TOS on sculptie maps make it impossible to use

[KittyCat Ninetails]

I make decanters and drinks.  Its not all I make, but its mostly what I make.  I make a decanter full of drinks and sell it.  The new owner is NOT the maker of the decanter..but is the owner.

The way decanters (and anything else that dispenses anything) in second life works is this.  The decanter can be any permissions you want.  The drink inside MUST be copy and transferable in order for it to work.  If the drink is transfer only...the decanter will only ever give out one drink.  If the drink is copy only, then only the new owner of the decanter can ever get a drink from it.

I just went on the marketplace and was looking at sculpties.  Someone is selling a tea set full perm.  Their tos says quote:

Feel free to use them in any of your creations. You can change the textures, build anything with them .You can sell or give away objects that you made with the sculpt map textures, only when it is with other objects. You are not allowed to sell or give away the objects with copy and transfer rights or with full perms.

Violation of above conditions will force a DMCA notice on you.

This means that ANYONE who buys this teapot will be in violation of the TOS and subject to having a DMCA filed against them.  There is no way I would ever buy their stuff.  I cannot afford to have a DMCA filed against me or even the threat of one.  But..I am finding this kind of TOS everywhere on alot of sculptie makers stuff.

Why are people having this kind of TOS on their items?  Especially when the item in question, in order to be used in a commercial build, must ...absolutely MUST be given away or sold with copy AND transfer rights to the final build.  Also..what are they so afraid of?  I can see protecting the map and the texture..but the final build?  It is my build and is it not my choice how I dispense it?

[Pamela Galli]

This is how I handle the problem:  Let's say I have a lovely shrimp cocktail with shrimps I bought. Touch one, you get a shrimp.  However, you don't get that lovely sculpted shrimp -- you get a very nice shrimp that I made myself.

 

The only things I "give" copy trans on touch are things I have made myself (and yes, my things do show up in other's "creations").  Oh and I make them no mod and sometimes temp.

I don't want anyone handing out my creations copy trans, so I don't do it to others. That's fair.

[Dartagan Shepherd]

Going a bit fuzzy and don't have the time to login and look yet, but hopefully this gets you closer ...

You can have a copy only decanter that gives out no copy/mod drinks. I believe a no mod script inside the drink will keep the object no modify, but you've also got to set permissions when the drink is on the ground, change the permissions while it's in inventory and then pack it into your decanter.

The new permissions won't kick in when you've packed it that way until the first time the drink is rezzed. I'm just going braindead on the exact permissions to set at what steps at the moment. Maybe someone else can clarify.

Not sure if that's very helpful, but there it is.

[Peewee Musytari]

You could make the drinks scripted so that they can only be used once or twice or whatever and then they vanish from your inventory. If they are no mod the script can`t be removed.

[KittyCat Ninetails]

actually it won't help to make the drinks delete themselves after one use.  The problem is this.  I make a barrel of mead.  You buy it.  You set it out in your roleplay tavern.  John comes by and clicks on on the barrel to get a drink.  He is offered the menu of meads in the barrel.  He chooses one drink.

The permissions on the barrel are no problem.  But...the drink MUST be copy/trans or the barrel will break.  If the mead in the barrel is copy only then only you..as the owner of the barrel..can get a drink.  If the mead is trans only..then only John will get a drink..and only once.   Then the barrel is empty.

I have been doing this for a long time.  Setting the permissions differently in your inventory after you pick it up only "sort of" works.  I have had that not work when I take the item from my inventory and drop it into a prim (read barrel) to be then picked up..put in a box..and sold in the box.   Changing the permissions on the script in the mead works sometimes.  But again, I have had trouble with it when i get complex (put the drink in the barrel in the box and sell the box).

What I really do not understand tho..is what the makers of the sculptie maps are afraid that is going to happen?  I make a drink from their sculptie.  I texture it and script it with my scripts and textures and then sell/give it away with copy/trans rights.  You get one of my drinks.  It has copy/trans rights..the scripts inside are trans only (see..am already doin the stuff with the scripts) and you wear it.  You cannot get a copy of the map from the drink.  You can't even see the map or the texture on the build because its no mod.  you can have a hundred copies of the drink if you want.  They will all say their built by me..they will all have the same texture and script in them.  If you remove the script, they will break.  You cannot retexture, rescript or tear it appart.  If you try, and I have had customers try..it will break.  SO..whats the problem?  Why are they not sticking to having the tos on the sculptie maps such that I cant give away or sell their maps..why are they dictating what I can and cannot do with what I make from their sculptie?

[Claireschen Hesten]

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KittyCat Ninetails wrote:

Why are people having this kind of TOS on their items?  It is my build and is it not my choice how I dispense it?

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i hate TOS's that are so restrictive. i make and sell my own sculpty sets i do have a TOS but that TOS just says you can't re-sell/give away or include in compiled sets the textures or complete set as is i don't think someone should be told what perms they can and can't use on the end sculpt if they want to sell copy/trans why not 

come to think of it i saw somewhere on the forums (i think) someone selling stuff full perm can put what ever they like in their TOS and it's not enforcable LL will treat it as a resident to resident dispute

[Dartagan Shepherd]

They're worried that if people get their hands on a copy/trans version that it'll end up in freebie boxes all over the place and make their sculpt maps worthless. Even with your texture on it no-mod, it's still a valid consideration that having a sellable object is as good as having your hands on the sculptmap.

Didn't mean to elude that you don't know your stuff, just sharing what we do. We currently rely on the method I mentioned for a breedable of ours, it's necessary in order for them to give out eggs and breed. Not crazy about using a hack like this and we're currently moving to another way to handle that, but it's been "mostly" reliable. Is this a slam bit hack?

We do the following for a transfer only "drink" that can be given from a "decanter".

Set drink to no copy, no modify, yes trans on object and scripts on the ground.

Pick up and in inventory.....

Set permissions on drink to allow copy

While your decanter is on the ground, load it with drink.

Pick up a copy of the decanter.

From there you should be able to distribute it whether packed or not packed in a box.

Not trying to sell you on that method and ymmv. Good luck.

[Peewee Musytari]

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KittyCat Ninetails wrote:

actually it won't help to make the drinks delete themselves after one use.  The problem is this.  I make a barrel of mead.  You buy it.  You set it out in your roleplay tavern.  John comes by and clicks on on the barrel to get a drink.  He is offered the menu of meads in the barrel.  He chooses one drink.

The permissions on the barrel are no problem.  But...the drink MUST be copy/trans or the barrel will break.  If the mead in the barrel is copy only then only you..as the owner of the barrel..can get a drink.  If the mead is trans only..then only John will get a drink..and only once.   Then the barrel is empty.

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Yes, I did understand the problem & agree that it is a silly restriction in that situation. Obviiously the rule is there to stop their sculpts being released copy/trans, which is why I said to make it no mod and script it to self destruct.

The other alternative would be to contact the creator. Obviously their rules have to be as general as possible & are not written specifically for every potential use. You make a good case  as to why, with your other settings, their product is not at risk & you could make a contract for use for your particular case with the creator.

[KittyCat Ninetails]

I have contacted some of the makers of sculpties with varying results.  Most understand my problem and are willing to lift their TOS for my specific build or for me personally.  But the problem as I see it is this....I am an established builder.  I have hundreds of sculpties and make my own.  As a rule, I am not in need of yet another teacup.  But for the new builder...they cannot buy this lady's sculptied tea pot because they cannot make the drinks copy/trans and put them into the pot.

I have tried making my drinks no copy/trans in the world then picking them up and changing the permission to copy/trans in my inventory and loading them into the decanter and then picking up the decanter.  But when I then pass the decanter on to you (ie sell it) and you res it...the decanter won't work.  I have also put drinks no copy or no trans into a decanter and then changed the permissions on the drinks in the decanter using edit permissions and then sold it.  That did work, but the drinks in the decanter are then copy/trans for everyone.  So I am then breaking tos.

My issue tho is the TOS themselves.  If I sell a texture, I do not put a tos on it that you cannot sell or give away the item with copy/trans rights..but because your selling a map, you do?  Where is the logic in that?  And why can you restrict how I sell my items?  I can see you putting restrictions on the actual map.  Absolutely.  I totall support that idea.  But on the build I make with it?  Why do you have that right then?   I intensly dislike the concept that someone else can dictate how I can sell something I make.  And I hate the restrictions that folks are doing..tho i suppose it will cut back on my competition.

 

[Josh Susanto]

I don't need the headache of trying to get people not to use permissions I've already given them.

[Zanara Zenovka]

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KittyCat Ninetails wrote:

I intensly dislike the concept that someone else can dictate how I can sell something I make.

 

---

 

That's because they made parts of it, not you.

The solution, as Pamela suggested, is to make these parts yourself.

[Pamela Galli]

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Zanara Zenovka wrote:

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KittyCat Ninetails wrote:

I intensly dislike the concept that someone else can dictate how I can sell something I make.

 

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That's because

they

made parts of it, not you.

The solution, as Pamela suggested, is to make these parts yourself.

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Yes the thing is they are dictating not how we may sell the things we have made, but that they have made.  I sell a huge number of items that give food and drink, by now enough to feed the entire population of SL for years to come, and I have never yet found it necessary to sell anyone else's creation copy trans.

[KittyCat Ninetails]

I am not selling someone else's creations.  I am selling my own creations.  But my creations are created using their maps..their 'sculptie textures.  But I am the creator of the item.  And to be honest with you, there is no way that they as the creator can tell that I am using their map..because you cannot SEE the map unless the item is modifyable.  The only way they even know its their map is if its a very very unique build..and trust me..tea cups aint that unique. 

What stops me from ignoring their tos on the maps is my own integrity.  I believe that I must be true to my own beliefs..and I believe that if someone says..here this is an amazingly lovely thing I have crafted..yes you can have it...but no you cannot use it....I will take it and delete it.  Because for sure I will forget I cant use it *sigh*.

What I am concerned about with this though is that there are poeple trying to sell sculpties in sl with a tos that means that no one can buy their maps and use them for any commercial build.  Now that makes sense if the sculptie they are making is something like um..an elephant say..or a sign or something.  But this was a teapot set.  That no one can buy the set I saw today for sale on the marketplace and build a commercial tea set with it and then sell the set.  Not without first breaking the tos of the maker of the sculptie.  The only thing it can be used for is for a personal build only.  I can make a tea set for my own house and have my friends come over for tea.  Thats it.  It cannot be used by a commercial builder.

And what no one has explained to me really is why they are so rabid on protecting their maps.  It aint like the maps are unique.  As I said..there are tons of tea cups out there.  They are not unusual   And why try to control what permissions I put on what I make from them?  It aint like anyone can see the map.  Lots of the sculptie makers use a cover on the map so that you cannot see anything on the map but clear or swirls.  No clue how they do that..but it works.   I cannot take those maps to my computer and then bring them back into sl with my name on them as the builder.  I would not even if I could, but i cant.  Those maps are protected.  And the tos of me not giving away the maps...thats not something I have a problem with either.  Its the restriction they put on how I can give away or sell the items I make from their maps.

I also do not see what the difference is with the textures we all buy and the maps.  They are both really a texture.  What is the difference between this fantastic texture I buy from Twisted Thorn for example..which comes with the tos that I cannot sell or give it away free to anyone or sell it to anyoe..and a sculptie map of a teacup?  Both take a massive amount of skill and time to make.  Both of them take some real person behind the screen making them.  But no texture maker would dream of making those kind of restrictions on their textures.  They may say I cant use them on any other grid.  They may say that I cant sell or give em away.  But they do not try and control what permissions I put on what I build with them, or what I do with the items I make from them.  What is the difference?

[Pamela Galli]

If someone used one of my teacup sculpts, I would know it. :-)

[Ciaran Laval]

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KittyCat Ninetails wrote:

 

I also do not see what the difference is with the textures we all buy and the maps.  They are both really a texture.  What is the difference between this fantastic texture I buy from Twisted Thorn for example..which comes with the tos that I cannot sell or give it away free to anyone or sell it to anyoe..and a sculptie map of a teacup?  Both take a massive amount of skill and time to make.  Both of them take some real person behind the screen making them.  But no texture maker would dream of making those kind of restrictions on their textures.  They may say I cant use them on any other grid.  They may say that I cant sell or give em away.  But they do not try and control what permissions I put on what I build with them, or what I do with the items I make from them.  What is the difference?

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Textures are usually used as part of a build, a sculpt is pretty much the basis for the build in many cases. I would imagine we will see the same with Mesh, you will get a mesh item that is pretty much the finished article and if you sell it copy/trans it undermines their business model.

[Peewee Musytari]

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Ciaran Laval wrote:

Textures are usually used as part of a build, a sculpt is pretty much the basis for the build in many cases. I would imagine we will see the same with Mesh, you will get a mesh item that is pretty much the finished article and if you sell it copy/trans it undermines their business model.

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The difference with Mesh is that the person that made the model would still be shown as the creator. That is not the case with sculpties because you use the maps on your own prims and you are shown as the creator of the objects.

[KittyCat Ninetails]

actually I know of lots of textures where the texture makes the build.  But never are the tos that restrictive.  I, as you prob have guessed, am a little frustrated by these tos.

I find that I only buy sculptie maps now from either those creators who do not put those kind of restrictions on their product, or those I personally contact and get their approval to use copy/trans as permissions on a build I make with their product.

One problem I find is I have thousands (literally) of sculptie maps.  Some of them I purchased over 2 years ago.  I cannot (and do not even try) keep track of changing tos on items I already own.  So if I bought a sculptie from John and his tos at the time was that I could not give away or sell the map..and now his tos is that I cannot give away or sell the item I make from the map with copy/trans rights....do I have to worry about his new tos?  The chances that I kept his old tos notecard are somewhere between slim and none....and slim is on his way out of town.

I find myself rapidly coming to the conclusion that if I did not make it, I won't use it.  And since I spend a ton of money on sculptie maps and textures, and I am prob not alone on this conclusion, are the makers of maps not shooting themselves in the foot by making these restrictions?

[Josh Susanto]

I know that people are going to produce things with my data that don't show me as the originator, but I don't care. That's bound to happen eventually if people use what I provide, which is the whole point of buying it.

I have so many products with a similar look about  them that anyone who makes even a cursory investigation of where this stuff comes from will find that it comes from me.

I don't really understand people who make component-level products and then get bent out of shape over the idea of someone trying to sell things made with those components.

If you go to a hardware store and buy a bunch of wood and nails and such, how many clerks are going to warn you "yes, you may make a chair with these, but you may not sell the chair because the design of these components is valuable intellectual property."?

People who think that their single-prim items are each and unprecedented intellectual and cultural acheivements mostly need to just get over themselves, focus on productivity and stop challenging the whole world to an endless pissing contest.

If someone has a list of components which they have been disallowed to use, but which they need, they should post that list here. If I can make anything on that list, I'll post the data here and you can load it under your own name and do WTF ever else you want with it.

If there are other builders who feel as I do about this, please also participate.

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Josh Susanto wrote:

If you go to a hardware store and buy a bunch of wood and nails and such, how many clerks are going to warn you "yes, you may make a chair with these, but you may not sell the chair because the design of these components is valuable intellectual property."?

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This is not a good example. There is no IP right on wood or nails.

You can better compare it with a bookshop. When you buy a book, take it home and decide to make your own cover for the book. Though you did made your own cover, that says 'Roman by Josh Susanto' , the content of the book is still protected by copyright law. You are allowed to make copies of your cover and sell those, but despide you made a new cover you are still not allowed to make copies of the text or claim the text as being yours. Just because you are not the IP right owner of the text.

[Madeliefste Oh]

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KittyCat Ninetails wrote:

One problem I find is I have thousands (literally) of sculptie maps.  Some of them I purchased over 2 years ago.  I cannot (and do not even try) keep track of changing tos on items I already own.  So if I bought a sculptie from John and his tos at the time was that I could not give away or sell the map..and now his tos is that I cannot give away or sell the item I make from the map with copy/trans rights....do I have to worry about his new tos?  The chances that I kept his old tos notecard are somewhere between slim and none....and slim is on his way out of town.

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You don't have to worry about Johns new tos. You must stick to the tos which applied on the moment of buy. That is the moment that the actual 'deal' between you and the original creator was made. So when a creator changes his tos this doesnt work backwards for items already sold, it only works for items sold under his new tos.

It is the same as when you buy an object for a certain price. And the seller raises his price after a few months. Then he cannot come to you and say 'hey, you must pay me so and so much, because I have raised my prices now'.The new price doesn't work backwards to objects he has sold in the past.

 

 

 

[Josh Susanto]

The book example is a bad one, too.

This would be more like getting your book published with a publishing company with an open source option which you approve, then you buy all all the distribution rights and when you sell it out of your own stores, you tell people that they can't copy portions of the book, in spite of the open source notice, because they bought it at your store.

I'm pretty sure a person wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

If you don't want people using permissions, don't give them permissions.

[Madeliefste Oh]

No, you don't approve an open source option. You publish your 'book' at a compagny that states:

"You retain any and all Intellectual Property Rights you already hold under applicable law in Content you upload, publish, and submit to or through the Servers, Websites, and other areas of the Service, subject to the rights, licenses, and other terms of this Agreement, including any underlying rights of other users or Linden Lab in Content that you may use or modify."

If people want items that are open source they should use items that are open source.
If people don't want items that have restrictions on redistribution, they simply should not buy them.



[Josh Susanto]

I'm noticing a specific use of the word "you".

Which one, and why?

[Madeliefste Oh]

Uhmm... English is not my mother tongue, I'm not really sure what you mean by specific use of the word 'you'. But I ment to say you as in 'you, the creator of original content'.

[amarock Amat]

Did you get the TOS, before or after you bought the product? Was the TOS said before purchase? Would the owner give you a refund afterwords if you did not agree to it?

 

If it is no to all of the above, the TOS is invalid and unusable. Enjoy your new product