 100 copies of the sculpty you have made. I know this are ridiculous examples, but it is possible. Now when we take the example of the clothing template. When the IP right holder of this template finds out that one of his clients still has made a red outfit he can file a dmca. Because this is a voilation of his copyright, just because he has forbidden to make red clothes based on his creation.

The person didn't violate the permissions system, but he did violate my copyrights. When it is about copyright infringments it is not a resident to resident dispute. As the legit IP right holder I can file a dmca and LL has to react on that. LL recognises my IP rights and the restrictions I put on the use of my creations, even when they are only stated in a notecard. But now after LL has taken the item down that violates my right, the violator still has the possibility to file a counter dmca. He can only do so by claiming that I am not the copyright holder but he. I don't know how deep LL looks into the issue when a counter dmca is filed. But as soon as a counter dmca is send tehcnically they can take their hands of the issue.When you file a counter dmca you have to swear, under penalty of perjury that you are the IP right owner. And you both have to solve the issue in RL. At this point you might need a lawyer to get your rights as creator. It is at this point that it weakens his case when the IP right holder did not do enough to make clear to the buyer that the item comes with an eula and reveal the terms of use before purchase is made. I don't know if a sign a shop that reveals the terms of use is enough. As far as I know there have not been any cases like these brought to court, so there is no case law.

Please discuss your concerns in a thread that has actually to do with your concerns, in stead of hijacking this thread.

The first creator is the IP right owner, and when he sells his merchandise with an eula, and you are restricted by law to stick to the rules of the eula. Because the right of the IP owner to set limits to redistribution of his creation weights heavier then the SL permission system. I have had a case with someone selling one of my full perms in a full perms creation. I have filed a dmca for that and LL deleted the creation from this person from the grid and from his inventory. So it is not just a matter of honor. Not for the creator, and not for Linden Lab. But there are some angles in this field of eulas. For example, it is important for a merchant to make the eula known to the user before he purchases the item. When he only finds out after buying the there is a restriction for redistribution on the item, you have sold the item with misleading permissions.That can bring you in troubles when it comes to defending your rights. Another point what a lot of full perms sellers forget is that a license agreement only is an agreement when both parties agree. In the system I use myself for the distribution of my Photoshop files, the user can only download the file when he agrees to my users license. When he refuses to click the 'I agree' button the download option just won't open.

Since I am active in SL I have see a lot of people leave. Not one single time I have heared the argument that someone leaves because SL doesn't look good. The reasons I have heard most is: relations and changes in RL. I'm talking now about the average user, not the people who are active in the commercial field of SL (those have other reasons to leave). Another thing I see happen is that there are limited periods that SL is attractive for people. I didn't study it enough to be able to say how these periods exactly are, but one thing I have observed is that for a lot of residents after about two years something as SL tiredness appears. The adventure is out of SL, it has become routine, they have visited all great sims, seen a lot of bands, have a house and have moved a few times, have roleplayed for a while, have played with there breedables, have made a lot of friends and also lost a lot of friends again. And then slowly but steadily SL begins to feel as dull. It starts with login in less often and it ends with selling their land because they are hardly active in SL anymore. I'm glad with this 16k joining every day. It cannot be that all of them leave immediately. There are stayers among them, who fill the gap the leavers leave. And that is what keeps the economy still healthy. There must be several reasons for people not to stay in SL after a first login. My guess is that the people who don't stay because SL doesn't look good is less then 1%. It would be very interesting for LL to get a finger behind these reasons. They could think of things like: when someone made an account, and didn't come back within a week, to send them a survey and ask them what the reason is that they did not come back after the first signup. The response on such a survey might not be too high, but everything you can learn from this is knowledge that is not available till now. I know just a small group of people who have tried SL, but didn't stay. From non of them I have heard they didn't stay because it didn't look good. Or actually I have heard from one, but that is another kind of not looking good, then you refer too. That was someone who saw is avatar just as a grey puppet among lot of other grey puppets. His computer was just not strong enough for SL. When LL is going to advertise SL, ofcourse they must make it look very good. And that is very well possible, because a lot residenst made content that looks very good. I don't think LL denies the idea that quality of design is attractive to people. For example destination guide and those lookbooks they had for a while (are they still there?) are attempts to highlight the quality in SL. But when I listened to Rods keynote, I find it most remarkle that he started his speech with the celebration of creativity. (Creating is the best thing there is, besides what you do in the bedroom). He more or less defines SL as a platform to share creativity. I like that vision very much, because I think of SL in the same way. Creativity is not only making things to sell on the marketplace. Creativity is for all people in SL, whether your are creative with decorating your house, creative in the parties you organise, creative in shooting pictures from yourself in your new dress, creative on your blog, creative as a roleplayer or creative in your friendships. Each avatar is the main character in the story of a second life.Your story is one of a creator who cannot bear the low quality some people produce. But creativity not only comes in very many forms, it also comes with people who have very different skills. There are roleplayers that are so good that they could be RL actors. And there are roleplayers who will never get the real spirit of the 'magic if'. There are clothingdesigners who have 20 years experience with Photoshop, and there are clothing designers who learned how to work with Gimp after they joined Second Life. Of course both will produce a different quality. Nevertheless both can be very passionate about fashion and have very strong design ideas. Being active in a world with user generated content means that users of every skill level can create content. What you call junk is often a creation of someone who is not very skilled yet. What I actually hear you pleating for is that they should not be allowed to create in SL. Because you think that it makes SL look bad and people don't stay for that reason. But I think it's the strongest point of SL that éverybody can be creative in SL in the way that fits him. A beginner can be as passionate about his creation as you are about yours. You must not destroy that passion by putting quality barriers. You must give people room to grow in their skills. In the end the buyers decide who's merchandise they will buy. People who stay long in SL become sensitive to quality. The stayers are the ones who spend money. So when you are a merchant with high quality items, you must not fear from the people who are less skilled then you... they don't target the same buying audience as you do. But they do have an important function in the economy, because... the possibility to be creative in SL is what makes them stay.

For example this is a place where you can drop your boxes on the floor and unpack them: Madame's dressing room

Cool brandname and slogan: ENIN, playing it backwards

WADE1 Jya wrote: If everyone had more space there would be far less infighting, blaming each other, unrest, & complaints (it proven in experiments, crowd the rats together and they will fight). When you have one cage that is too full and split it into two cages, you will soon have two cages that are too full. And the ones who are responsible for this is us, the creators. We will create no matter what, because we love to create. SL isn't growing for years now, it is rather slowly shrinking. But what has been growing all past three years is the number of items for sale. Virtual products are not consumed, they don't get spoiled, they stay brand new as at the first moment of buying. It is a mountain of items that keeps on growing and growing. And the bigger the mountain, the less visibility for each individual item. We work harder and we earn less, is the general experience, I guess. Ofcourse there are exceptions. There are still people who make more money then before, and there are also people who's business is not profitable anymore and who give up. It is not the freebies, it is not the marketplace, it is not Linden Lab. It is us, foolish creators, who keep creating while the market is shrinking. The more we follow our love for creating things, the more we dig our own graves. Your problem is not the freebie hunters or the structure of the marketplace. Your real problem is the merchants who sell in the same price category, in the same quality category, to the same target audience, in a world that is not growing along with the passion of it's creative community. Each new piece your fellow merchants produces is a nail to your grave. And each item you produce one to his. We need growth to solve this split. We need more people who love the beautifull or crazy stuff us rats make.

Maybe you can learn some lessons from my beginners problems. When I started my first shop, I asked advise from a friend who had a shop. She had her shop in a mall, that was owned by one of her friends. But I didn't want a mall shop, I had spend days and days in a sandbox to build my own shop, so it wanted a place to put my own shop. That was no problem for this friend, she could rent me a piece of land next to the mall. I was happy for a while. But after a few months my landlady told me she was moving the mall. She was going to sell her land, because she had also a sexclub on her land. And now her estate owner forced her to leave because of this. She has always presented herself as if she was the owner of the land. But this seemed not to be the whole truth. Though she had bought the land, she had not bought it from Linden Lab, but from one of the big estate owners. And this estate owner had a convenant, which didn't allow sexclubs on the land. I had never heard of a convenant. But you can find the convenant when you check a land in one of the land tabs.It says wat is and isn't allowed on a land. In the months I had rented from her, I had worked very hard and spread my landmark amoung a large group of people, and now I had to move, because of my landlady's fault. I felt so desperate, like I had done all the work for nothing. Lesson 1: always check the convenant before you rent. Lesson 2: rent from the direct owner of the land, not from a sub-owner. I didn't want to move with her. I started looking for other land. I ended up on mainland, I rented from a guy who had a piece on mainland that was big for him alone. He had a script shop and a house on his land and he had landscaped the surrounding nice. I could build up my own shop there, he could give me rights to name to land how I wanted it, the possibility to ban people from my land, and such. And the most important thing for me by that time: he was active for some years already in SL and he planned to stay for a very long time. I didn't have that much merchadise yet, but it was a hard job, changing the landmark in all the boxes you have for sale. It's not only the boxes you have in your shop, but I had listing on two website shops as well (the marketplace did not exist in that time), advertisements on websites and so on... you much change a lot when you change your adress in SL. When you don't have much merchandise yet, and don't make much or any income from your shop, it is smart not to take much costs on you. Renting land in stead of owning land is the cheapest and most riskless solution. In general you pay per week and you can stop after each week. But when you really like creating your merchandise will grow. Every weeks I had to ask my landowner if I could rent some more prims. And he had prims available, so yes, it was possible. When I needed more land he got rid of his house and rented me the extra land. My business was doing pretty good, and I was very productive. When I needed more prims and more land again he started buying more land in the sim. So together we grew bigger. We never became close friends, but we were very good neighbours. I have never regretted I have rented from this guy. I still rent from him. After a year or two he told me: 'I am at my highest tierlevel I want to go. I have so and so many prims still available for you, but after that you cannot grow any longer here in the sim.' By that time I was running two brands on his land. And I didn't want to move! I had invested to much in these landmarks to move. But on the other hand... when I could not grow any longer, it was not more than realistic that I had to sacrifice one of the brands and move it to another sim. And I just could not decide which one that should be. By that time I realised I had become to dependent from my friendly landlord. I made good money with my brands. And once you become used to that, you don't want to loose that anymore (besides of the awfull job of changing landmarks everywhere you can imagen). I was very lucky. My fashion brand was located right on the edge of the neighbouring sim. And one bright day the a parcel from 1500 m2 right behind my shop stood there for sale. I didn't even hesitate for an hour. I became a premium member ona bought the land. It was my only oppertunity to grow, without giving up the landmark of one of the brands. It was the best step I ever did in my carrier as a renter: buying my own land. Because when you are a shopowner, you don't only buy the land when you buy your own piece, you also by independency. You and no one but you is responsible that the tier is paid to LL. Someone who is paying it for you (in the rent situation) is a weak link in your commercial chain. So, I tend to advise... as long as you are small renting is the cheapest situation, its nearly riskless when you start on a small piece of land.If you are not sure yet with your business, this might be the best option for you. But if you are a passionte creator and you are already sure you found it in SL and you are here to stay, you might as well want to buy your indepencency right from the start. When you become a premium member your get a free parcel from 512 m2, where you can start and nobody is ever going to tell you you have to move.

Medhue Simoni wrote: The primary demographic for that game is for people who are not allowed in SL, and have no other comparably creative world/game to goto. So, this is not a fair comparison at all. If the user could have better looking items, do you not think they would want them? I know two people who made an account in SL about four years ago. One is 29, the other is 45. The first one tried SL for a few weeks, but he gave up on it, because he didn't know anybody in SL and he could not convince his friends to join the platform. The second gave up after a few hours because he had no idea what he could do in SL. Both of them are active in Minecraft now, and spend there at least 6 hours a day. The first one joined Minecraft because some of his friends went there. The other joined Minecraft because it made him think of one of the first computergames he ever played. And both are at least as passionate about it, as I am about SL.

ralph Alderton wrote: Human beings are visual creatures, it's our strongest perception of the world around us. Secondlife just does not look good enough and it is the junk that is driving them away Take a game like Minecraft. Even the lowest quality item in SL looks better then the blocks of Minecraft. Still 12.000.000 people signed up for Minecraft and 3.000.000 bought the game.  How do you declare that visual creatures in such big numbers prefer a worse looking 'sandbox game' then SL?

ralph Alderton wrote: Number 2 on the list of reason why 16000 people a day log off and never come back, is the fact that SL doesn't look engaging enough and it doesn't look engaging enough because of one thing - JUNK, junk, junk Human beings are visual creatures, it's our strongest perception of the world around us. Secondlife just does not look good enough and it is the junk that is driving them away Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. When I first came to SL, I was overwhelmed with the whole experience...I had no idea how to play the game. In most games you start with nothing and must try to gain money, energy, strength, power, friends, and so on. But in SL I had no clue where to start and I could not get grip on it. I decided to see if I could find a place where I could work, to make some money. But nobody was hiring avatars that were less then 2 weeks old. You need other hair, a better skin, better clothes they told me and someone gave me a LM of The Free Dove. I think I bought everything that was available in that shop. Some of the things I found I liked very much and with others I had no click at all. And I discovered more freebie shops, not only for clothes, but for all kind of things, from houses to airplanes. And I was amazed that everything was made by residents in SL. In those days I had no eyes for quality at all. I liked my pink shoes, because they were pink, not because they were high quality. I liked them better then many shoes I saw on peoples feet. About half year later I could hardly understand I had ever liked those shoes. They were so poorly made and badly textured. It is not the quality of items that kept me in SL. I don't know if I would have stayed while I had no clue 'where to start in this game' and had nothing to do because I was to young to work. Hunting freebies and trying them on my avatar gave my an aim these first weeks. And when time passed I started to develop an eye for quality in SL. I think this goes not only for me, a lot of people are not trained to see the difference between low or high qualtiy when they first arrive in SL.

You must put your hair and jewelry in the marketplace first, to be able to link to them. You can only relate to item you have available in your marketplace shop.

Maybe you should hire an advertising agency to advertise your advertising agengy.

Que Dexler wrote: It's just so difficult to take pictures of the same product in a different color 30 times and then edit and upload them, but I may have to give in and deal with the frustration of it, haha It is not difficult, it is a lot of work. When you want to be succesfull in fashion, it is very important to realise that the picture is the thing that sells the product. Your product picture must catch the eye of the customer. There are other things, like permissions that influence people on buying or not buying, but the very first thing is the picture. When you don't want to spend much time on your product pictures, you could consider hiring someone who does it for you. Presentation is a too important part of selling fashion in SL to be negligible.

Darrius Gothly wrote: And this brings up one thing that I'm still not sold on ... the fact that new customers can't figure out what to do with a Boxed Item. Okay, so the FIRST time you confront this it might be a bit confusing. . This makes me think of a party where I was a while ago. One of my friends had a 1000 rezdays party, and the theme for the party was 'remember your newbie days', she asked to dig your inventory for things you worn when you ware a newbie. About 80% of the guests was wearing a box somewhere. Other populair things were for example throwing particles all round you, using spoofers and gestures and smoking a very big joint. It was much fun to remember your newbie days collective. But these boxes... If there is something as a SL culture, wearing a box as a newbie is certainly part of this culture. And finding help somewhere on how to stop wearing the box is part of the proces of socializing in SL.

Yes, Pamela, it is more easy for your costumer service when all your merchandise is delivered in the same way, whether it is bought on the marketplace or in world. Apart from that I neither do plan to invest time in unboxing my items for DD delivery. Changes in the selling system have cost me enough time already. The change from Xstreet to Marketplact took me more then 200 hours of handwork. Imagen how much nice merchandise you can make in the same time. The future will only be boxless when merchants are willing to offer their items boxless. Unless the marketplace team develops a very easy ´one click - unbox to the right folder' feature for merchants when DD becomes active, I don't think many of us want to loose time at unboxing our existing merchandise.

There is nothing wrong with being a noob, we all started as a noob. More important then being a noob is if the ceo is able to make a good analysis about the situation of the noob. From the 100 sign ups in SL less then 90 log in for a second time, after three months only 1 of the 100 is still active in SL. So there is a lot to win at the gate. Not only LL will profit from more newbies that become residents, but the whole economy. One of the things the lab is now focusing on is the experience of the new user, the aim is to stimulate that a noob becomes a participant in the economy. If that is the result of Rods noobness, it's not so bad at all. He is not a noob on the terrain of game development. With a game you also have to learn the new player the 'rules of the game', in such a way that is not too difficult, but also not boring, you must guide the player along the knowledges and skills he needs to play the game. Ofcourse, SL is not a game, and you cannot put a method that is used to learn a new player how to play the game one to one on SL, but the knowlegde of those methods and experiences with it can help a lot.

There was a presentation from Rod Humble on SLCC. What he says it that there are about 16.000 new users joining every single day. They see that these new users of SL is a different demographics then the people who are in world for years already. They are younger, mid twenties, they spend less time in world, but more and more time socializing about the activity, for example on message boards, in profiles, on twitter. See the interview (at about 22.20 he adresses this subject).

You could use a non Linden exchange http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Dollar_Marketplace