The End Of An Era and what was a wonderful, enlightened virtual world....

[Istelathis]

8 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

I have no idea why they won't update that. Genuinely 8GB of RAM isn't enough for their viewer any more, 4GB... I would guess it would just fall over completely.

They know fine well their engine requires a discrete GPU as well, it's not an option any more.

I've run it using the integrated GPU on my computer, completely bypassing my nVidia.  It wasn't great, but it worked.

This was on the Alchemy viewer using a AMD Ryzen 7 7700 8-Core Processor, also 48gb of ram.  The CPU has a radeon built in I believe.  

For comparison, here is using it with my nVidia 4060 / 8gb vram:

Much improved quality, but I do think some systems with integrated GPUs will be okay - I haven't a clue how well Intel does, if it is better or worse.  

[AmeliaJ08]

6 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I've run it using the integrated GPU on my computer, completely bypassing my nVidia.  It wasn't great, but it worked.

This was on the Alchemy viewer using a AMD Ryzen 7 7700 8-Core Processor, also 48gb of ram.  The CPU has a radeon built in I believe.  

For comparison, here is using it with my nVidia 4060 / 8gb vram:

Much improved quality, but I do think some systems with integrated GPUs will be okay - I haven't a clue how well Intel does, if it is better or worse.  

I wish AMD gave their iGPUs useful names (they do with newer models like the 680/780/980M integrated now) - all I know is that is "AMD Radeon Graphics" integrated which is totally useless haha.

I'd say that's... kinda okay? but you're on your own. I suspect if you went to a populated place we'd be down to slideshow frame rates.

edit: ah yeah video continued, I think we're into unusable. But yeah, it works, I just don't know if anyone could really 'use' SL this way.

 

Edited August 16 by AmeliaJ08

[Rowan Amore]

At least FS's recommendations are more realistic and they even say, more is better...

https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/fs_system_requirements

[Istelathis]

6 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

I'd say that's... kinda okay? but you're on your own. I suspect if you went to a populated place we'd be down to slideshow frame rates.

I hit up London city, it was not great, the fps went down, not all avatars displayed quickly but if I were just sitting there I am sure it would have eventually equaled out at around 20 - 30 fps, especially if I dropped down the draw distance from 128 to 64.  Around the 5:00 mark you can see the stats listed.

Edit:
As a side note, I would not suggest people go buy a new computer with an integrated GPU and expect a great experience, it is not, there is stuttering, it is not going to be acceptable for a lot of people who spend the money solely for a smooth SL experience, they should get a GPU if they want a better experience out of SL.

Edited August 16 by Istelathis

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

You continue talking like the cost is no big thing, all for promoting new PBR content which so far doesn't impress many, other then the ones creating it.

In fairness to the tech itself, PBR, when done properly, can be really nice. I just don't see where it looks as good as it does in other games right now because I think we're missing some critical elements for that to happen (don't ask me what, I'm not that techie). Perhaps this will get fixed in the future.

The way it's been implemented here is definitely not ideal and it's going to be weird anyway with how absolutely everyone can change their own environments in dramatic ways and all of our content is user generated, but don't let it sour you on PBR done well.

[discussionbot]

4 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I hit up London city

Well there’s your first mistake

jk jk

[BilliJo Aldrin]

23 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm surprised on two counts.

First, that LL is letting them do this. It could seriously impede the widespread adoption of PBR (or at least PBR-only items) across the grid.

Second, that the adoption of the new viewer is as low as 57.5%. That's worse than I'd guessed.

I guess this is a good thing? Sort of?

Better would be making the performance improvements that might make a PBR viewer attainable or palatable for a larger segment of users, however.

Why is it so important that everyone see PBR textures? It only "hurts" the people that choose not to see them, you yourself can enjoy everything PBR has to offer in all its glory. 😂

[Rolig Loon]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Sorry Rolig but you're going to have a hard time supporting this.

So, what am I supporting?  My comment was a direct response to your observation about "not just spouting an opinion that if it was from the Lab, it must be good."  If that's your criterion, then you really ought to be fair and hold people to the same standard, not just spout an opinion that if it's from the Lab, it must be bad.  Pot, kettle, and all that....

[Whirly Fizzle]

7 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I thought that Firestorm can't track which versions are being used, just which versions are being downloaded.

We get detailed usage stats from LL each month including user numbers, hours logged in & crash rates for each viewer version.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

26 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

In fairness to the tech itself, PBR, when done properly, can be really nice. I just don't see where it looks as good as it does in other games right now because I think we're missing some critical elements for that to happen (don't ask me what, I'm not that techie). Perhaps this will get fixed in the future.

The way it's been implemented here is definitely not ideal and it's going to be weird anyway with how absolutely everyone can change their own environments in dramatic ways and all of our content is user generated, but don't let it sour you on PBR done well.

I think the part of the problem with PBR (and the reason that so many people are questioning whether it's worth sacrificing performance for) is that it's being touted as an upgrade, which is usually perceived as meaning "a step forward", when in reality PBR is more of "a step sideways" onto a path leading to further improvements in the future (allegedly).

For those with decent hardware that had ALM enabled all the time PBR content isn't really dramatically different from content that used the old materials system and, thanks to the new renderer and lighting changes, can often look worse (or at least significantly different to how it looked prior to PBR).  For those on lower end hardware who hardly ever used ALM they have to contend not only with poor performance but also a myriad of content that looks completely different now that materials are no longer optional.

Once residents get to grips with the new lighting and probes, etc and have enough PBR content available to create spaces and environments that take full advantage of the new features then I think we'll start to see the benefits of PBR and just how much impact it could have on SL, but then SL has always been comprised of a patchwork of content from different periods in it's history and I doubt any new feature LL introduce will have that significant an impact on SL because all that old content will always linger on.

 

[Whirly Fizzle]

5 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I was at the LL Creators meeting a couple days ago and Dave had returned from Summer Hols, he seemed to lament that Firestorm had copied the code at an unfortunate point in time where a performance regression had been made and just before some performance improvements were made - To be clear I don't think he was blaming them so much it was really unfortunate timing that has led to more people having a bad first impression of PBR.

 

3 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

*twerks on the way out*

 

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Inara for the win. This just appeared in my email in-box: thank you Janet!

This actually confirms a lot of things that have been suggested -- most notably the fact that the current FS PBR release is not functioning as it should be. (Whether because it was "rushed" or not, who knows?)

This is all good news so far as I'm concerned, in the sense that they (LL and the FS team) have recognized and acknowledged the problems that have cropped up, and have made fixing them a priority. Hopefully, the promised performance enhancements for FS and the LL viewer will make this conversation somewhat moot, by making PBR accessible to a larger group of those currently struggling with it.

The wording in Inara's post & that comment paraphrased from Runitai is a bit misleading.
That "unfortunate point in time" with the performance regression also affects the current LL release viewer.

The Firestorm PBR release is merged up to the current Linden Lab release, 7.1.8.9375512768 - Materials Featurettes, which sadly included the performance regression.

Most of the performance fixes for lower end hardware & integrated GPUs are in LL's develop, which doesn't have a viewer build available yet.
Though a few performance fixes are in the 7.1.9.10326512121 - Atlasaurus RC viewer, which is what the current Firestorm Alpha is based off.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Once residents get to grips with the new lighting and probes, etc and have enough PBR content available to create spaces and environments that take full advantage of the new features then I think we'll start to see the benefits of PBR and just how much impact it could have on SL, but then SL has always been comprised of a patchwork of content from different periods in it's history and I doubt any new feature LL introduce will have that significant an impact on SL because all that old content will always linger on.

Yep, and I think this right here is exactly the challenge. What PBR does well is bring consistency and predictability to complex scenes. Light behaves properly whether indoors or outdoors, matte materials look properly dull and matte, natural textures like plants and leaves and grass look waxy or have a gentle sheen, glitter glitters and shimmers, mud looks wet and slimy, wood looks shiny and new or aged and worn, furniture, floors, door handles, dinnerware, upholstery, fabrics, plastics, glass, metals of all kinds - it all looks as one would assume it would. It balances expectations well and flows from one scene to the next. 

But then there's SL where you could have ALL that right next to a prim structure from 2007, so..."immersion ruuuuined" to quote some in the gaming crowd. 👀

Get a bunch of connected sims all on the same wavelength, and I think it's going to look really nice, though. Eventually.

[Whirly Fizzle]

3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I bet that after LL helps fix the Firestorm bugs, that Firestorm runs almost as well as the official viewer! 

 

3 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

Are we really ignoring the fact that LL has to step in to help fix a third party viewer?

 

Well, it's the performance regressions LL introduced in their Materials Featurettes viewer that they are fixing, they are not fixing any Firestorm specific bugs.

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

The Firestorm PBR release is merged up to the current Linden Lab release, 7.1.8.9375512768 - Materials Featurettes, which sadly included the performance regression.

Most of the performance fixes for lower end hardware & integrated GPUs are in LL's develop, which doesn't have a viewer build available yet.
Though a few performance fixes are in the 7.1.9.10326512121 - Atlasaurus RC viewer, which is what the current Firestorm Alpha is based off.

Great details, thank you!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Light behaves properly whether indoors or outdoors, matte materials look properly dull and matte, natural textures like plants and leaves and grass look waxy or have a gentle sheen, glitter glitters and shimmers, mud looks wet and slimy, wood looks shiny and new or aged and worn, furniture, floors, door handles, dinnerware, upholstery, fabrics, plastics, glass, metals of all kinds - it all looks as one would assume it would.

It does, or would, if the materials have been created by someone who knows what they're doing. Not sure we're there yet.

I could name (but won't) a few well known clothing makers who still haven't got the hang of using specular properly on old BP-mapped garments. PBR materials are somewhat more complicated to make (as I am learning!).

It's going to take a while.

[BriannaLovey]

6 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

Are we really ignoring the fact that LL has to step in to help fix a third party viewer?

They reap what they sow. Firestorm had superior UX and features to the official viewer, so many people used it. Why didn't LL adapt based on what their users wanted? Who knows.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

What PBR does well is bring consistency and predictability to complex scenes. Light behaves properly whether indoors or outdoors

Yeah but in SL, there's a teensy weensy little problem with that...

 

4 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I think we're missing some critical elements for that to happen (don't ask me what, I'm not that techie).

The ENTIRE PBR LIGHTIING SYSTEM on which it depends.

 

2 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

matte materials look properly dull and matte, natural textures like plants and leaves and grass look waxy or have a gentle sheen, glitter glitters and shimmers, mud looks wet and slimy, wood looks shiny and new or aged and worn, furniture, floors, door handles, dinnerware, upholstery, fabrics, plastics, glass, metals of all kinds

I'm seeing "World of Dipped in Plastic" in the "wonderful pics enhanced by PBR" posted by Cultists.

The main cause of everything being too shiny, is almost certainly the "Env cube" reflection system, I'm guessing, but it looks like they are just applying the Roughness=0 fake reflections to all the roughness!=0 surfaces, this is an observed problem in some other PBR engines.

In SL, it's probably a result of backporting PBR-Fail coders from Sansar, which had that "we pretended to write it ourselves but actually ripped it from Useless Engine Type B" thing going on..

So an LL Kludge coded version of an LL Kludge coded version of a Useless Engine type B Kludge.

And people are surprised it doesn't look as good as PBR in a bespoke game engine from real games devs.

 

2 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I think it's going to look really nice, though. Eventually.

Should be almost ready in time for SL30B.

 

2 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

so..."immersion ruuuuined"

Personally, I'd like to see the use of the I-word made an Abuse Reportable Offense under the ToS.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

 

 

Well, it's the performance regressions LL introduced in their Materials Featurettes viewer that they are fixing, they are not fixing any Firestorm specific bugs.

Thanks for the clarifications, Whirly!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

The ENTIRE PBR LIGHTIING SYSTEM on which it depends.

Yes.

Speaking as a photographer, if you want to get me excited, don't give me mirrors and metallic reflections. Give me better lighting!!!

[Ayashe Ninetails]

29 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It does, or would, if the materials have been created by someone who knows what they're doing. Not sure we're there yet.

I could name (but won't) a few well known clothing makers who still haven't got the hang of using specular properly on old BP-mapped garments. PBR materials are somewhat more complicated to make (as I am learning!).

It's going to take a while.

Yeah, it's definitely not ready for prime time yet and it'll take ages to get enough content. My main issue, though, is you're going to have an endless number of people creating with it and I'm not sure how that'll hold up when someone's building entire sims with all of that mixed content. Maybe it'll work, but what I'm comparing it to is a type of game where an entire series of scenes are completely consistent as you move from one to the next since they've all been designed from the ground up by the very same people. Wander around indoors, step outside - it all just works and flows and looks great.

That's where SL may (or may not, I don't know yet) struggle. I could be overthinking it, but will a PBR leather chair designed by one person look consistent in a scene next to some PBR appliances designed by another, all under an EEP chosen by the decorator while someone else rolls in with an entirely different EEP setting? Maybe? Maybe it's a non-issue. I just can't tell yet since it's way too early, but I'm just thinking maybe that's why some people aren't seeing the benefit of it all at the moment.

I'm just wondering out loud. Don't mind me. 😂

Edited August 17 by Ayashe Ninetails
Grammaring

[Scylla Rhiadra]

17 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Maybe it'll work, but what I'm comparing it to is a type of game where an entire series of scenes are completely consistent as you move from one to the next since they've all been designed from the ground up by the very same people. Wander around indoors, step outside - it all just works and flows and looks great.

I don't think this is overthinking it at all. Really good looking digital scenes are generally carefully constructed by professionals who work hard to ensure that, as you say, everything "flows." Textures and maps are designed for particular lighting configurations that are static and unchangeable, and the entire "look" is an integrated whole.

We're not going to be seeing a lot of that in SL, which will very seldom, if ever, look as "good" as a really well designed game scene.

But then, in fairness, this has always been a problem in SL. I know that, constructing backdrops for my pics, I'll sometimes try to use elements that might look fine or even good on their own, but that clash horribly with each other because the texturing and mesh have been produced according to very different aesthetics and approaches.

LL can give us all the triple-A design tools it wants. Until they are being used by triple-A calibre designers and creators, we're not going to achieve what can be done in a static game.

ETA: And of course, it's not just about the skill level of creators, some of whom are excellent. It's also got a lot to do with the very nature of SL, and the degree of control that individual users have, which far exceeds that available to a player in a game.

Edited August 17 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Ayashe Ninetails]

19 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But then, in fairness, this has always been a problem in SL. I know that, constructing backdrops for my pics, I'll sometimes try to use elements that might look fine or even good on their own, but that clash horribly with each other because the texturing and mesh have been produced according to very different aesthetics and approaches.

Oh lawd, I know the feeling. The amount of time I spend shopping for a single room or photography scene to find cohesive pieces is a THING, both for myself and when decorating for others. I like odd themes, so that doesn't help. Everything from witchy kitchens and gardens to my old neon vaporwave "woman cave" bedroom to a cyberpunk cafe. Shopping for that takes TIME. I'm dreading what it'll be like to do it with a mix of PBR and non-PBR stuff, ugh.

 

19 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

LL can give us all the triple-A design tools it wants. Until they are being used by triple-A calibre designers and creators, we're not going to achieve what can be done in a static game.

I actually think we've got some top tier designers in the home furnishings category, so I don't think it's a matter of being done well. It's just a matter of so many doing it their own way under their own ideal lighting conditions. Maybe when we get all of our updates it'll be a little easier to work it all together. Or, maybe I'll keep spending 5-6 days shopping per room (maybe longer now, or maybe not at all, lol). 😩

Edited August 17 by Ayashe Ninetails
Fixing stuffs

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

3 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

6 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

so..."immersion ruuuuined"

Personally, I'd like to see the use of the I-word made an Abuse Reportable Offense under the ToS.

If it were up to you the Abuse Reporting UI would probably have an entire category just for "Positivity"!  

[BilliJo Aldrin]

7 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Yep, and I think this right here is exactly the challenge. What PBR does well is bring consistency and predictability to complex scenes. Light behaves properly whether indoors or outdoors, matte materials look properly dull and matte, natural textures like plants and leaves and grass look waxy or have a gentle sheen, glitter glitters and shimmers, mud looks wet and slimy, wood looks shiny and new or aged and worn, furniture, floors, door handles, dinnerware, upholstery, fabrics, plastics, glass, metals of all kinds - it all looks as one would assume it would. It balances expectations well and flows from one scene to the next. 

But then there's SL where you could have ALL that right next to a prim structure from 2007, so..."immersion ruuuuined" to quote some in the gaming crowd. 👀

Get a bunch of connected sims all on the same wavelength, and I think it's going to look really nice, though. Eventually.

And people say, noooo PBR won't slow your computer down or cause it to run hot, when all those examples you provided must have an effect, anything that consumes more of your computers capacity MUST have an effect on performance.

"My computer melted down, but SL sure was purty before it happened" 😂

Edited August 17 by BilliJo Aldrin
changed spelling

[BilliJo Aldrin]

7 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Yep, and I think this right here is exactly the challenge. What PBR does well is bring consistency and predictability to complex scenes. Light behaves properly whether indoors or outdoors, matte materials look properly dull and matte, natural textures like plants and leaves and grass look waxy or have a gentle sheen, glitter glitters and shimmers, mud looks wet and slimy, wood looks shiny and new or aged and worn, furniture, floors, door handles, dinnerware, upholstery, fabrics, plastics, glass, metals of all kinds - it all looks as one would assume it would. It balances expectations well and flows from one scene to the next. 

But then there's SL where you could have ALL that right next to a prim structure from 2007, so..."immersion ruuuuined" to quote some in the gaming crowd. 👀

Get a bunch of connected sims all on the same wavelength, and I think it's going to look really nice, though. Eventually.

There's only one thing to do then... ban all prims and non PBR content.. a clean break moving forward to a better brighter future

What is that quote the cackler likes to use... "We need to imagine a future totally unburdened by the past".

Not unlike Mao and the Four Olds.

😁