The elephant in the room?

[Brighterthansunshine]

I make adult furniture for SL residents.
Nothing too risky, just vanilla flavoured sex beds and sofas with a small in world store and a store on the Marketplace.  The Marketplace is a great tool for merchants but it has a MASSIVE flaw.

People forget to enable 'Adult' when they log on. I have questioned many, many clients and they tell me this is the case. I've done this myself.

My sales take a nose dive when items have been flagged and are forced into the adult category, seriously damaging my sales by AT LEAST 50%. Merchants are forced to play cat and mouse, sneaking their adult items back into the general category, risking the listing being deleted permanently. This is a constant nightmare having to check several times a day to see that items have not been removed. I suspect that the people doing the flagging are people who are in my position, frustrated that Marketplace does not offer a level playing field to sellers. The problem is self perpetuating and unfair to everyone in this category. There is always plenty of sex furniture for sale in the general category at any time

Here's the solution.
When logging onto MP there should be a welcome screen with UNDER 21/OVER 21 access buttons. This will sort the adults from the teenagers.

Better still, Make SL for adults and reintroduce/re market the teen grid to the under 18's. And let peace reign once more.

Any thoughts?

[Tari Landar]

---

Brighterthansunshine wrote:

I make adult furniture for SL residents.

Nothing too risky, just vanilla flavoured sex beds and sofas with a small in world store and a store on the Marketplace.  The Marketplace is a great tool for merchants but it has a MASSIVE flaw.

 

People forget to enable 'Adult' when they log on.

I have questioned many, many clients and they tell me this is the case. I've done this myself.

 

My sales take a nose dive when items have been flagged and are forced into the adult category, seriously damaging my sales by AT LEAST 50%. Merchants are forced to play cat and mouse, sneaking their adult items back into the general category, risking the listing being deleted permanently. This is a constant nightmare having to check several times a day to see that items have not been removed. I suspect that the people doing the flagging are people who are in my position, frustrated that Marketplace does not offer a level playing field to sellers. The problem is self perpetuating and unfair to everyone in this category. There is always plenty of sex furniture for sale in the general category at any time

 

Here's the solution.

When logging onto MP there should be a welcome screen with UNDER 21/OVER 21 access buttons. This will sort the adults from the teenagers.

 

Better still, Make SL for adults and reintroduce/re market the teen grid to the under 18's. And let peace reign once more.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

---

My first thought it that you really shouldn't be making a public post stating that you intend to break the rules and this is how you're going to do it...and hope you don't get caught.

My second thought is that, while yes a lot of people forget to check the adult option too, there are plenty of merchants who sell adult rated stuff on marketplace with very little issues(beyond what the rest of us go through that is). So I can't really say it's a flaw of the marketplace that people are forgetful, that's a human flaw and can't be blamed on the system.

I find it a little bit odd that you complain about your items being flagged and forced into an adult category. If they are adult items, they aren't being forced anywhere, that's where they belong, period. Any adult items I have ever sold have ALWAYS been put in the adult category. I don't know why you would believe your items don't deserve to be there with the rest of the adult rated items. None of us are that special We're all supposed to abide by the same listing guidelines. Sure plenty of folks don't, and some even get away with it, for a little bit, but that doesn't make their actions right. So all that "other" sex furniture you see in places it doesn't belong, isn't a good thing, either. In fact you can do something about that too, by flagging them, if you so choose (my guess is you don't though, since you just said, you're an offender, lol, you're contributing to your own dilemna by doing that though). There is nothing at all unfair about having a specific category(adult) and requiring that items that fall under this category be placed there. I don't understand why you think it's unfair. It's a perfectly level playing field. The options are there for a reason, whether we like them or not. If we choose to use this selling tool we're given, we're supposed to abide by the rules. It's bad enough when LL can't even keep their own thoughts straight on it, but when merchants decide they get to do whatever they want, it just makes things worse.

I think a better choice would be to make those options(aka the adult option) perhaps a bit more noticable on login, yes. Don't really need an over 21/under 21 button, because there are plenty of adults who don't want adult rated items in their searches. With  the way people mis-list things and put things in the wrong places, not to mention how screwed up search in general is...I don't blame them. Anything we can do to help our searches actually return relevent stuff, is probably a good thing. I don't think we should judge the maturity rating some adults choose, or don't choose the way you have. It's really none of anyone's business why some folks simply don't want those rated items in their searches. I sort of like that we have options. Sl is a pretty diverse world, whether it's filled with adults or a mix of adults and teenagers. Gotta allow some room for others to make choices you might not.

[Brighterthansunshine]

Aaaaaa! Eutopia!!!!

You say:

"I find it a little bit odd that you complain about your items being flagged and forced into an adult category. If they are adult items, they aren't being forced anywhere, that's where they belong, period. Any adult items I have ever sold have ALWAYS been put in the adult category. I don't know why you would believe your items don't deserve to be there with the rest of the adult rated items. None of us are that special **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt=":smileywink:" title="Smiley Wink" /> We're all supposed to abide by the same listing guidelines."

But human nature dictates that we don't.

And as long as the MP allows people to 'cheat' the system people will. Sad but true. And this is being done on a huge scale, by major players in this catagory.

So, whilst it might be nice to have scruples, it is also very damaging to any business that trys to play by the rules.

[Ariel Vuissent]

Your complaint invalidates itself. You complain that your adult items are being marked as adult and moved to the adult category - where they rightfully belong. Then you complain that others have listing similar to yours that belong in the adult category, but they don't put them there, so why you should have to do so and then "lose out" on they market they're getting. Then you say that human nature dictates that we violate the rules, so it's not really your fault at all - rules are made to be broken, and all that.

So essentially, you're saying that since nobody else abides by the rules, you shouldn't have to either? (Ignoring all those merchants who do abide by the rules.) Frankly, I think you'll be lucky if no one goes over to the marketplace and reports any item they see out of place. A sex bed - "vanilla" or not - is an adult item that belongs in the adult category. Period. If you see items similar to yours that are not marked as adult, you can certainly feel free to report those items. Then they will also be moved where they belong - to the adult category. An argument that says "everybody cheats the rules and it's not fair so I'm gonna cheat too" is just plain childish.

Which isn't to say I don't see, maybe even agree with, the issue. No one should be able to cheat by simply sticking their items in a category in which they do not belong, but you're right, people do it all the time. That doesn't make it right, and that doesn't mean that everyone should jump on the "let's cheat the rules" bandwagon. So good luck with that.

[Brighterthansunshine]

You say this:

"Then you complain that others have listing similar to yours that belong in the adult category, but they don't put them there, so why you should have to do so and then "lose out" on they market they're getting."

I think you answered my question!!!

And yet, you still miss the point.

This is not an even playing field... If I log on as a customer and forget to enable 'adult' and search for 'Sex Bed' I will see quite a few sex beds in the general catagory. As this customer, I will assume that this is all that is available and either: Buy one of the few on offer, or go in world and search for a better selection, or just not bother.. thinking there is not much choice, thus depriving MP of their commision.

 

I really have no wish to corrupt young minds. But this current system is inept in this catagory and benefits no one

[Tari Landar]

---

Brighterthansunshine wrote:

Aaaaaa! Eutopia!!!!

You say:

"I find it a little bit odd that you complain about your items being flagged and forced into an adult category. If they are adult items, they aren't being forced anywhere, that's where they belong, period. Any adult items I have ever sold have ALWAYS been put in the adult category. I don't know why you would believe your items don't deserve to be there with the rest of the adult rated items. None of us are that special **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt=":smileywink:" title="Smiley Wink" /> We're all supposed to abide by the same listing guidelines."

But human nature dictates that we don't.

And as long as the MP allows people to 'cheat' the system people will. Sad but true. And this is being done on a huge scale, by major players in this catagory.

So, whilst it might be nice to have scruples, it is also very damaging to any business that trys to play by the rules.

---

You don't make a lick of sense. I find it more than nice to have scruples. I find it sad that others choose not to, including yourself. I don't find it damaging to play by the rules. Lots of people break rules, laws even, but that doesn't mean we all should. I did, quite clearly, state that plenty of people do "cheat", but that doesn't make them right. It's not living in eutopia to think this way, lol. It's not "human nature" to break the rules, human nature does not dictate that we  *have* to or *should* do this. Our choices, as humans, dictate what we do, and don't do. I think you'll find that while there are plenty of folks who do break the rules, there are probably a lot more that don't. You just don't notice them, because you're looking in the wrong places.

I've had my items flagged and removed from MP for all sorts of reasons, only once for the adult content. But that was entirely my fault, I checked the wrong box, as it was an adult item and should have been there anyway. I've had things flagged for "wrong words"(aka words on the naught list LL won't share with us), wrong category, wrong keywords, etc.. All pretty easily fixed. Frustrating? Yeah, it can be. But it would be a little less so if you didn't do things to intentionally have these actions taken against you. Like I said, you're contributing to your own dilemna.

[Tari Landar]

---

Brighterthansunshine wrote:

You say this:

"Then you complain that others have listing similar to yours that belong in the adult category, but they don't put them there, so why you should have to do so and then "lose out" on they market they're getting."

I think you answered my question!!!

And yet, you still miss the point.

This is not an even playing field... If I log on as a customer and forget to enable 'adult' and search for 'Sex Bed' I will see quite a few sex beds in the general catagory. As this customer, I will assume that this is all that is available and either: Buy one of the few on offer, or go in world and search for a better selection, or just not bother.. thinking there is not much choice, thus depriving MP of their commision.

 

I really have no wish to corrupt young minds. But this current system is inept in this catagory and benefits no one

---

If you forget to check the right options, you've only yourself to blame...period. Don't blame the system when you fail to use it properly. The options are there-and while they *could be made more noticable, it's not as if they are completely hidden and we have to click multiple links to find them. . How is it the lab's fault that people CHOOSE to break the rules and make the playing field "uneven"? That's a rhetorical question, no need to answer. You seem to not get that you're causing the very problem you're complaining about, not the lab. It's the folks breaking the rules that ought to be blamed.

[Brighterthansunshine]

Ok, I checked your MP store, and you have NO adult items listed, so you're just blowing hot air.

 

And you seem to be missing the point entirely!!!

 

If there was a true adult section, policed by MP I would be ecstatic. But there isn't. So I have to play bt the same rules that everyone else in this sector plays by, or just give in and lose half my revenue.

That doesn't seem to 'make a lick of sense' to me...

 

 

[Ariel Vuissent]

I think you're underestimating the intelligence of the average marketplace user. It's not that I miss your point; I understand your point just fine. I just don't believe that most marketplace users "forget" to enable Adult in search. I, for one, enabled Adult once and now don't have to mess with it at all unless I really want to narrow down my results. Sure, some marketplace users might get confused and not realize that once they're age verified, they still have to enable themselves to see adult items. Most probably figure it out after one or two searches that turn up just a tiny number of the things they want to see. Others don't. I don't think that most people will do multiple searches, find a tiny number of items for each, and figure that's all there is.

You may be missing my point, which is that sex beds shouldn't ever be listed under general in the first place. The answer is NOT to just list all sex beds in the general category, or for merchants to sneak around and cheat the system in order to get their own items there too. That is, at it's core, using the excuse of "Well, he/she did it first!" which most people grow out of no later than about the age of 12. Hopefully sooner. The answer is for LL to tighten down on their listing guidelines and their perusal of items, and for customers and competing merchants to rigorously but correctly and fairly report listings that violate the listing guidelines - such as sex beds in the general category.

As I said before, your point about the problem with cheating the system is valid, but your solution to cheat it yourself is not.

ETA: It's not that difficult to click a button. A four-year-old could choose "OVER 21." Instead, it might be better for age verified members to automatically have adult content enabled. Unfortunately, those who do NOT want to see adult content but are age verified, for whatever reason, would then automatically be exposed to adult content in which they have no interest and by which they might be offended. So either way, someone is negatively affected.

Or perhaps those who are age verified could be shown the option, upon first entering the marketplace, to choose "see all content" or "see only G-rated content."

[Brighterthansunshine]

Yes, In an IDEAL WORLD that would be so... but we live in a less that ideal world and my sales figure speak for themselves!!!

And please don't patronise me with:

"The answer is NOT to just list all sex beds in the general category, or for merchants to sneak around and cheat the system in order to get their own items there too. That is, at it's core, using the excuse of "Well, he/she did it first!" which most people grow out of no later than about the age of 12."

 

This is happening. We'd all like it not to be happening, but this is just like the real world. It is. Grow up.

[Jennifer Boyle]

---

Brighterthansunshine wrote:

So, whilst it might be nice to have scruples, it is also very damaging to any business that trys to play by the rules.

---

It is nice to have them.  You might try acquiring some.  It is usually more lucrative to violate the rules than to abide by them, but conscientious people do it anyway because it's more important to them to do right than to make more money.  One cannot help but wonder if a merchant who is willing to cheat about listing his products might exaggerate their quality and value.  After all, isn't it damaging to business to describe products accurately instead?

The choice to see adult items is sticky, so you only have to choose once---presumably until you use a different browser or computer, and I'll bet most of use don't switch often.  I know that I was searching MP and wondered why I wasn't finding what I was seeking, and then I noticed that I had not chosen to search for adult items.  I selected all levels, and not it's that way every time I go onto MP.  I think most SLers are smart enough to figure it out after a few minutes and repeat the search.

[Brighterthansunshine]

TY Jenifer, the voice of reason...

Couldn't agree with you more!

[Jennifer Boyle]

I actually made an error in my post.  I first posted that the choice to see all items was not sticky, because that's what I remembered.  After posting, I decided to check, and I found that it was sticky.  I edited my post to reflect that, hoping no one would read it before I posted the edited version.  No such luck.

Moral:  Check facts before posting instead of after!

[Tari Landar]

---

Brighterthansunshine wrote:

Ok, I checked your MP store, and you have NO adult items listed, so you're just blowing hot air.

 

And you seem to be missing the point entirely!!!

 

If there was a true adult section, policed by MP I would be ecstatic. But there isn't. So I have to play bt the same rules that everyone else in this sector plays by, or just give in and lose half my revenue.

That doesn't seem to 'make a lick of sense' to me...

 

 

---

Yes because criminals always prosper, so that's always the route you should go? If your revenue has to come by breaking the rules/law, something tells me there's something seriously wrong with your marketing skills.

You're right, i don't have any adult items right now. That doesn't mean I never have.

[Brighterthansunshine]

LOL!!! Criminals???

It is always very worrying when people cannot grasp the basics of an argument. LL imposed a very bizzare ratings system on a very lucrative COMMERCIAL site, which exists to make money. It is not a charity. We all benefit from a healthy economy based on fair trading rules.

SL is not an airy fairy charity. If it were not for merchants making a healthy profit, sl and rl, none of us would exist on heer to chew the cud.

[Brighterthansunshine]

Ashamed to be associated with me? lol

[Zanara Zenovka]

Those who want to see adult can enable it and it sticks. Search even warns you that you can see more if you increase your maturity level.

It's really not that hard.

[Ariel Vuissent]

My point precisely. What could have been an intellectual debate has instead degenerated into a useless arguement and defamation match, from which I shall shortly take my leave.

My intention was not to patronize, but to point out the fairly elementary fact that "two wrongs do not make a right." Just because many other people see fit to break the rules does not mean that you, or anyone else, should join them. The attitude that you should is, indeed, quite childish. I quite firmly agree with Jennifer - it may make you more money to have no morals and to cheat the rules, but it's also a fairly good sign of a dishonest seller.

Your continued dismissal of everyone who has disagreed with you so far tells me that you came only to state your own opinion, which you feel is fact, and not to engage in any kind of intelligent debate or conversation about how the system could be improved. Good luck with that.

[Tari Landar]

---

Brighterthansunshine wrote:

LOL!!! Criminals???

It is always very worrying when people cannot grasp the basics of an argument. LL imposed a very bizzare ratings system on a very lucrative COMMERCIAL site, which exists to make money. It is not a charity. We all benefit from a healthy economy based on fair trading rules.

SL is not an airy fairy charity. If it were not for merchants making a healthy profit, sl and rl, none of us would exist on heer to chew the cud.

---

Wth are you talking about dude? Plenty of people do just peachy within the limits we're given. The fact that you cannot do so, without breaking the rules, speaks poorly of you, not the system.

 

Editing to add:

Your post(s) thus far..to this point, have nothing at all to do with the rating system, which is something entirely different from the MATURITY rating. The maturity rating is NOT BROKE. The people that are using it the wrong way, are the ones that are broke, well maybe their idea of morals, ethics and such are really broke anyway. The system itself actually works the way it should(as far as this particular topic goes, the system *does have flaws, this isn't one of them). I'm not one to speak super highly of LL most times, but when they deserve props, they get them. The search is borked beyone belief. MP has issues out the wazoo. But the maturity rating is pretty straight forward. You're basically telling us that, without breaking rules, you can't make money. How exactly is that telling us how the system itself has failed? Yeah, I don't get it, feel free to dumb it down for me. It sounds to me like you(and other merchants who choose to break rules just to make money) are in the failboat category, not the system(heh, for once).

I've been a merchant longer than I care to remember sometimes(like frustrating times when the system actually DOES fail) and I can tell you that, when you use the system to your advantage, the way it's intended to be used(despite what others may do..the whole "if everyone jumped off a bridge" thing applies here), it won't fail you nearly as often as you seem to think it will. Does that mean you can sit back and let the system work for you? Heck no. It DOES fail sometimes, it DOES have issues, it DOES need work.. But following the rules isn't exactly a death sentence and shouldn't be treated as such.

[Betty Briand]

you are getting worked up over nothing.

residents that don't notice they don't have mature/adult checked after the first page of buying furniture, aren't your target group anyway.

[Madeliefste Oh]

---

Brighterthansunshine wrote:

Merchants are forced to play cat and mouse, sneaking their adult items back into the general category, risking the listing being deleted permanently. This is a constant nightmare having to check several times a day to see that items have not been removed.

---

It is a nightmare created by the persons who choose to play the game like this themselfves. Nobody forces merchants to sneak their adult items back to the general category. The only force that drives them is greed.

This 

opportunism

is spoiling my fun.I don't want to find shoes or houses when I'm looking for a handbag. Neither do I want to find adult items when I switch off the adult button. It makes searching the marketplace ineffective for the whole shopping community.

All that time you spend on checking if your items are still in the wrong category, you could also spend on making some general items for the general category. Then you don't have to fear anymore and can you free yourself from the nightmare the marketplace has become for you.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I am not a prude and have been age verified from the beginning, but there are times when I filter out adult items in my marketplace search because I don't want them mixed in with the items I'm actually looking for that have nothing to do with adult ratings.  People may have children in the room that can see their screen when searching marketplace and don't want the kids exposed to adult items.  Adult items belong in an adult section!

Breaking rules just because everyone else does it is not only the thinking of a child but wrong period.  If that's the only way you can be a success then I have to think your products may not stand on their own merits.

I find it very interesting that you created an account to make this post on the forum. It must be because you know that this is wrong and are hiding who you are to avoid consequences out of pure greed, OR,  you don't want us to look at your products and possibly  tell you that there are other reasons people favor other creator's products.  Either way it speaks volumes.

[Lasher Oh]

I can see where your coming from but I recommend you just  put everything that is adult related and almost adult in the top category. Forget trying to technically beat the system. There are too many snitches out there who revel in beating you up, and make a hobby of it. And there is no sense in wasting time beating yourself up continually checking if your items have been snitched on or not.

A lot of my products fall into the adult section and I have never really suffered poor sales because of that. But then  there is no way for me to sensibly track the sales I don't make.So I don't worry over those.

Since the Commerce team introduced persistent maturity preferences, it's been fine - naturally I keep mine permanently on see the lot because I'm a big boy and I want to see all that this wonderful world has on offer. I hate all censorship and wouldn't dream of filtering my own access unless it was to expediate a particular search.

However  there are many who for their own legitimate reasons, prefer to have such controls and that's fine by me too. So instead of trying to dodge the rules by sticking bits of tape over naughty bits in my product shots, so that an adult or risqué outfit  can be 'legitimately' displayed in the general section. I  go out of my way to place items in the  'adult' category even veering towards that when the item could fall into general. I completely ignore the M category because I believe it is a total confusing farce, but that's a long story of idiot planning by LL lawyers that was outwith the commerce teams control.

For those listings that do fall into the  general category I place a simple reminder in the descriptions that states "Don't forget to enable mature content in order to see our full product range"

Seems to have worked for the last couple of years (finger crossed)

Happy new trading year to one and all!

^L^

[PeterCanessa Oh]

1. You can choose to break the rules - don't come crying to use if/when you get caught
2. You can choose to report others that break the rules - and help clean things up
3. You almost certainly DON'T make adult furniture
4. Your perfectly normal-looking furniture probably has some adult animations in it
5. Have you thought of advertising your perfectly normal furniture in General (with a note that adult options are available)?

[Garvie Garzo]

I wish there were sections of the mp as well, so that when I am looking for one category of thing, I don't need to wade through ads for so many other things. For that reason alone, I very much appreciate the ability to not have to see adult items, and I leave it turned off.

LL for their part reminds me quite frequently that I would see more stuff (as above - NOT my goal) if I would only re-enable it. So while I can totally appreciate your frustration with other merchants seeming non-compliance IF you have convinced yourself (or are even suspicious that the reason for low sales is customers having difficulty finding your product), I very much doubt that the reason they are having difficulty finding your beds is that they are unaware that they should turn on the adult setting. It might be the case that with it on, there is simply so much more stuff on view (which again, is why I leave mine off) making it less likely that your items will bob to the surface in an ocean of stuff for sale. If this theory is correct, then you would do better to petition LL to allow people to turn OFF general and moderate and search only in the adult ratings. Except I doubt that they will go for that.

At any rate believe me, LL is doing their part to make people aware of the settings. They seem to want shoppers to see as much as possible on every log in.