Theresa Tennyson

Jinnywitha Cleanslate wrote: A friend in that time, posted my issue on the forums - and I was pretty much told I was not telling the truth about it all, and that I was at fault and should have known better. It was rather harshly done I felt, when I could log on to see it. It all sounded rather 'fishy' from the readers points of view, and the details of what happened were taken apart and questioned negatively - when all the details posted were absolutely true. When I got back in , I posted a defence, accepting that I had made mistakes, in clicking the link in the first place, and in the end, resigned myself to just taking the harsh views of people on the chin. The readers pointed out things they felt hadn't and couldn't have happened - but it did. I thanked them for their help anyway, and gave up. Sadly, this is just the way of the world now. Nobody trusts anybody now, it seems. I was one of the principal attackers at the time. You were never doubted, your "friend" was. In the world of internet hoaxes things are usually described as happening to someone's "friend" and not to themselves, and the whole description had been unbelievable. Then, after your "friend" started putting up all sorts of personal information about you I eventually decided it was 99% likely that your "friend" was actually your alt. Assuming this was the case, if you had said this right off you would have been believed much more easily. If you want to be believed you should tell the whole, unvarnished truth or people will start to wonder why things have been varnished. This was an area where SL and RL shouldn't have been mixed. In SL, avatars don't actually have bank accounts; in RL we aren't our own friends. Oh, and if your "friend" actually was a RL friend? You should really put a leash on them, or give them less information about yourself. And if you find yourself in the same situation again? Just use an alt.

Celestiall Nightfire wrote: Sy Beck wrote: Why is that only in the last 100 years or so of our whole human existence when we have had the means to "mass" communicate "easily" and yet be able to remain relatively anonymous that it has become all of a sudden a supposed human right to be completely anonymous? Don't get me wrong I don't think that any organisation or government has the right to know your identities across all media, platforms etc...But for nearly all of human existence who you were or your facial identity was known to any person or organisation that you were personally dealing with and was it ever a detriment when in fact it was a necessity? Because, the ways that we communicate have changed. Also, the ways that we exchange information. In the past, if I said "Hello" to you at the local food market, you didn't necessarily know my name, or where I lived. Now, both of those things, and all manner of other personal information can be found out about someone in an instant...if that "Hello" is done online. People seek a higher level of privacy, as the medium allows so much more to be revealed. The Internet lays bare our private selves, in a way that the old physical world never did. Actually, in the past, you COULD find out all matter of personal information about a stranger you said hello to in the local food store in an instant - by asking the person behind the counter, who probably knew much more about them than a stranger could find out today in "seconds", even if they DID know your name. "Privacy" as you're describing is really a twentieth century Western concept - a number of languages don't even have a word for it. We see our personal side of the privacy/information question but perhaps don't realize how the other side of the equation works. If you search for something on-line, yes - you may well see an ad for a similar product pop up. This is NOT because Darlene McGoogle sitting at a desk somewhere spun her Roladex and called the Dodge dealer saying, "Hey, I see Celestiall just looked at a Honda - you better call her toot sweet..." It's all done by an algorithm and algorithms do not care. The miniscule number of real-life Darlene McGoogles deal with the information of hundreds of millions of people every day, thousands of whom have far more embarassing fetishes than you. If you REALLY want to hide, the best place isn't behind a tree in the middle of a moor; it's in a crowded football stadium. If someone really wants to find out information about someone specific you could always find out about them doing some work - all the extra information floating around today is actually worsening the signal-to-noise ratio.

Kayaker Magic wrote: In preparation for putting my SIM up for sale, I combined all the parcels into one, marked it for sale, including the prims, and set the price to a HUGE VALUE. I chose the value to prevent someone from purchasing the parcel, since it was the SIM I wanted to sell. In fact, I set the parcel price to the ammount I hoped to get for selling the whole SIM. Then within a day, someone purchased the parcel for that HUGE sum! Well, that's great and if she wants the SIM as well, I'll sell that to her for L$1 more since I already got the price I wanted. I wish I had a fiew minutes of warning to remove a few personal prims before they were all aquired. But this whole transaction is bothering me. Why would someone pay so much just for a parcel? This person has not tried to contact me. I am still the owner of the SIM and the estate manager. I checked her profile and she has been a resident for years, implying some experience here. So I'm wondering if this sale is too good to be true... They might have THOUGH they were buying the sim, in case the sale would be pretty straightforward. However, did you have the sale price and have a "weekly" price set to 0? If that was the case they might have thought they were buying the parcel for a one-time fee and didn't have to pay rent after that. You should be prepared to refund their money if that was the case. In the future you should limit who a parcel can be bought by if you don't actually want the parcel to change hands unexpectedly.

Mandel Solano wrote: even with Firestorm I have this problem why does it happens? it's not possible to log in Did you get some sort of Microsoft automatic update recently? The Intel graphics drivers that a Surface Pro uses gave problems with SL when they were first released but I think they were fixed eventually. A Microsoft update may have rolled back those fixes (never trust Windows updates for graphics drivers.) See if you can get updated drivers directly from Intel.

NuriaMuriel wrote: My laptop had broke and now i have to work in my netbook, have no money to buy a new laptop for the moment, so i wonder what are my options? have any way to run the second life in my netbook? i got the cool vl viewer, i can play it with a lot of limitations and can't go to some sims... i don't understand much of technology, so i wonder if i connect the netbook to a TV, would that help to run sl better? Thank you so much! You MAY be a good candidate for SL Go, which processes the world remotely and streams to you. You'll need a fast internet connection. The service is very new and has recently had its price reduced. http://joyardley.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/slgo-will-cost-9-95-a-month-with-unlimited-usage/

Arduenn Schwartzman wrote: Again, it's nice that it works for you, but it's not for dozens of official viewer users, including me and two colleagues, one of whom is an experienced beta tester. The HUD works perfectly for me on two different machines, one Vista and one Windows 7, using both the main-channel LL viewer and the Project Interesting RC viewer. I tested it on both main-channel server and RC server regions, including both Mad City and Dwarfins. I've attached it and detached it repeatedly, hit "Stop Animating Me" while wearing it, relogged with it attached, relogged with it detached and then re-attached it. I've actually used it in the context of the hunt and collected "paper" and worn the collection bag while doing all of this. I can't break the little puppy. So, this would indicate that your initial hypothesis is incorrect in assuming that the function is entirely broken in this particular viewer. What you're dealing with is an isolated problem based on an undiscovered variable. You don't actually know the extent of the problem. Though you say you have dozens of failure reports you have no way of knowing how many LL Viewer March 15 release users AREN'T having problems because people don't generally report something NOT failing. (This is assuming that you're not indulging in forum poster hyperboly and "dozens" is actually dozens and not, say, five.) So, your next steip is to collect data on the setups of people whose HUD's ARE failing and see if there's a pattern.

FabulasticJim wrote: So I got a new hair, which was alowed to be retextured, I re textured it and uploaded the texture but my friends still only see the default white version of the hair. How to fix this? Did you texture it with a local texture and THEN upload the texture? You need to re-texxture it with the texture you just uploaded - local textures will never be visible to others, even if you later upload the same texture.

Phil Deakins wrote: To be fair, I think what Drake was actually trying to say is that nobody uses inworld search any more. Just like he said And what you said was you never use any other search than in-world search. Exactly how many sets of car keys have you lost so far, then?

Phil Deakins wrote: What you do is irrelevant. You said, "Not that anyone uses inworld search any more". You are totally wrong about that, and I can prove it. When i want to find something, I always use the inworld search, and I never use any other search. That's complete proof that what you said is wrong. And I've no doubt that there are masses of other people who also use the inworld search. I think what Drake meant to say is that traffic scores aren't as important to many people as those who try to game them believe. Personally I use in-world search to find a SPECIFIC thing that I know at least part of the name of, (including people and places), and occasionally a very specific category that would have few entries - say, "World War I uniforms." I would never search for vague terms like "Dance Club" or "Women's Clothing" because it's too easy to game your listing order by measures that have nothing to do with the quality of service, especially back when traffic was the big factor - it would be the same as calling Acme Plumbers in real life because they were the first ones listed in the phone book.

carolinestravels wrote: Hitomi Tiponi wrote: You do realise that two thousand people have already cancelled their accounts out of disgust without even bothering to read the link :matte-motes-wink: Would it be really THAT bad? What I noticed is record traffic on the blog, especially from twitter were this makes the rounds now ! On the SL forum the word "Facebook" is basically the equivalent of words like "Communism" at a country club or "Broccoli" in an elementary school - it's a concept of fear and disgust far outstripping its real-world characteristics.

Ozma64 wrote: have reinstalled Second life and since then I have had issues with people's voices stuttering constantly. example: "he-he-he-he-he-llo-llo-llo-llo-llo-llo" when someone tries to tell me "hello" how can I fix this? There have been "under-the-hood" changes to voice chat lately and some people are noticing issues like yours. This link goes to a beta viewer that's meant to try to fix some voice issues - try downloading the appropriate version for your computer from the links at the top of the page. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Release/3.7.5.288516

Lei Nguya wrote: So on 2 of my avis i have issue with textures refreshing or reloading over an over again, there fine then go blurry. on 1 of my accounts my main one there fine, i have no texture issues at all, Iv tried differnt viewers iv done clean installs an log on the problem avis only with a fresh clean cache an still same thing, log on my main account an all is fine. All have same graphic settings, the problems accounts even half smaller inventory under 5K of items. I tried turning off http textures iv tried changing numbers in some the texture settings in debug menu, nothing i do seems to fix this. This really makes no sence at all to me how some avis have this issue an others dont. does anyone have other idea of how to fix this texture issue? or know why this even happens to begin with ? Do the problem avatars use any attachments that you use texture-change HUD's for and do you keep the HUD's attached? On at least some HUD's like that the textures in them are loaded into video memory all the time and they can use up so much of the available video memory you'll see thrashing like that.. I've heard of it happening with Toddledoo clothing HUD's, for instance.

Cuddly Waffle wrote: Hellooo. I've been having issues since about 3am slt - my mesh attachments are not loading properly and causing a ton of script errors. The items are not related at all - different stores, etc. My regular viewer is singularity which i have cache cleared and uninstalled/reinstalled, and also i have tried the SL viewer, and while I can't see any script errors, the items are still not loading properly. Is here any known issue? Thankyou p.s The script errors aren't actually causing "Errors" - it just alerts me that there is one, but the details are blank. The "script error" icons are probably just indicating that a mesh hasn't completely loaded. The "Viewer 2" icon set includes a specific icon for this situation (a small yellow pyramid) but I think that viewers that use the "Viewer 1" icons use the "Script error" icon for the incomplete mesh situation because there's no icon for meshes in that icon set.

sirhc DeSantis wrote: Well harsh responses or not, the part where the OP says '... and since lightning rarely strikes twice, tranfered my REAL trove of lindens to the recently attacked avie...' strikes me as - hmmm better not say:) Lets settle for foolish, especially as this would have been done after, by OPs account, having the hijacking reported to the Lab... Also, why would an 'attacker' set the password back so the OP could get into the account to do so anyway? Interesting fact, too - if meteorological lightning strikes one place, it's actually quite likely that it will strike that place again. http://www.weatherimagery.com/blog/lightning-strike-twice/

Enne Windlow wrote: I have tried running Second Life and two third party viewers having done clean re-installs for each, each time. On initial running the viewer seems to be fine, good fps, good movements. After about an hour, sometimes less if lots of things looked at (think it's graphics related maybe cache) my screen freezes. It is like what happens when your pc suddenly starts doing an update in the background, you get frozen pictures then you lag and find yourself a few million miles on the sim elsewhere. eventually this escalates bad enough that I crash, and log in at the last proper 'log out' location. specs: CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 Processor (3400.02 MHz) Memory: 3328 MB OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 32-bit Service Pack 1 (Build 7601) Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc. Graphics Card: AMD Radeon HD 7800 Series Windows Graphics Driver Version: 8.17.0010.1247 OpenGL Version: 4.2.12618 Compatibility Profile Context 13.251.0.0 I had an issue a while back where I needed to open a dos window and increase some kind of cache but I can't remembe what that was for or why, the problem I had back then was fabulously fixed, but this new problem seems graphics related i believe, maybe, just doesn't produce the same crash message, i have no crash message, just the symptoms i've described. hope you can help. thanks in advance to any who reply. Enne. If at some point you've edited your RenderVolumeLODFactor to increase it, change it back to the default. You may need to lower your graphics settings in general and avoid moving the camera a lot in areas with lots of avatars as well. Since you've got a 32-bit operating system you're limited in the amount of memory Second Life has available to it and on your machine you'll have SL crash on you if it uses more than about 1.6 gigabytes of memory. If you have your settings turned up high it will burn through that much memory pretty quickly in a crowded area. If you go to the "Develop" menu and select "Show Info" - "Show Memory" you can see how much memory the viewer is using.

Gwyneth Llewelyn wrote: Monty, Thanks for the clarification. Not being a professional programmer, and unfamiliar with the viewer code (the last time I looked at it and managed to compile it was for 1.7.X.... eons ago ), I was relying on some rumour I heard that most of the CHUI code is rendered using the built-in web browser, fully integrated in the UI. I tried to track down the place where I had read that, but couldn't find it. This was what led me to believe that Internet Plugins might play a role in it: if CHUI launches somehow some of the browser code, then it might launch the associated plugins as well, and some strange condition might make it respond the way it does (unlike the old non-CHUI code). May I safely assume that this rumour I heard is wrong and that the CHUI code has absolutely nothing to do with the embedded web browser, then? The truth is that, as you predicted, even without Internet Plugins, the keystroke delay issue is still present — I've tested it yesterday. The difference, perhaps, is that it takes far longer to manifest — 20-30 minutes in my case, as opposed to 2-3 minutes or even "instantly" as before. It could be a coincidence, which deluded me in believing the issues were related. I realize now that they probably aren't. Pushing that idea away, I still have a much odder theory to test — coming from another piece of rumour, which I couldn't track down by googling for it — that is related to how CHUI required a change on the graphics rendering pipeline. In some of my tests, it seemed that I could postpone the moment when the chat lag/keypress delay hit by reducing the available memory for graphics. This is certainly odd, and I have to make sure I can replicate that consistently, even though there is a theory that would support that behaviour. Right now it was something I just noticed by mere chance: when installing a CHUI-capable viewer, either LL's or TPVs, and "forget" to set the graphics memory slider to the maximum (172 MB in my case, as opposed to the "default" 64 MB, which is all that SL thinks that my old Radeon X1600 has...), the bug doesn't seem to appear. But I really need to try this out some more; I labeled it just as "coincidence" during my testing... It's very possible the problem isn't with CHUI, but with another recent change that only affects Mac users - the viewer was re-written to use the new Cocoa Mac programming framework instead of the old Carbon framework which was previously used and which Apple is trying hard to kill off. Cocoa viewer users have had a number of issues with keyboard input, such as movement and hotkey use. CHUI was added to the LL viewer in version 3.5; the change to Cocoa happened with version 3.6.5. With Firestorm's longer release schedule they went straight from 4.4.2 (no CHUI, no Cocoa) to 4.5.1 (yes CHUI, yes Cocoa - I'm fighting the urge to make some sort of candy bar pun for fear of being sued by Android.) It would be interesting to see if you see the same issues with LL Viewer 3.6.4, the last version that had CHUI but didn't have Cocoa. I'm not sure if it was formally blocked yet - the download still seems to be available. If you try loading it make sure the automatic update option in Preferences is turned off. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Release/3.6.4.280048

Deltango Vale wrote: While I am horrified at the prospect of Facebook buying Second Life, it would make sense. The ancient technology of SL is not important. What's important is the brand, the history, the userbase and the experience of Linden Lab's employees in managing a full-scale political economy. Needless to say, the ancient technology of Facebook (including its lousy interface) has not impeded its success. Indeed all those things are very important factors in anyone buying SL - all of them NEGATIVE factors. It would be utter lunacy for Facebook to buy Second Life - old, high-maintenance code; old, high-maintenance hardware; old, high-maintenance users. None of them well suited for a large influx of new casual users. If Facebook's looking to get into virtual worlds I'd bet they'd go after High Fidelity. New technology designed for distributed computing and an emphasis on "augmentation" rather than "immersion" and with a strong bias toward the virtual-reality hardware they've just made a large investment in.

Ayesha Askham wrote: I seriously doubt that simply removing/re-creating the Firestorm bridge would have such an effect, it may have been a setting on the RLVa operating in connection with the furniture, but otherwise it may simply have been a glitch in your connection with SL as you logged in that was causing issues. I have to say that in three years of using Phoenix and Firestorm viewers I have not had such a problem, and I take issue with people who promulgate distrust in that viewer. The bridge and its LSL script would have no function in any other viewer. As with so many transient issues in SL, a relog can seem to have miraculous effects! If you have the Phoenix/Firestorm bridge attached, ever, it will stay attached until you consciously removie it, and the scripts will run. If you're wearing it while using another viewer it will run just long enough to check to see if you're using Firestorm - if you are it will perform its characteristic functions and if you aren't, it SHOULD go to sleep for the rest of that session. It's been known to glitch though. The Firestorm JIRA has quite a few reports of the bridge causing issues that even the developers don't expect it to that are fixed by recreating it.

Shannon Blackheart wrote: I've had this problem for over a week and have not received any kind of response to my original question to LL. No changes on me or my avatar but suddenly I'm just "sitting" on pose balls. There is no "Animate your avatar?" question. I've taken off my AO (even though that wasn't a problem before), and the question is not hidden behind any other box on the screen. I originally stripped down to just a body and still could not get my own furniture to work. I un installed SL, then reinstalled and everything worked again. THAT lasted for a day, and then it was messed up again. I used Firestorm and went back to SL and some "bridge" came with me that worked for about 4 days. NOW, I'm back to the same problem. I cannot be the only person having this problem! Any suggestions? A popular furniture poseball system was written so that it wouldn't ask you permission to animate you if you've previously used that poseball, even if the furniture had been stopped previously. This was for convenience. However, recently changes were made to the "Stop Animating Me"viewer menu command to fight a griefing issue but had the side-effect of disrupting this poseball system. If you've used "Stop Animating Me" on the region your furniture is it will take away the animation permission from anything you've granted permission to now, but this furniture system won't ask you permission again because it thinks you already gave it permission. The work-around would be to have someone else sit on the ball you want to use and then stand up. Then you can sit on the ball - it should ask you for animation permission again, as you become a "new user" of that poseball after someone else sits on it. Once you grant it permission again it should work normally - just be careful with the "Stop animating me" command. Another, slower way is to edit the object and choose "Restart scripts" from the "Build" menu. I think this will only work on things you can modify though.

Layla Taov wrote: I have noticed that my traffic is decreasing lately but I have had more people coming so it should be increasing. Is there a bug or something in the system? The traffic score is based on the amount of time avatars spend on your lot as well as the raw number. A large number of avatars staying a short time can give you a lower traffic score than a small number of avatars staying for a long time.

MizzFuzzyMoran wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: MizzFuzzyMoran wrote: this judgment seems to open the door to litigation against organizations that inaccurately use ip addresses to identify individuals for disciplinary maintenance and management purposes i understand allot of forums use ip bans and this ruling would put the forum admins and owners in the firing line from those who have been adversely affected by forum bans i can see allot of forums quietly undoing existing bans hoping those they have banned wont notice that they can access those sites again That case is about issuing a subpoena, which is a legal action that is meant to be served to a specific person. A forum IP ban is an attempt to mitigate a nuisance coming from a certain internet location - whether the nuisance is caused by one person or forty at that location doesn't mean vinegar to a rabbit. You'll just have to keep finding new ones... are you related to the corrupt turkish idiot theresa he used the same ineffectual blunderbuss of an approach to try to oppress the innocent he failed too Yeah, blunderbusses are notoriously inaccurate. Like the "ad avatarem attack in response to a legal point which you can't address" blunderbuss.

MizzFuzzyMoran wrote: this judgment seems to open the door to litigation against organizations that inaccurately use ip addresses to identify individuals for disciplinary maintenance and management purposes i understand allot of forums use ip bans and this ruling would put the forum admins and owners in the firing line from those who have been adversely affected by forum bans i can see allot of forums quietly undoing existing bans hoping those they have banned wont notice that they can access those sites again That case is about issuing a subpoena, which is a legal action that is meant to be served to a specific person. A forum IP ban is an attempt to mitigate a nuisance coming from a certain internet location - whether the nuisance is caused by one person or forty at that location doesn't mean vinegar to a rabbit. You'll just have to keep finding new ones...

CmpZ wrote: I'm new to SL & was showing it to a friend in the hopes that he'd make his own account. He asked how it differs from Minecraft. Neither of us have played Minecraft, but we know people who have (including his nephew). For me, it's one of those questions whose answer is obvious but difficult to articulate. I pointed out that SL isn't a game & that a big part of it is building. He pointed out that people build things in Minecraft, too. He also pointed out that from what he's seen, building in Minecraft is easier than building in SL, though I pointed out that I'm new & still don't know many good building techniques. Thanks for your time & help. P.S. I know that I've heard other questions like that, where I feel that the answer is obvious but when someone presses me on it, I can't explain. Wish I could think of some of those to use as examples here. Anyway, thanks in advance for your replies. Building in Minecraft is the equivalent of building in LEGO (and here I mean no disrespect to either Minecraft or LEGO.) Building in Second Life is the equivalent of having a fairly complete set of construction tools and the ability to contract with outside equipment suppliers and skilled trades. It's far more complicated but also gives you far more options.

MizzFuzzyMoran wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Ayesha Askham wrote: Drake I don't know, this being an American website, whether irony is ever practiced, because I thought MissFuzzyMoran might have been using it in her response...I have been told that Americans don't "do" irony. It would be ironic if an American told you this. Or would it be? whether they are american or not most people dont know the correct meaning of irony and cant distinguish it from sarcasm or even simple mockery And what IS the correct meaning of "irony", Mizz Moran?

Celestiall Nightfire wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: Celestiall Nightfire wrote: Also, I don't like some choices other people make, but I firmly support the right of others to be able to make their own life choices. That's key to having inherent rights. I'm an atheist, and we're discriminated against all the time (in particular in the Midwest where I live) Yet, I don't want a society where peope are forced to associate with me if they don't wish to. Nor, to be forced to sell to me if they don't wish to do so. If there was a "Christian" baker who would refuse to sell me a cake (wedding or otherwise) due to me being an atheist, I'd be OK with that. It would be their right. I assume then that you inform anyone you do business with of your status as an atheist yes? Because otherwise, wouldn't you be trampling on their right to discriminate against you? Not all unpopular groups can be easily closeted. I have a scarlet letter A emblazoned on my forehead. ; ) There's no need for any possible unpopular group to announce themselves. Unless there's an explicit verbal or written notice no one needs to say that they're Jewish, gay, deaf, lesbian, communist, PETA member, Republican, or that they listen to Justin Beiber. Theresa Tennyson wrote: On the subject of "inherent rights", where do they come FROM? You don't believe in a supernatural source, so they must have come about from the thoughts of humans. A real-life version of Celestiall would have marketly different rights today than she would have had 200 years ago - she would have gained the right to vote, but she would have lost the right to keep chattel slaves (depending on what state she lived in.) If rights change, how can they be "inherent"? 200 years hundred years ago I would have had the same rights. Rights don't change. What changes is human understanding and recognition of those rights. Rights don't come "from" somewhere, they're inherent to humans as sentient beings. Back when we had slavery, all humans had the inherent right to be free. But, the reason for slavery was due to some people ignoring or not understanding those inherent rights. In the past people didn't understand germ theory or science. But, that doesn't mean that germ theory or science didn't exist, it just means that human knowledge hadn't evolved enough for people to understand it. Our knowledge is cumulative, when one studies philosophy you can see the knowledge progression through the timeline, and see when humans gained enough cumulative understanding to start writing about our inherent (natural) rights. It still took several more hundred years for enough people to understand this important philosophical thought evolution. "Germ theory" didn't exist before humans created it - the things we know as germs existed, and did what they do, which appears to be accurately described by a theory developed by Louis Pasteur, et al. "Science" is the process of trying to find out information about the physical world around us and was born sometime in the unrecorded past when a monkey picked up a rock to see what was under it. The physical world and its processes that science attempts to describe were there before, but "science" isn't a thing. However, I now understand you better and apologize for this debate. Libertarianism is your religion. Rights and freedom are metaphysical concepts, eternals like the Holy Spirit. The Market, the Invisible Hand, is a mystic force for good like Vishnu or the Christian view of "post-Resurrection" Jesus of Nazareth. Adam Smith and Ludwig von Mieses are your Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine. And I know better than to try to debate someone about their religious beliefs.