Is Lindenlab choosing a doomed path for SL ? Tell us if the EEP and PBR introduction changed the way you play SL

[Caitlin Tobias]

13 hours ago, RicDelMoro said:

 if you are happy with all these changes tell us here.
 

I am very happy with all these changes! 🙂

[Fraser Lisle]

1 hour ago, Istelathis said:

True story, to get my new PC without making too much of a sacrifice, I am going to sell mah blood.  My previous laptop was six years old (I believe) the plastics around the hinges had disintegrated as the oils had dried out due to the heating.  The 1050 at the time, could handle PBR but not by any means fantastically.  Plus with all of the new stuff coming out for computers as of late, mostly AI, it was time to for an upgrade.

So, I went against my better judgement, got a credit card that has no interest for 12 months and purchased a computer for under $1000, an inexpensive monitor, and 32gb of additional ram.  Donating plasma should have it paid off in less than two months, and I expect to have the desktop for another five years with upgrading, before I move on to something else.

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7700 8-Core Processor               (3792.78 MHz)
Memory: 48278 MB (Used: 504 MB)
Concurrency: 16
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 11 64-bit (Build 22631.3737)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4060 Ti/PCIe/SSE2
Graphics Card Memory: 7949 MB
Graphics Card Memory (Detected): 7949 MB
Graphics Card Memory (Budget): Unlimited

 

This may be an option for some of you looking to upgrade your computer, but don't have the money handy.  Look for a place that buys yer plasma, where I live there is usually a bonus for the first month.  I get $800, for I think it is about 8 donations, with being a new "donor".  I have setup my first session for next week.

 

I am kind of happy, that I have a reason to upgrade my computer again.  Not just for SL, just for running things.  It felt as though technology was getting stagnant, and there was no need anymore to upgrade.. unlike the 90s and earlier 2000s where it felt like my computer almost required to be upgraded or replaced every couple of years.

 

He is gone again?  

😔

I'm starting to develop abandonment issues.

It's the CPUs that make it feel stagnant, genuinely most people could get by fine on an Intel core iwhatever from 2012. They're fast, multi core and really don't struggle with many or potentially any modern task.

Sure newer is faster but the way those older CPUs have just lasted for what feels forever is how they cope with current day tasks. Moores law is not dead but the average person got a computer that is extremely fast in the 2010s, comparatively speaking.

GPU is different story though, gen on gen large performance and efficiency improvements, entirely new APIs, crazy features like DLSS, real time raytracing etc. They are the component that has aged fastest but even so stuff like Nvidia's 10 series from 2016-2019 copes pretty well with SL even with all this PBR stuff. You might as well consider it the one thing you can expect to need to replace every 3 years now.

I understand how many haven't upgraded in a long time though, it is definitely not the 90s anymore. 2010s PC's are often still perfectly usable for less intensive everyday tasks.

Edited June 22 by Fraser Lisle

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

I would absolutely kill to have the building tools they have in The Sims 4. Aside from making my sims do it with each other all the time (yay Wicked Whims mod), I spend all of my time building stuff. A well designed system would allow content creators to create assets for it that plug into it and end users could make their own houses and things. Granted, home builders would not like it, but still, it would be nice to have.

Yeah, well, that's nice but...

 

LL would have to design such a system, and NO it wouldn't be "industry standard" anything. The system would have to be locked down pretty tightly, in terms of how objects are classed, how they work, and where you can put them.

That kind of modular system needs a grid to connect to. You can't just plonk a sims 4 wall anywhere, it runs from one grid node to another. This ain't no "bb.moveobjects" cheat system.

 

Content in systems like that makes SL content creation look like pre-schoolers finger painting. Just don't ask about BHAV code, or the way it handles meshes, or the way it handles materials, and textures. Hell, SL doesn't even use the right texture format for that kind of system.

 

Also.

2 hours ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

(yay Wicked Whims mod

Y'all had the nerve to make a sarcastic comment about my Modded Skyrim having more boob shape sliders than SL has for an entire body.

Hahahahaha.

[Arielle Popstar]

23 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

In software development you can't really take one staff member who maintains one project and put them on another and expect them to be effective. There's a lot of specialised knowledge at play.

They could contract it out then to fill the gaps for the specialists they are missing or short of. Not like they are broke.

[Paul Hexem]

6 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

1. It's not "decades old".

2. It didn't become an "industry standard" until some years after its launch.

3. It's only an "industry standard" for SOME types of software, types that are very little like SL.

So...

4. what you just posted is as relevant as claiming SL should adopt the standards in Sage Business Accountancy software.

Quote

 

Starting in the 1980s, a number of rendering researchers worked on establishing a solid theoretical basis for rendering, including physical correctness. Much of this work was done at the Cornell University Program of Computer Graphics; a 1997 paper from that lab[1] describes the work done at Cornell in this area to that point.

"Physically Based Shading" was introduced by Yoshiharu Gotanda during the course Physically-Based Shading Models in Film and Game Production at the SIGGRAPH 2010. And followed by the course Physically Based Shading in Theory and Practice organised by Stephen Hill and Stephen McAuley between 2012 and 2020.

 

Physically based rendering - Wikipedia

6 hours ago, Jackson Redstar said:

most of the 'tweak' guidelines published are pretty worthless and do nothing really

Because they're not that complex. A couple check boxes in your graphics settings gets the job done.

6 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

IF they want to spend the time ... 
i'm not so sure, i downloaded the previous FS this afternoon. It wasn't a good experience at all to try the pbr release.

5 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

But do all of them have the knowledge to do so?

5 hours ago, BillFletcher said:

i just want to log on and do SL, not tweek my computer.

Do you change the oil in your car? Add wiper fluid? Rotate the tires? Put gas in it? Get the brakes serviced? Or do you expect to buy it and drive it forever without any maintenance or upkeep? No? Why do you think computers are different?

3 hours ago, BriannaLovey said:

Why don't you set up a charity to buy people hardware then? No? Opinion discarded, I will proceed with my current plans to build a base of users large enough to halt the demand for PBR products.

On these forums I've offered, quite often, to help people get their computers upgraded (including sending parts from my own collection), or at least get on a path to do so. Nobody has ever taken me up on my offer.

People don't want help, they don't want it to work, they want to complain and whine because "all change bad!"

[Zalificent Corvinus]

4 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Quote

 

Starting in the 1980s, a number of rendering researchers worked on establishing a solid theoretical basis for rendering, including physical correctness. Much of this work was done at the Cornell University Program of Computer Graphics; a 1997 paper from that lab[1] describes the work done at Cornell in this area to that point.

"Physically Based Shading" was introduced by Yoshiharu Gotanda during the course Physically-Based Shading Models in Film and Game Production at the SIGGRAPH 2010. And followed by the course Physically Based Shading in Theory and Practice organised by Stephen Hill and Stephen McAuley between 2012 and 2020.

 

Expand  

Physically based rendering - Wikipedia

Before you link a page and selectively quote an irrelevant bit, maybe you should READ the damn page.

 

""Physically Based Shading" was introduced by Yoshiharu Gotanda during the course Physically-Based Shading Models in Film and Game Production at the SIGGRAPH 2010.  And followed by the course Physically Based Shading in Theory and Practice organised by Stephen Hill and Stephen McAuley between 2012 and 2020"

 

Siggraph 2010, if you search, you'll find I've stated THAT date before with regard to PBR, as THAT wass the graphics industry trade show when they launched it.

It becomes a usable thing when its available to use, not when an academic writes a paper suggesting the idea might be possible.

 

"The first successful, yet partial implementation of physically-based rendering in a video game can be found in the 2013 title Remember Me"

 

Another EPIC Comprehension fail on your part there.

 

[BriannaLovey]

15 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Physically based rendering - Wikipedia

Because they're not that complex. A couple check boxes in your graphics settings gets the job done.

Do you change the oil in your car? Add wiper fluid? Rotate the tires? Put gas in it? Get the brakes serviced? Or do you expect to buy it and drive it forever without any maintenance or upkeep? No? Why do you think computers are different?

On these forums I've offered, quite often, to help people get their computers upgraded (including sending parts from my own collection), or at least get on a path to do so. Nobody has ever taken me up on my offer.

People don't want help, they don't want it to work, they want to complain and whine because "all change bad!"

Oh I am not complaining. If you saw my past posts, you would see how I recommended viewers without PBR to people in order to help them avoid having to spend money on new hardware. I was asked to stop though :c

[Extrude Ragu]

20 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

They could contract it out then to fill the gaps for the specialists they are missing or short of. Not like they are broke.

In software it is not so simple. Whilst software engineers are usually specialised in certain languages and disciplines, they don't come with existing knowledge of your product.

Just because someones good at C++ doesn't mean they will be proficient at maintaining or upgrading the viewer for instance. It still takes a lot of time for a software engineer to familiarise themselves with a code base, and usually requires existing developers to take time out of whatever they are developing to train the new people.

A lot of knowledge about how things work live only in the brains of certain developers who have been with the company 10 years. Of course, much will be documented but even knowing where to look in documentation can be a skill.

It's just the nature of the beast.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

13 hours ago, Istelathis said:

I don't think they have much of a choice, as technology continues to progress, people are likely to move on to other platforms as they start to provide more services to their user base.  LL could keep the graphics the same, and keep the platform in a maintenance mode, but eventually it might come to be that we find that few people log in.  I know this is regarding graphics, but that is just one facet of it all, they have to keep up with the times or will likely end up like active worlds.

I don't think Linden is trying to destroy itself, or is being short sighted, they are trying to adapt in a changing world.  But, there are TPVs out there that should give your SL an extended life, look for CoolVL as an example, it should keep your computer running for a while yet.

But.. 

That is just my opinion.  

There are no other platforms people can move to if they give up on SL, nothing that is as well developed as SL is.

LL could have said, we are good enough without PRB we are staying as we are.

Honestly, how many more years does SL have anyway?

[BriannaLovey]

Just now, BilliJo Aldrin said:

There are no other platforms people can move to if they give up on SL, nothing that is as well developed as SL is.

LL could have said, we are good enough without PRB we are staying as we are.

Honestly, how many more years does SL have anyway?

There is OpenSim. It is already popular among certain demographics who have been banned from SL, similar to how many alt tech platforms are popular with people who have been banned from Youtube, etc. It got a big spike after the whole modesty layer thing happened. It is likely the most viable replacement for SL as of now.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

12 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Just because someones good at C++ doesn't mean they will be proficient at maintaining or upgrading the viewer for instance.

Just because somebody has spent years tinkering with the LL Fail-Viewer doesn't mean they are in anyway suitable to crowbar in PBR.

We got ample proof of that in December, which is why we're in this mess now.

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

There is OpenSim. It is already popular among certain demographics who have been banned from SL, similar to how many alt tech platforms are popular with people who have been banned from Youtube, etc. It got a big spike after the whole modesty layer thing happened. It is likely the most viable replacement for SL as of now.

yes, say what you want, but compared to SL, open sim is dead. If i have to end up there, i will, but i won’t be happy 😬

Edited June 22 by BilliJo Aldrin
added a comma

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, BilliJo Aldrin said:

yes, say what you want, but compared to SL, open sim is dead. If i have to end up there, i will but i won’t be happy 😬

No offence but to me you seem rather easy to please

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

No offence but to me you seem rather easy to please

As long as i can look good, thats all i need 😁

[BriannaLovey]

4 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

yes, say what you want, but compared to SL, open sim is dead. If i have to end up there, i will but i won’t be happy 😬

It really depends on the grid. Some grids are dead, some are very lively, some are invite-only so we cannot know for sure.

[Arielle Popstar]

18 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

In software it is not so simple. Whilst software engineers are usually specialised in certain languages and disciplines, they don't come with existing knowledge of your product.

Just because someones good at C++ doesn't mean they will be proficient at maintaining or upgrading the viewer for instance. It still takes a lot of time for a software engineer to familiarise themselves with a code base, and usually requires existing developers to take time out of whatever they are developing to train the new people.

A lot of knowledge about how things work live only in the brains of certain developers who have been with the company 10 years. Of course, much will be documented but even knowing where to look in documentation can be a skill.

It's just the nature of the beast.

It is part of the reason they do meetings and if a developer is working on one segment of the code, it would really not be that difficult familiarising themselves with the pertinent parts if they have a few years in the industry behind them. Sometimes I feel some are just too quick to make excuses for why SL's usual answer to when is "Soon" which is somewhere between next year and when hell freezes over.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Just now, BriannaLovey said:

It really depends on the grid. Some grids are dead, some are very lively, some are invite-only so we cannot know for sure.

I heard land is cheap in open sim, that would be a defo positive for me

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I heard land is cheap in open sim, that would be a defo positive for me

Cheap to free and no problem for you to look similar to the pictures you've posted. As far as how many are there, well you only need/want one at a time right?

[Istelathis]

18 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

There are no other platforms people can move to if they give up on SL, nothing that is as well developed as SL is.

LL could have said, we are good enough without PRB we are staying as we are.

Honestly, how many more years does SL have anyway?

They could have, but it would slowly become even less relevant as people moved on to other platforms that offered features that they would rather use.  Imagine, if you will, if SL had not changed one bit since 2012 - and how many people would still be logging in.  If they never offered mesh, take for example.  

 

6 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

yes, say what you want, but compared to SL, open sim is dead. If i have to end up there, i will, but i won’t be happy 😬

OpenSim is actually pretty lively if you join groups, I only belong to one and get weekly notices.  Here check this out:

 

https://opensimworld.com/events

We are at the end of this week, so it looks blank, forward it to next week.  

The thing with opensim, is that just about everyone owns a region, there are more regions in OS than SL, and less users, but there is probably a few thousand people who log in daily, and probably more that just log in for the events.

 

Bad news though, some grids might start supporting PBR 🤣 Also, I gots mah chatbot chatting up a storm in my region, it is a little dragon skull.  If I feel so inclined, I'll add it to some towns folk, give them personalities and so on.. I'm just crazy enough to do it.  You can't escape the winds of change BilliJo!  The bots, and PBR will soon take over the web, and have us all at their mercy!

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Caitlin Tobias said:

I am very happy with all these changes! 🙂

Me too! Change ain't gonna change me!

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Istelathis said:

26 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

There are no other platforms people can move to if they give up on SL, nothing that is as well developed as SL is.

LL could have said, we are good enough without PRB we are staying as we are.

Honestly, how many more years does SL have anyway?

Expand  

They could have, but it would slowly become even less relevant as people moved on to other platforms that offered features that they would rather use.  Imagine, if you will, if SL had not changed one bit since 2012 - and how many people would still be logging in.  If they never offered mesh, take for example.  

People would have complained SL sucks compared to "AAA games", like they complain anyway.

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Caitlin Tobias said:

I am very happy with all these changes! 🙂

Me too. I hope those having trouble will find workarounds soon. I certainly had to do that along the way for 20 years, and with major inconvenience at times!

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

Bad news though, some grids might start supporting PBR 🤣 Also, I gots mah chatbot chatting up a storm in my region, it is a little dragon skull.  If I feel so inclined, I'll add it to some towns folk, give them personalities and so on.. I'm just crazy enough to do it.  You can't escape the winds of change BilliJo!  The bots, and PBR will soon take over the web, and have us all at their mercy!

There won't be a forced use of the PR viewer though, that's the important thing. Problem is new updates to those viewers that have the PBR only option unless an independent coder reworks the code to make it optional.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

Idea: If your PC doesn't like PBR, just use the Mobile App!

 

[bigmoe Whitfield]

10 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

There won't be a forced use of the PR viewer though, that's the important thing. Problem is new updates to those viewers that have the PBR only option unless an independent coder reworks the code to make it optional.

 

optional, that's going to be an issue,  once adoption happens more and more,  less will be visible with a fall back viewer.