LL Reaches Out on PBR

[WeFlossDaily]

10 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

And after tackling HARD stuff like that with ease, LL could do some easy things like discover cold fusion power, cure cancer, and invent faster than light space warp technology, all in time for SL22B next summer!

You're right. We should just be happy that LL managed to fix the hover-on-login problem.

[Drayke Newall]

9 hours ago, Nagachief Darkstone said:

I feel like this isn't a very good example, I can tell there are no manual reflection probes in this scene, else there would be a pretty dramatic change in the image otherwise.

I think it is a perfect example of PBR as it is now and what to expect in the future for a very-very long time.

As you correctly stated there are no reflection probes in there and that is precisely the problem of PBR.

Second Life and its users have over 20 years experience in texturing and 10-13ish years in simple Blinn-phong texturing. It also had the benefit of been completely user friendly. You buy a texture drag and drop it on the build menu texture squares and it worked. Yes you needed ALM on to see said Normal/Speclar results but that was a simple toggle. Even any new person would expect a buy it and it works system. They wouldn't (and shouldn't be expected to) need to add their own probes everywhere or even need to know they need to.

Then you have new users that also have no idea what a reflection probe is and expect like any other game that allows custom building and what have you, to simply buy the object and it looks as expected.

That's what people are used to and that is what people want. A simple two or three step process that is easy to understand and easy to implement. Instead they now have to worry about probes, their location, making them just the right size and adding multiple probes to a scene to get the right look etc. No average user is going to do that and no average user even knows they need to do that.

For example, here is a texture being sold on the marketplace as PBR Second Life Marketplace - (TI) PBR Concrete (Paneling). Sure looks fine but there is a problem. Read the description and you will see no mention of 'need to set up reflection probe' for it to look better than old texturing methods. The same goes for the ever increasing PBR objects on MP where once again, no mention of reflection probes or their need. All they ever say is need a PBR compatible viewer.

I could also probably say with some degree of confidence that most of those texturing sellers and/or object makers also have no idea that you need reflection probes as well set up to make them look better than Blinn-phong.

The end result is that you get exactly as what those pictures showed. Absolutely no difference from Blinn-phong for the average user except a difference in appearance to the tone, shading, anti-aliasing, shadow, water, sky, etc. This is also what you are going to keep seeing.

This not even getting into the whole process of how to texture now. For an example here is the mesh/texturing wiki page Texturing a mesh - Second Life Wiki . Whilst it is simple and lacks a little bit of info or pictures it is pretty much as it says. Upload, drag and drop.

Now here is the wiki for adding a texture for PBR PBR Materials - Second Life Wiki . See the difference? Not only does the average/new SL user now need to know technical terms for the old texturing method they have never heard of, they also need to read an essay on how to texture, how to do reflection probes, why you need reflection probes,  etc.

tl/dr: keep expecting to see exactly what is in those pictures with no reflection probes as the average user buying all these fancy new materials have no idea that it isnt anything like drag and drop/place per the old method over 20 years.

:ETA:

Additionally, it is bad enough to get objects, houses etc with lighting done correctly using the ambiance, fade, FOV, light shape texture, etc options that are there, with most creators just clicking the light tickbox and colour and calling it a day. Yet people and LL now expect these same creators to bother to set up reflection probes correctly with similar options? I have a bridge to sell you...

Edited August 27 by Drayke Newall

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Drayke Newall said:

7 hours ago, Nagachief Darkstone said:

I feel like this isn't a very good example, I can tell there are no manual reflection probes in this scene, else there would be a pretty dramatic change in the image otherwise.

I think it is a perfect example of PBR as it is now and what to expect in the future for a very-very long time.

As you correctly stated there are no reflection probes in there and that is precisely the problem of PBR.

So..automatic probes didn't help?

[Drayke Newall]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

So..automatic probes didn't help?

If they did, then those two pictures posted earlier would show a dramatic difference in textures. The result however was a darker floor and what could be argued as a slightly stronger normal map to the chairs which is possible with old texturing methods.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

4 hours ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

2024, a mesh home, with oh god what to make this week, style, poll customers, ideas, then build it, with the two versions of materials, the custom LODS, the ***** ups (yes I said that) and fixes, the probes, the bit you then missed again between two material slots and the complexity, scripting bits, lights wait do I put lights in this one, those need scripts and set up, the boxing, the drop boxing, the caspervending, the vendors reset, wait upload the images now I have to resize, a logo, details we need details people what is the LI, then the event fees, the event set up, the photography, now the new batch of EEPs I need time to make custom clouds, new lighting settings,  as folk are having lighting issues with the P word, the twelve different social media posts and now another new internal one starting with Prim (oh that really kicks), the customer questions, oh god it needs to now go on marketplace and I need to move the store around to fit this one in, the genuine support needed from customers "what is EEP, what is PBR, what is this doing etc as LL doesn't well - have that channel" , the need for updates, the "can't this be free questions (weekly)", the update to another ***** up you noticed due to fixing the first ***** up and then redelivery to customers, , then wait oh crap  I need to feed the machine again next week I have to start now now now. 

That sounds more like the process of "merchanting" than "crafting" to me.  My creative process consists of making a thing that I like, uploading it and then probably handing it out for free to any friends, etc. who may appreciate it.

 

4 hours ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

That's the reality of a crafter who now creates these days and sells for profit is that above.  So perhaps that profit bit is the issue too.

There's the ugly truth.  Mesh didn't kill the fun of in-world building, it was the notion that everyone could come to SL and become rich by creating and selling things that really caused the dissatisfaction that most now express.  Whenever the discussion comes up you'll find far more people complaining that "prims don't sell as well" than you do saying "prims aren't as much fun anymore".

 

Anyway, you're probably right that SL is never going to return to the days of people creating just for fun which means the only creators they're likely to attract will just be more opportunists trying to make some easy money, fewer and fewer of whom will stick around as they realise that SL just doesn't have enough consumers left to make it worth their while, such a shame!

[Orwar]

47 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Anyway, you're probably right that SL is never going to return to the days of people creating just for fun which means the only creators they're likely to attract will just be more opportunists trying to make some easy money, fewer and fewer of whom will stick around as they realise that SL just doesn't have enough consumers left to make it worth their while, such a shame!

   Unless of course all the mesh creators quit because of the limitations to profit due to the limited userbase, then the people who remain will have to use in-world tools for building their stuff and then they'll have so much fun everyone they tell about SL will want to try it and SL is resurrected!

   .. And then the meshers return, because, ooh, potential customers - and then the in-world building dies again, and people lose interest, and the meshers give up and leave, and then people start building with prims again and come back .. 

[Always Incognito]

And now mirrors are disabled by default in LLs viewer.... 🥺

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

So..automatic probes didn't help?

All automatic probes really do is permit mirrors to reflect the entire scene. They aren't adjustable, and so their impact is entirely dependent on the EEP used.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

I think it is a perfect example of PBR as it is now and what to expect in the future for a very-very long time.

As you correctly stated there are no reflection probes in there and that is precisely the problem of PBR.

Second Life and its users have over 20 years experience in texturing and 10-13ish years in simple Blinn-phong texturing. It also had the benefit of been completely user friendly. You buy a texture drag and drop it on the build menu texture squares and it worked. Yes you needed ALM on to see said Normal/Speclar results but that was a simple toggle. Even any new person would expect a buy it and it works system. They wouldn't (and shouldn't be expected to) need to add their own probes everywhere or even need to know they need to.

Then you have new users that also have no idea what a reflection probe is and expect like any other game that allows custom building and what have you, to simply buy the object and it looks as expected.

That's what people are used to and that is what people want. A simple two or three step process that is easy to understand and easy to implement. Instead they now have to worry about probes, their location, making them just the right size and adding multiple probes to a scene to get the right look etc. No average user is going to do that and no average user even knows they need to do that.

For example, here is a texture being sold on the marketplace as PBR Second Life Marketplace - (TI) PBR Concrete (Paneling). Sure looks fine but there is a problem. Read the description and you will see no mention of 'need to set up reflection probe' for it to look better than old texturing methods. The same goes for the ever increasing PBR objects on MP where once again, no mention of reflection probes or their need. All they ever say is need a PBR compatible viewer.

I could also probably say with some degree of confidence that most of those texturing sellers and/or object makers also have no idea that you need reflection probes as well set up to make them look better than Blinn-phong.

The end result is that you get exactly as what those pictures showed. Absolutely no difference from Blinn-phong for the average user except a difference in appearance to the tone, shading, anti-aliasing, shadow, water, sky, etc. This is also what you are going to keep seeing.

This not even getting into the whole process of how to texture now. For an example here is the mesh/texturing wiki page Texturing a mesh - Second Life Wiki . Whilst it is simple and lacks a little bit of info or pictures it is pretty much as it says. Upload, drag and drop.

Now here is the wiki for adding a texture for PBR PBR Materials - Second Life Wiki . See the difference? Not only does the average/new SL user now need to know technical terms for the old texturing method they have never heard of, they also need to read an essay on how to texture, how to do reflection probes, why you need reflection probes,  etc.

tl/dr: keep expecting to see exactly what is in those pictures with no reflection probes as the average user buying all these fancy new materials have no idea that it isnt anything like drag and drop/place per the old method over 20 years.

:ETA:

Additionally, it is bad enough to get objects, houses etc with lighting done correctly using the ambiance, fade, FOV, light shape texture, etc options that are there, with most creators just clicking the light tickbox and colour and calling it a day. Yet people and LL now expect these same creators to bother to set up reflection probes correctly with similar options? I have a bridge to sell you...

Yeah, reflection probes really are the key to making PRB look good -- or at least noticeably different and better than Blinn-Phong maps. And unfortunately, as you note, they are not particularly easy to set up (especially if you're trying to cover the interior of an building with multiple rooms and an even slightly irregular shape). Most residents are going to have no idea what a reflection probe even is, yet alone how to make and configure one.

Hopefully builders will start to incorporate them into all new builds. Charlotte is already doing this, as well as providing good EEPs to go with. Will most do it? Good question. And will they do it well?

And so I return to my brilliant commercial idea and opportunity of a couple of months ago: "Scylla's Reflection Probe Installers." I'll hire college students, and they'll travel around in a van adding reflection probes for the low low price of . . . not sure yet. I wonder what the market will bear?

Probably not much.

[Nagachief Darkstone]

33 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yeah, reflection probes really are the key to making PRB look good -- or at least noticeably different and better than Blinn-Phong maps. And unfortunately, as you note, they are not particularly easy to set up (especially if you're trying to cover the interior of an building with multiple rooms and an even slightly irregular shape). Most residents are going to have no idea what a reflection probe even is, yet alone how to make and configure one.

Hopefully builders will start to incorporate them into all new builds. Charlotte is already doing this, as well as providing good EEPs to go with. Will most do it? Good question. And will they do it well?

And so I return to my brilliant commercial idea and opportunity of a couple of months ago: "Scylla's Reflection Probe Installers." I'll hire college students, and they'll travel around in a van adding reflection probes for the low low price of . . . not sure yet. I wonder what the market will bear?

Probably not much.

Probably not the craziest idea. What I've ended up doing is for sim owners I'm friendly with, I've offered to probe up their sims and scenes. That's also usually when they're sold on PBR, because then stuff looks right.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

19 minutes ago, Nagachief Darkstone said:

Probably not the craziest idea. What I've ended up doing is for sim owners I'm friendly with, I've offered to probe up their sims and scenes. That's also usually when they're sold on PBR, because then stuff looks right.

And this is the frustrating thing. PBR really can look better -- done properly, with a good EEP and reflection probes. And the former was largely missing from the equation initially (although thank goodness some decent PBR-friendly EEPs are starting to filter out to people), while the latter is clunky to apply and probably more than most people are willing to do.

Introducing PBR still really feels like a job half-done.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

9 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It might help retain the ones already here! 👵

(Some) old(er) people join Second Life to relive their real life in a different manner.

I have always said this place should be called Second Chance

[BilliJo Aldrin]

18 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And this is the frustrating thing. PBR really can look better -- done properly, with a good EEP and reflection probes. And the former was largely missing from the equation initially (although thank goodness some decent PBR-friendly EEPs are starting to filter out to people), while the latter is clunky to apply and probably more than most people are willing to do.

Introducing PBR still really feels like a job half-done.

How does one make the pro PBR crowd understand that the antis don't "need" Second Life to "look better". SL is just fine as it is. PBR does nothing to enhance and improve SL in any meaningful way

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Always Incognito said:

And now mirrors are disabled by default in LLs viewer.... 🥺

LOL LL brings in a new shiny and then sets it as disabled as the standard. WTG LL, you did it again. 😂

Now finish the job and set it so you can disable ALM and PBR

Edited August 27 by BilliJo Aldrin
aded stuff

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

How does one make the pro PBR crowd understand that the antis don't "need" Second Life to "look better". SL is just fine as it is. PBR does nothing to enhance and improve SL in any meaningful way

I think in truth the pro-PBR crowd -- and in this context, that includes me -- doesn't really care if you use PBR or not. How your SL looks is between you, your computer, and your graphics card.

The people who concern me are not those who dislike the look of PBR, and don't want to use it. You be you! The ones I care about are those who are having a difficult time with low-end computers, and those who want it to look better, but don't know how to make that happen.

Edited August 27 by Scylla Rhiadra

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think in truth the pro-PBR crowd -- and in this context, that includes me -- doesn't really care if you use PBR or not. How your SL looks is between you, your computer, and your graphics card.

The people who concern me are not those who dislike the look of PBR, and don't want to use it. You be you! The ones I care about are those who are having a difficult time with low-end computers, and those who want it to look better, but don't know how to do it.

They have been told over and over what to do, upgrade their computer/graphics card.

And for the record, I don't "dislike" the look of PBR since I've only seen it in a couple of pictures, its wow, so cool.... I just don't think it is necessary for a satisfactory SL experience.

Edited August 27 by BilliJo Aldrin
added stuff

[Scylla Rhiadra]

11 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

They have been told over and over what to do, upgrade their computer/graphics card

That's a performance issue, and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether they like the look of PBR. You're conflating the two.

You've decided you don't want PBR, which is just fine. A lot of those struggling with performance issues would like to experience PBR.

Edited August 27 by Scylla Rhiadra
Yeeeeeesh

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

That's a performance issue, and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether they like the like of PBR. You're conflating the two.

You've decided you don't want PBR, which is just fine. A lot of those struggling with performance issues would like to experience PBR.

no, you are being deliberately obtuse, they like PBR, they want PBR, but until they upgrade, their SL experience will suck, so until they get that new computer, they should be able to disable PBR, and while we are at it, ALM. They can save their pennies, then upgrade to experience the wonderful new world LL has foisted upon them

[Nagachief Darkstone]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

That's a performance issue, and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether they like the like of PBR. You're conflating the two.

You've decided you don't want PBR, which is just fine. A lot of those struggling with performance issues would like to experience PBR.

My personal suggestion about this conversation is that the ignore tool is a wonderous thing to deal with people who will not change their minds, refuse to engage in a conversation in good faith, or just like to scream into the void. It's really transformed my experience on the forums into something far less frustrating.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

they should be able to disable PBR, and while we are at it, ALM.

And they now can. They can use the pre-PBR Firestorm forever! Or Henri's viewer, or other TPVs that haven't updated.

So, what exactly is the problem?

[Porky Gorky]

10 hours ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

Do not read the next paragraph unless you really want to:

I think this convoluted process you outlined somewhat insulates SL from a bigger influx of external content creators coming in and selling complex content like houses and environments. I was lured back to SL by PBR. When exploring options to sell my existing content here (content created for use outside of SL) I considered returning to selling prefabs. During research however, I identified maybe less than 50% of the workflow you outlined, that combined with current market value for houses made me quickly realize there would not be an acceptable financial return for the time invested. 

I would suggest that this “SL Convolution Barrier” that you described has helped to keep the wolves from the door and helped to protect content creators in SL somewhat. 

And the wolves are definitely out there circling, looking for new opportunities to sell content. Outside of SL the landscape has changed radically in the last 2 years with regards to the amount of freelance work available and the income that can be generated selling 3D content. There is the ongoing influx of content creators from Asian countries who will work and sell content for 50% to 90% below market value, there is AI that is having a multi-faceted impact on the 3D CGI industry, there is the cost of living crisis and then there have been over 20000 redundancies in the games industry in the last 18 months which has increased competition across the board and increased the quality of recent content on places like Unreal Marketplace which has made it harder to compete.

So taking into account what I just said, let’s consider the rollout out of glTF scenes. If glTF scenes is implemented correctly and works as advertised, will this dissolve the “SL Convolution Barrier” enough to entice the wolves in? Introducing an industry standard pipeline improves accessibility for content creators and may make SL look more appetizing to those hungry wolves. Since my return I have realised there is still some fresh meat on this rotting carcass if you search hard enough and I wonder if the other wolves will see it too.

Edited August 27 by Porky Gorky

[Drayke Newall]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I wonder what the market will bear?

Probably not much.

If you advertise it as 'free probing services' I'm sure you would get good business on Zindra...

*Drayke runs....*

Edited August 27 by Drayke Newall

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And they now can. They can use the pre-PBR Firestorm forever! Or Henri's viewer, or other TPVs that haven't updated.

So, what exactly is the problem?

none at all 😂

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Nagachief Darkstone said:

My personal suggestion about this conversation is that the ignore tool is a wonderous thing to deal with people who will not change their minds, refuse to engage in a conversation in good faith, or just like to scream into the void. It's really transformed my experience on the forums into something far less frustrating.

I totally agree, I’d put Scylla on ignore, but the truth is, I kinda like her. 😬

[Theresa Tennyson]

6 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

I think it is a perfect example of PBR as it is now and what to expect in the future for a very-very long time.

As you correctly stated there are no reflection probes in there and that is precisely the problem of PBR.

Second Life and its users have over 20 years experience in texturing and 10-13ish years in simple Blinn-phong texturing. It also had the benefit of been completely user friendly. You buy a texture drag and drop it on the build menu texture squares and it worked. Yes you needed ALM on to see said Normal/Speclar results but that was a simple toggle. Even any new person would expect a buy it and it works system. They wouldn't (and shouldn't be expected to) need to add their own probes everywhere or even need to know they need to.

Then you have new users that also have no idea what a reflection probe is and expect like any other game that allows custom building and what have you, to simply buy the object and it looks as expected.

That's what people are used to and that is what people want. A simple two or three step process that is easy to understand and easy to implement. Instead they now have to worry about probes, their location, making them just the right size and adding multiple probes to a scene to get the right look etc. No average user is going to do that and no average user even knows they need to do that.

For example, here is a texture being sold on the marketplace as PBR Second Life Marketplace - (TI) PBR Concrete (Paneling). Sure looks fine but there is a problem. Read the description and you will see no mention of 'need to set up reflection probe' for it to look better than old texturing methods. The same goes for the ever increasing PBR objects on MP where once again, no mention of reflection probes or their need. All they ever say is need a PBR compatible viewer.

I could also probably say with some degree of confidence that most of those texturing sellers and/or object makers also have no idea that you need reflection probes as well set up to make them look better than Blinn-phong.

The end result is that you get exactly as what those pictures showed. Absolutely no difference from Blinn-phong for the average user except a difference in appearance to the tone, shading, anti-aliasing, shadow, water, sky, etc. This is also what you are going to keep seeing.

This not even getting into the whole process of how to texture now. For an example here is the mesh/texturing wiki page Texturing a mesh - Second Life Wiki . Whilst it is simple and lacks a little bit of info or pictures it is pretty much as it says. Upload, drag and drop.

Now here is the wiki for adding a texture for PBR PBR Materials - Second Life Wiki . See the difference? Not only does the average/new SL user now need to know technical terms for the old texturing method they have never heard of, they also need to read an essay on how to texture, how to do reflection probes, why you need reflection probes,  etc.

tl/dr: keep expecting to see exactly what is in those pictures with no reflection probes as the average user buying all these fancy new materials have no idea that it isnt anything like drag and drop/place per the old method over 20 years.

:ETA:

Additionally, it is bad enough to get objects, houses etc with lighting done correctly using the ambiance, fade, FOV, light shape texture, etc options that are there, with most creators just clicking the light tickbox and colour and calling it a day. Yet people and LL now expect these same creators to bother to set up reflection probes correctly with similar options? I have a bridge to sell you...

When you say it "You can't tell the difference from Blinn-Phong unless you do X..." also mean that,

1) "It looks better than Blinn-Phong if you do X"

AND

1) "It looks as good as Blinn-Phong even if you don't do X"?