Why does LL not integrate more QoL features from TPVs?

[Cristiano Midnight]

The main reason that people choose TPVs like Firestorm is because of the quality of life features that the official viewer lacks. There are some features in Firestorm I rely on that I am not willing to go without. There is nothing preventing LL from adding things like favorite wearables, area search, etc.. that are useful (and don't get me started on Black Dragon's client side posing tool and lighting). That is a big part of what holds people back from using the official viewer. It seems it would be in their interest to have more control over the software people use for SL, and that if they paid more attention to why people use TPVs, that could bring more people to use the standard client.

[Paul Hexem]

It'd require some time and effort. LL just did PBR and used up the two decades worth of the time and effort they had allocated.

[SylviElle Zaftig]

I haven't used the LL viewer ever since Emerald (and subsequently Phoenix/Imprudence) came out. I went back to using the LL viewer for some reason i don't remember, maybe to test a problem i was having with FS and I hated it on log-in. So many QoL features that FS has is simply not accessible on the LL viewer. I have installed other TPV's as well to try them out, some are better than FS but lack a lot of features FS has that I use as a baseline.

If LL ever made their client usable...maybe I'd go back to use it, but it's been damn near forever.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

4 hours ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

Why does LL not integrate more QoL features from TPVs?

That's like asking why College Frat boys, live off ramen and pizza delivery, instead of learning how to cook properly.

 

"Duh finkin r hard, an it tayks tyme away from playing NyteFart on mah SonTendSoft Playcube 720 wif mah gamer bros, seriously dude, r u likke ofer 25 or sumtin? LAME!"

 

Edited June 25 by Zalificent Corvinus

[Flea Yatsenko]

The LL viewer is already overly complex and intimidating for new users. If anything it needs fewer features to not scare away new people. The LL viewer, in theory, should be really easy to use, run great, and have no bugs to keep users coming back. It doesn't need more features. It needs editing AV, exploring. and socializing to be extremely easy and not cumbersome. Which it really isn't right now. Which is why adding more features is not good. Specially when TPVs do such a great job already.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 minute ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

If anything it needs fewer features to not scare away new people

LL have been there, seen that, done that, learned it's a bloody stupid idea, and dropped it in the trash where it belongs.

QoL features and the lack thereof, are why the Official LL Fail Viewer is only used by 30% of users.

 

[xXSuicidalIdolXx Candycane]

So here's my take on things when I was one of the first mentors at the new welcome Hub back then I got some first-hand Impressions from a few moles that I talked with one in particular and I asked the same question and a couple more and it was a very snarky reply. The couple questions that I had asked was why can't we just buy out firestorm and the reply that was given to me is why would we do that that's just not going to help anything, I also asked why can't we all just get along why can't Linden Labs support firestorm like allow other mentors to use Firestorm instead of the actual viewer in the reply back was you are under protection if you use Linden labs services if anything happens on The Firestorm viewer you are not protected. I honestly from my experience feel that the people who started with Second Life do not like change they take huge Pride and find that changing things is unacceptable because that's not how they grew up with second life they wanted to stay as is for the main viewer. When I say I got snarky replies from the mole that I was talking with it was like they were upset that I was even considering these questions. Another thing I said in the thread yesterday was I personally believe that they don't have the money or Manpower to change certain things and while they did do PBR and they are doing the mobile app that might be a different type of manpower? I don't think anybody will understand the current situation and the question that the original poster had stated I think it really comes down to money, Manpower and just not wanting to change. As much as we want things to be implemented in the original viewer I don't think it will ever happen because it's their business their way and they must know that people don't like it but it's one of those things where you can either be on their platform or don't and it's a really crappy thing but what are you going to do? I don't think from talking to the mole that they just don't like third party viewers and I don't know if they see them as a threat or it's jealousy we could be asking this question over and over. Either way it sucks but at least we do have other options if we don't like it in the end

[xXSuicidalIdolXx Candycane]

51 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

The LL viewer is already overly complex and intimidating for new users. If anything it needs fewer features to not scare away new people. The LL viewer, in theory, should be really easy to use, run great, and have no bugs to keep users coming back. It doesn't need more features. It needs editing AV, exploring. and socializing to be extremely easy and not cumbersome. Which it really isn't right now. Which is why adding more features is not good. Specially when TPVs do such a great job already.

Honestly I've thought about that a lot Maybe the answer is that all along maybe they don't want to overcomplicate their main viewer I always thought that the main viewer is a good middle ground for new residents since second life is already complicated it offers a simple way other than Firestorm and there's other options if you want to take things more advanced you can move to other viewers

[Perrie Juran]

I was going to say that the biggest blockade to LL adopting many of the TPV features that make Second Life easier to  navigate is EGO but actually I don't think that has been a major issue since Oz Linden departed. I am of the personal opinion that he did more to hurt SL than help it but that would be a subject for its own thread.

I have been quite outspoken going back to when it was in Beta about how horrible CHUI is.

Communication needs to be easy and simple in Second Life but CHUI makes Chat and some other functions frustratingly complex.

I got my hand slapped way back then for saying this and I don't think it is as big a problem now, but too many features were designed by people who didn't have a Second Life.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

30 minutes ago, Perrie Juran said:

I have been quite outspoken going back to when it was in Beta about how horrible CHUI is.

Communication needs to be easy and simple in Second Life but CHUI makes Chat and some other functions frustratingly complex.

One of the things I love about Catznip is it's not a 100% CHUI clone.

CHUI is an abomination, apparently designed to enable voice spammers, paralysed from the chin down, who live in iron lung machines to easily switch voice spam from one "conversation tab" to another with a single laser-detected-eyeball-movement mouse alternative blink to click.

 

[Jennifer Boyle]

5 hours ago, xXSuicidalIdolXx Candycane said:

Honestly I've thought about that a lot Maybe the answer is that all along maybe they don't want to overcomplicate their main viewer I always thought that the main viewer is a good middle ground for new residents since second life is already complicated it offers a simple way other than Firestorm and there's other options if you want to take things more advanced you can move to other viewers

When new users use the official viewer, it makes it harder for them to get help from other residents because most older residents don't use it, and, therefore, cannot walk them through its menus.

Edited June 26 by Jennifer Boyle

[xXSuicidalIdolXx Candycane]

1 hour ago, Perrie Juran said:

I was going to say that the biggest blockade to LL adopting many of the TPV features that make Second Life easier to  navigate is EGO but actually I don't think that has been a major issue since Oz Linden departed. I am of the personal opinion that he did more to hurt SL than help it but that would be a subject for its own thread.

I have been quite outspoken going back to when it was in Beta about how horrible CHUI is.

Communication needs to be easy and simple in Second Life but CHUI makes Chat and some other functions frustratingly complex.

I got my hand slapped way back then for saying this and I don't think it is as big a problem now, but too many features were designed by people who didn't have a Second Life.

So just for clarification I arrived in Second Life 3 years ago and I've seen the name Oz Linden a few times around the forms not trying to get into anything but when did he depart and who was Oz Linden for me and those who don't know?

[xXSuicidalIdolXx Candycane]

40 minutes ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

When new users use the official viewer, it makes it harder for them to get help from other residents because most older residents don't use it, and, therefore, cannot walk them trough its menus.

hmmm... I suppose you have a point again me being only 3 years old a lot of people have a better insight and knowledge that I do of the system I guess from my point of view of being into technology and being on a computer since I was 5 years old it was just a matter of just sitting down and not giving up I know a lot of people aren't like that but what you just said makes a lot of sense. In fact your comment actually helped me better understand because I had no idea that was even a thing I mean as a mentor when I was part of the program none of that really came up it was basically told to us that we can only promote the actual official life viewer so hearing that makes more sense now

[Zalificent Corvinus]

17 minutes ago, xXSuicidalIdolXx Candycane said:

So just for clarification I arrived in Second Life 3 years ago and I've seen the name "He of the Bad Beard" a few times around the forms not trying to get into anything but when did he depart and who was "He of the Bad Beard" for me and those who don't know?

"He of the Bad Beard", was the LL God of Tech, for centuries.

When fitted mesh was rolled out, he apparently celebrated, by buying a new beard, it was a sculpty.

He was also the driving force behind moving SL from it's own server farm to CloudCrap, with a massive loss of performance, and higher server operation costs.

He promised CloudCrap would be "better, faster, cheaper", it ended as "None out of 3 ain't bad".

He packed his bags and ran off, just after completing the move to CloudCrap, and just before people who employed him could find out what a mistake that was.

 

 

[Caitlin Tobias]

9 hours ago, xXSuicidalIdolXx Candycane said:

hmmm... I suppose you have a point again me being only 3 years old a lot of people have a better insight and knowledge that I do of the system I guess from my point of view of being into technology and being on a computer since I was 5 years old it was just a matter of just sitting down and not giving up I know a lot of people aren't like that but what you just said makes a lot of sense. In fact your comment actually helped me better understand because I had no idea that was even a thing I mean as a mentor when I was part of the program none of that really came up it was basically told to us that we can only promote the actual official life viewer so hearing that makes more sense now

The bolded part is not true. Mentors use the LL Viewer because all the tutorials at the Welcome Hub are created with it, and most new accounts start with the LL Viewer. Mentors are not instructed to 'promote' the LL Viewer; it's simply more convenient to use the same viewer as new residents when assisting them. A lot of mentors prefer using Firestorm as their primary viewer and can help (new) residents in both viewers regardless, if needed.

[Cristiano Midnight]

12 hours ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

The LL viewer is already overly complex and intimidating for new users. If anything it needs fewer features to not scare away new people. The LL viewer, in theory, should be really easy to use, run great, and have no bugs to keep users coming back. It doesn't need more features. It needs editing AV, exploring. and socializing to be extremely easy and not cumbersome. Which it really isn't right now. Which is why adding more features is not good. Specially when TPVs do such a great job already.

This is counterintuitive. The additional features in Firestorm make SL easier to use. Incorporating some popular features from it into the SL viewer would help, not make it more complex.

[Beren Barragar]

I've just discovered the Kokua viewer, which is basically the Linden viewer with a few extras added, including Area Search and Favorite Wearables, as well as a built in AO. Cristiano, I think you owe me a beer.

[Sid Nagy]

If all viewers would be the same there would be no use for TPV's.
So choose your flavor and love it.
Each viewer has its lovers, haters and people who take the matter as a religion. You can't win them all as long as there are different viewers out there that are allowed to contact Second Life.

And when TPV's integrate new LL features that is considered normal.
If LL would integrate a few features (those that Cris mentioned for instance) it would only give them criticism and laughter. "See, they need the tools from our totally superior holy grail*" "Highly payed professionals who can't even come up with own ideas, they have to steal from out totally superior holy grail*".
I can totally see why LL tries to avoid going that way.

*= placeholder for preferred TPV.

Edited Wednesday at 04:01 PM by Sid Nagy
Small text improvements.

[Beren Barragar]

Oh, by the way, forgot to mention - when you first fire up Kokua and check out the 'favorite wearables' it somehow finds and loads the ones you have already set up in Firestorm, so you don't even have to redo everything. It's like magic, or something.

I think I'll have a chaser with that beer: an Islay single malt please, Cristiano.

 

[Flea Yatsenko]

16 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

LL have been there, seen that, done that, learned it's a bloody stupid idea, and dropped it in the trash where it belongs.

QoL features and the lack thereof, are why the Official LL Fail Viewer is only used by 30% of users.

 

There were a lot of less people who grew up on iPads and smart phones when SL dropped the much hated viewer 2.0 interface update than there are now. Times have changed, the average smart phone or computer user spends most of their time mindlessly scrolling through an infinite wall of algorithmically generated brain garbage.

I was around for it, the average person on the internet was far more qualified to use computers back then than they are now. Those old internet users love features. The new ones get confused if a web page isn't 75% white space with only one or two things on it at a time.

[AmeliaJ08]

I think I remember reading from someone - possibly a Firestorm dev? - that Area Search was quite 'hard' on the simulator with the number of requests it makes to work. LL might be more wary of features like that as an example but probably willing to overlook it in third party viewers.

That said it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to feel that way given Firestorm's dominant position as the most used viewer. I suppose it's a feature that doesn't get very regular use though, many users will not even be aware it exists and while it is exceptionally useful you only ever use it sporadically.

I despise the user interface of the official viewer but I'm sure given enough time I could get over that, I've just no desire to do so. What is striking is basic features like an integrated AO are missing, this would be incredibly simple to implement and it's just massively more user friendly IMO. Makes more sense even for new users to get to grips with, editing a scripted AO is probably one of those things that many noobies balk at, I remember being quite confused the first time I tried it. Favourite Wearables is another thing that is nonsensically missing, if LL really want to improve usability then features like this should be high priority for inclusion.

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 01:39 PM by AmeliaJ08

[Spiffy Voxel]

Funnily enough, I decided to install and try out the latest official LL viewer again a few months ago — mostly, it has to be said, to see if I could replicate some possible bugs I'd come across in Alchemy, my primary viewer these day. On my system (2017 iMac 27-inch, macOS 13.6.7) it's actually surprisingly good! Then again, since Alchemy leans more towards the look and feel of the official viewer, there wasn't a huge leap involved. Your Mileage May Vary, obviously, but I can say that it's a massive improvement over what was on over this time last year!

Could it benefit from some quality-of-life improvements from other viewers? Yes, and it received such an improvement a few years ago when the graphics tuning from Firestorm got ported over, so I don't think it's ego on the Lab's part.

[Ramen Jedburgh]

17 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

That's like asking why College Frat boys, live off ramen and pizza delivery, instead of learning how to cook properly.

 

What's wrong with ramen 😛

[diamond Marchant]

15 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

He promised CloudCrap would be "better, faster, cheaper", it ended as "None out of 3 ain't bad".

As I recall, CloudCrap had two interesting consequences. First, while porting the communications protocol for region crossing, someone noticed that the code was "suboptimal" and actually fixed it. So we got region crossings that sorta work reliably as long as you don't hit a 4-corner. Second, Linden Lab became more attractive to owners/investors as they no longer had to come up with cash to maintain a data center(s) and they could adjust expenses (to AWS) in response to demand and perhaps get a tax break by deducting all the expenses in the year they occurred.

It still annoys me that we could have had better region crossings for all those years if someone had just read the code.

Edited Wednesday at 02:51 PM by diamond Marchant

[Love Zhaoying]

Wouldn't it be, "Qo2L?"