Is Lindenlab choosing a doomed path for SL ? Tell us if the EEP and PBR introduction changed the way you play SL

[stlshayne]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

Oh yeah. There's no denying that LL dropped the ball here. Like I said elsewhere though, that's pretty standard for LL. We really should be used to it by now.

Wait I thought the car was the computer in this scenario and the upkeep was regular upgrades to make sure it's not out of date. Am I too tired?

[Paul Hexem]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

I should not have to expect that enhanced features comes at the price of extra heat, increased power consumption and decreased performance in the sense of FPS. 

Why not? That's normal for computers.

I don't know if you're aware of/remember the old Crysis game memes back in the day. When that game came out, there wasn't a consumer PC invented that could run it at any kind of high settings. The jokes became "Can my PC run Crysis? Sure, while toasting food."

[Vic Mornington]

I'm just going to tell you a few stories from my point of view.

I'm in my late 40's, soon to be 50 in a couple of years time.  As such i hang out at a lot of the clubs that plays 70's/80's music.  I am friends with a lot of people who are in their late 50's or have retired and are living on a pension or small savings.

Over the course of the last 3 days over 10 people have said they are now leaving Second Life.  5 of them have given up their land and have already left.  The clubs that i am going to that have an older population...their traffic has plummeted.

Linden Lab are sacrificing the older population in a HOPE (and thats all it is...a hope) of brining in a younger crowd.

...and before someone commeents by saying "just buy a new computer".  Try telling that to a pensioner who is living on a state pension in the UK, who's only real social interaction was Second Life.  The planet is in the middle of an economic downturn, not everyone is a rich.

Edited June 25 by Vic Mornington

[Irina Forwzy]

49 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

There's been several shortages in the last ten years. During one of the more recent ones I was several generations behind on a GTX 970 card. It struggled, but I was able to get by until I caught an RTX 2070 on sale. That I'm still using happily, as a matter of fact.

The important part was that I was able to just buy it and install it, because I was already prepared.

2080 RTX and there was a patch of Diablo IV where I'd crash miserably.  I had paid an arm and a leg for that particular graphics when it came out; yet in one of Diablo's patches I had issues. Next patch things got fixed. And no, I didn't need to update my drivers for it to fix.

Sometimes even the best rigs fail. At times it is due to not updating our own drivers (True) but sometimes they do introduce instability on PCs.

[Qie Niangao]

25 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

While true,  how do you apply an environment setting toward a parcel or sim that is liked by both the person that doesn't have PBR and the person with PBR?  I know it can be done, I've tested it in my own area (at least to my specs in PBR), but there's always a risk that someone will find it jarring because within their adaptation they have issues with it.

Assuming you leave the regular windlights and EEPs and opt into the Battlescars and Specter ones.

I think this is an important question that I wish I had the expertise to answer. IMHO (and it's only an opinion) those wouldn't be my choice as the best places to start for a PBR-friendly EEP, but again, somebody who knows whereof they speak would be welcome here. (I've sometimes copied many settings in @Jenna Huntsman's Studio Sabrehagen free PBR EEP collection—not that I can aspire to emulating actual meteorological data across a day cycle!)

Also, I believe that leaving the Reflection Probe Ambience setting as flexible as possible (I generally use 0.01) should help the PBR lovers get more out of the Environment, whatever the non-PBR person may favor, but be ready to add an assortment of projected and diffuse interior lighting as well as those reflection probes. 

[Dorientje Woller]

4 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

I have been using and programing computers for the past... wait... counting... 45 years... Do you really think that, if there was a way, I won't have found it already ?

And no, the drivers settings have strictly nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Strange to say that from a programmer/software engineer that drivers doesn't matter. My experience as a novice in software/programming has shown me that drivers can fix issues with performance and graphical issues in games/applications. And if you have read well, I wasn't talking about drivers, I was talking about your nVidia Control Panel in how to get the full color spectrum of your card/screen, something that even a reviewer on YouTube didn't know at all.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

8 minutes ago, stlshayne said:

And the dealer "[doing work to] enhance it" in theory should be part of maintenance and upkeep. Gotta make sure it passes inspection. 

Oh yeah. There's no denying that LL dropped the ball here. Like I said elsewhere though, that's pretty standard for LL. We really should be used to it by now.

Another car comparison:  I bought a new car in April, and still have trouble figuring out some features.  Of course my Salesman is either "not usually there" or could even be gone. I didn't call the dealership yet and say, "who do I ask questions"?  When I did bring up ONE question before, I was told the Salesman should have walked me through it LOL.  But anyway, I subscribed to a YouTube channel about this car and see features that boggle my mind ("does mine REALLY have that?!?").

Here's how it is on topic - In all these ways for me, getting a new car is similar to Second Life: It's not intuitive, there are hidden features, and I don't know where to go for questions.

I can't do that with Second Life, there's only Google and..here, on the Forums.

 

[Paul Hexem]

2 minutes ago, Vic Mornington said:

I'm just going to tell you a few stories from my point of view.

I'm in my late 40's, soon to be 50 in a couple of years time.  As such i hang out at a lot of the clubs that plays 70's/80's music.  I am friends with a lot of people who are in their late 50's or have retired and are living on a pension or small savings.

Over the course of the last 3 days over 10 people have said they are now leaving Second Life.  5 of them have given up their land and have already left.  The clubs that i am going to that have an older population...their traffic has plummeted.

Linden Lab are sacrificing the older population in a HOPE (and thats all it is...a hope) of brining in a younger crowd.

Not to get to dark, but... Yes? Eventually we're gonna die, especially if we're old. If LL doesn't attract new customers, they die with us.

3 minutes ago, Vic Mornington said:

...and before someone commeents by saying "just buy a new computer".  Try telling that to a pensioner who is living on a state pension in the UK, who's only real social interaction was Second Life.  The planet is in the middle of an economic downturn, not everyone is a rich.

We've had 10 years to prepare for this. You don't have to be rich to build a PC over the course of 10 years. We're talking coming up with less than 50 bucks a year if you do it right. If you can't do that, you have bigger things to worry about than "can I use SL?"

[Dorientje Woller]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

Not to get to dark, but... Yes? Eventually we're gonna die, especially if we're old. If LL doesn't attract new customers, they die with us.

We've had 10 years to prepare for this. You don't have to be rich to build a PC over the course of 10 years. We're talking coming up with less than 50 bucks a year if you do it right. If you can't do that, you have bigger things to worry about than "can I use SL?"

True ... my system is a living thing. Upgrade the CPU, in a later stage, upgrade the graphical card, memory, motherboard and so one in a contious circle.

[Vic Mornington]

3 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

We've had 10 years to prepare for this. You don't have to be rich to build a PC over the course of 10 years. We're talking coming up with less than 50 bucks a year if you do it right. If you can't do that, you have bigger things to worry about than "can I use SL?"

Ok Paul, show me where Linden Lab has said to prepare for a graphics renderer pipeline that will make their CURRENT (read that...CURRENT) min spec's on their website unable to run Second Life?

I'll wait...

[Qie Niangao]

25 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

I see your are using an nVidea card ... are you using the full color spectrum of it? By default those cards, and with each update of the drivers, are set on a limited color pallete. Go to your nVidia Configuration Panel -> tab change resolution -> scroll down to: Apply following settings -> check the nVidia-color settings -> select with Dynamic Range Input: "Complete"

20 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

The items I had in PBR were still horribly dark for me.  Any windlight i chose would automatically shift within about 2 seconds to just a dark aesthetic. As if I was in night mode. 

It was odd.  Other than that, the world looked slightly more saturated in color even in old pieces when I compared the old and new viewer side by side.

Suddenly I wonder: How much of what folks see with PBR being idiosyncratically too bright or dark could be some weird interaction between Windows 11's HDR and whatever their HDR-capable monitor is doing? This is all black magic to me, so probably that's what makes me suspicious.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

We've had 10 years to prepare for this. You don't have to be rich to build a PC over the course of 10 years. We're talking coming up with less than 50 bucks a year if you do it right. If you can't do that, you have bigger things to worry about than "can I use SL?"

There is no benefit Paul. there is the problem. The "eye candy" is not apparent enough to motivate many resident to sell their blood, sweat or tears to get a card that will show off the new Bling. 

From what I am hearing so far in the forums, I'm not even motivated to look for a better card for myself like the 3090 or 4060's that I was before because of the reports that there are quite a few who have troubles even with those Nvidia's.

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, Dorientje Woller said:

True ... my system is a living thing. Upgrade the CPU, in a later stage, upgrade the graphical card, memory, motherboard and so one in a contious circle.

Bingo.

Just now, Vic Mornington said:

Ok Paul, show me where Linden Lab has said to prepare for a graphics renderer pipeline that will make their CURRENT (read that...CURRENT) min spec's on their website unable to run Second Life?

I'll wait...

In 2011 (I think?) they released ALM. We've had since then, over a decade, to get our systems up to spec for it.

If you simply turned off ALM and ignored the last decade, this is 100% on you.

[Qie Niangao]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

From what I am hearing so far in the forums, I'm not even motivated to look for a better card for myself like the 3090 or 4060's that I was before because of the reports that there are quite a few who have troubles even with those Nvidia's.

I sure wish they'd figure out how they're managing to have troubles with those cards. I guarantee that most of us who are having no trouble at all are using much less capable cards than those (and, as I've already confessed, in my case a lesser CPU).

[AmeliaJ08]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

There is no benefit Paul. there is the problem. The "eye candy" is not apparent enough to motivate many resident to sell their blood, sweat or tears to get a card that will show off the new Bling. 

From what I am hearing so far in the forums, I'm not even motivated to look for a better card for myself like the 3090 or 4060's that I was before because of the reports that there are quite a few who have troubles even with those Nvidia's.

Having problems with those cards makes no sense, you're simply hearing from a minority that have found a way for this not to be a solution... somehow.

When things work fine (and they do) people don't talk about it. a 3090 or 4060 is a perfectly suitable graphics card, it's significantly more than is required. It works fine. Nobody will talk about it when it works fine though.

If said 3090 or 4060 has some broken driver installation, incorrect graphics settings, an inch of dust clogging its heatsinks, ancient thermal paste, hardware faults, broken fans etc then yeah, maybe there's issues. That's the type of thing that is leading to reports of problems. PBR SL has its bugs but it plays nicely with the hardware, it's not at fault if a strong GPU is having problems.

 

 

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

There is no benefit Paul. there is the problem. The "eye candy" is not apparent enough to motivate many resident to sell their blood, sweat or tears to get a card that will show off the new Bling. 

From what I am hearing so far in the forums, I'm not even motivated to look for a better card for myself like the 3090 or 4060's that I was before because of the reports that there are quite a few who have troubles even with those Nvidia's.

The benefit is you don't suddenly wake up one day unable to log in anymore and have to give up your land, like is being suggested.

My 2070 is running PBR fine. Eventually I'll need to look at a 40x0 or 50x0 when they're released (I probably really need a newer CPU first) but that's not a big deal because I've been prepared for this. Constant cycle. I can do just one part at a time over the course of years.

[Omegaslayer]

To everyone trying to find help in this feed don't bother, apparently we're all idiots if we have true stories of how broken second life is currently, or the fact improper software can cause computers to have meltdowns. Or even the fact that we're stupid if we can't afford the most up to date components for our computers. 

 

Edited June 25 by Omegaslayer

[Irina Forwzy]

11 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

There is no benefit Paul. there is the problem. The "eye candy" is not apparent enough to motivate many resident to sell their blood, sweat or tears to get a card that will show off the new Bling. 

From what I am hearing so far in the forums, I'm not even motivated to look for a better card for myself like the 3090 or 4060's that I was before because of the reports that there are quite a few who have troubles even with those Nvidia's.

Que que? Hold on.... Stop the presses!

3090 and 4060s are having issues with PBR? So maybe I'm not in such a bad boat with my Xmas tree looking like Gotham's Christmas feast one!

[Aya Sweetheart]

oh no... people can't use their 10+ year old low end computers any more... what ever shall we do?

I think PBR stuff looks good, besides some water issues that can be worked around so far.

Edited June 25 by Aya Sweetheart

[Dorientje Woller]

5 minutes ago, Omegaslayer said:

To everyone trying to find help in this feed don't bother, apparently we're all idiots if we have true stories of how broken second life is currently, or the fact improper software can cause computers to have meltdowns. Or even the fact that we're stupid if we can't afford the most up to date components for our computers. 

 

Wrong ... there are a bunch that seeking help but refuse to accept that help and refuse to compromise. 

[Omegaslayer]

1 minute ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Wrong ... there are a bunch that seeking help but refuse to accept that help and refuse to compromise. 

i've accepted help from the people who have given good help, who i refuse to listen to are the rage baiters which there are many.

[Qie Niangao]

4 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

3090 and 4060s are having issues with PBR? So maybe I'm not in such a bad boat with my Xmas tree looking like Gotham's Christmas feast one!

Oh, there's a business opportunity! Convince the 4060 owners to trade for our PBR-capable toasters.

[Irina Forwzy]

1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

Oh, there's a business opportunity! Convince the 4060 owners to trade for our PBR-capable toasters.

Nah, if you have a 3090 and a 4060 you may prefer to dish SL and player higher level games.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

PBR-capable toasters

Flashback to: "Video Toaster".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Toaster

[Dorientje Woller]

1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

Oh, there's a business opportunity! Convince the 4060 owners to trade for our PBR-capable toasters.

Or switch to AMD or Intel ARC cards ... I haven't heard those owners complain yet.