Lindens Statements from Governance Meeting

[Coffee Pancake]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

We don't actually know - Lindens / Governance may have to "sign in" to access chat logs (a record would be kept that they "signed in").  Like using a library card (to give an example). 

 

I don't think that matters.

Most of SL is on discord now anyway. Most SL chatter is on discord. Most of my communication with SL friends is now on discord.

Is this intentional or down to nefarious reasons? Nope .. that's just where chat & voice calls has slowly migrated.

LL openly saying our chat logs (? and or other activities) will be scanned by tools to detect "crimes" is only going to accelerate that and further erode trust in the company and governance.
 

Quote

 

[14:19] Keira Linden: We are also in the process now of evaluating several different products and systems to help with proactive moderation.

...

[14:20] Keira Linden: More information will come soon about moderation, but we are looking at tools that will help the team identify potential violations of the Tos or CS.

 

 

"The innocent have nothing to fear" is a pretty dystopian take.

[Anna Salyx]

 

14 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

You can buy cat butthole covers on Amazon. I'm sure some enterprising person can make some to sell on MP.

According to the last Cat's movie, that's completely unnecessary: felines don't have anything to hide there.

5 hours ago, Madi Melodious said:

Maybe, maybe not.   A business can't count on 200 new accounts magically appearing because of some policy changes.  It may happen but mostly likely it won't.  If people are leaving a business and leaving bad reviews and bad word of mouth.  New business seldom comes along if these "reviews" get to many.  

All business deal with churn and the associated activities that surround it.  if the churn rises above a company defined percent, then they might worry some, but we don't know what that magic number is here.

5 hours ago, Madi Melodious said:

I bet you don't' run a business in RL.   You can't survive as a business and constantly alienate your customers.  

AT&T* says "hold my drink."

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

They're stored on the servers for a while, certainly, as part of the simulator logs (I don't know for how long they are kept) but I don't think anyone is actually monitoring them.  They're available if someone needs to read them, but I don't think there are  thousands of Lindens sitting around reading everyone's IMs in real time.

Would depend on what regulatory constraints they are and a company defined Records and Information Management (RIM) policy.  One of the last companies I worked for we kept some records for as long as the Sarbanes-Oxley act required us to, 7 years, and other customer activity records were kept 6 months live on our servers, and another 5 years on offsite tape archives at Iron Mountain. (not sure how much of that was regulatory and how much just company decided policy.

As far as the chat log data here, while not actively monitors, I would bet even odds that it's streamed through an automated filter for specific key words and phrases that would then flag for followup scrutiny.  But then again it might not be.  we'll never really know.

==

*or T-Mobil, or  Verision, or, well, any nationwide company for that matter.  AT&T was chosen simply because they come first in the alphabet.

[Innula Zenovka]

42 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

At this rate LL are going to find out why end-to-end encryption of user communication matters to corporations the hard way.

It's also notable that this is a key reason why the quest for businesses to hold meetings in SL can't ever succeed. It's plain text all the way down.

You can bet LL wouldn't use a messaging service for their own communication that wasn't secure from the operator of that service.

I thought the abandoned that particular quest years ago, after M Linden left and Rodvik Linden (Rod Humble) took over way back when.

[Innula Zenovka]

4 minutes ago, Anna Salyx said:

As far as the chat log data here, while not actively monitors, I would bet even odds that it's streamed through an automated filter for specific key words and phrases that would then flag for followup scrutiny.  But then again it might not be.  we'll never really know.

Given the topic under discussion, I'd have thought a big problem for any automated monitoring system would be that the same conversations in IMs might be perfectly legal or a gross breach of the ToS depending on what bodies either or both the participants happened to be wearing at the time.    

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I thought the abandoned that particular quest years ago, after M Linden left and Rodvik Linden (Rod Humble) took over way back when.

It's still touted as a thing on SL's home page, believe it or not.

[Love Zhaoying]

LL will probably add encryption, then people will complain about THAT.

Now taking bets!

[Coffee Pancake]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It's still touted as a thing on SL's home page, believe it or not.

Yup ..

From the privacy policy

Quote

Please note that our Services may offer chat functions (either one-to-one or within a limited group) or other forms of communication services (such as real time voice communication either one-to-one or within a limited group), forums, community environments (including multiplayer gameplay) or other tools that are either restricted to other account holders or Services users or that do not have a restricted audience and can be accessible by anyone. Any information, content or communications, including personal information, you provide when you use any of these features will be available to the recipients (dependent on the nature of the tool) and may be publicly posted and otherwise disclosed without limitation as to its use by us or by a third party.  

These things are mutually exclusive.

You can host your company meeting in SL, and LL can sell your chatter to your competitors.

 

[Madi Melodious]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

 

Years ago a friend of mines business tried to have meetings in SL.  He even had an account paid for by his corp for years.   They had maybe two or three meetings, eveyone kept showing up as cat, dragons, and all kinds of goofy critters for the meeting.   They never could get anyone to behave in a professional manner,  or even look the part.  They pulled the plug on the meetings but didn't pull the plug on the SL accounts till almost a ten years later.

[Rowan Amore]

15 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

that do not have a restricted audience and can be accessible by anyone

If you're on a private estate in local.chat, that is a restricted audience and that communication is not accessible to anyone other than those on the estate.  I'd assume that is what a company would do.

[Coffee Pancake]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

If you're on a private estate in local.chat, that is a restricted audience and that communication is not accessible to anyone other than those on the estate.  I'd assume that is what a company would do.

It's accessible to LL and written into the logs forever .. and they can (as they state very clearly) do whatever they like with it.

I'm not sure automatically monitoring chat (?)  in SL to detect ToS violations is going to land with individual users very differently.

Fun isn't so fun with a big brother in the room.

[Love Zhaoying]

33 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

These things are mutually exclusive.

I hate it when I want to be in a relationship, but the other avatar just wants to be "mutually exclusive".

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

They're stored on the servers for a while, certainly, as part of the simulator logs (I don't know for how long they are kept) but I don't think anyone is actually monitoring them.  They're available if someone needs to read them, but I don't think there are  thousands of Lindens sitting around reading everyone's IMs in real time.

I once got into an argument in local at a club with the DJ, on a forbidden topic. If anyone had sent the conversation to LL, I'd probably have been banned. They did save it and send it to my partner though, so I had a big blow up with her over it. 😁

[brodiac90]

People are surprised that LL monitors chat and IM logs? 

I actually think them taking proactive measures is a good thing. They have been far too reactionary with pedofiles to date. Requiring child avatars wear modesty layers is part of the solution but it's not 'the solution,' they also need to go after the people who engage in that sort of activity. 

Edited May 10 by brodiac90

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, brodiac90 said:

People are surprised that LL monitors chat and IM logs? 

I actually think them taking proactive measures is a good thing. They have been fair too reactionary with pedofiles to date. Requiring child avatars wear modesty layers is part of the solution but it's not 'the solution,' they also need to go after the people who engage in that sort of activity. 

 

Which people will feel applies to way more than just the handful of edge cases governance are worried about, rapidly escalates to a general sense that "it's not safe to talk in SL, lets do that part someplace else" ...

It will have a huge chilling effect on all communication, whatever the subject matter, because no one will feel safe, even those doing nothing wrong at all.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

When proactively scanning chat logs, I hope that LL appreciates our "active meditations", bible studies, and group affirmations.

Wholesome chat For The Win!

 

[Love Zhaoying]

19 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It will have a huge chilling effect on all communication, whatever the subject matter, because no one will feel safe, even those doing nothing wrong at all.

I added emphasis to the quote above.

Not everyone is paranoid.  I am NOT name-calling, just stating that the way you described it sounds like paranoia.

Idea: We need "safe word" phrases that discretely call for Linden help, like "CALL 911"; when used, they would be like a marker in the chat log. 

(I am bad at coming up with "safe word" phrases due to a personal traumatic experience, or would suggest something better than "CALL 911".)

 

 

Edited May 10 by Love Zhaoying

[Persephone Emerald]

3 hours ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Mhmm. The way I break it down in my mind is ...

There are furries just in the standard human bodies with animalistic kinds of fur/skin BoM skins, and even with the special feet and hands they can add, are still merely human and can generally wear human clothes from any brand.

Next I find there are anthro types that use avatars from Jomo, TWI, etc that are more "feral"(? someone in the community correct me if that's the wrong term) where they are clearly animals with realistic fur, scales etc and not needing clothes at all unless they have visible sexual or sexually-associated body parts.

Then there are the pure animals. They do not have genitalia. My cat and deer avatars from TWI fall into that category, as would anything that RezzRoom made if they were actually avatars (and not just animated props), and I can't see anyone suggesting that my buck or doe would need any sort of covering, even if the doe was a smaller one.

Note: Would love to see RezzRoom move into the avatar business. Oh yes.

When an animal avatar stands on 2 legs like a human, it's an anthro furry (unless it's a werewolf or a scaley).

When an animal avatar looks like a real animal it's a feral furry.

Nekos and other mostly human avatars with animal ears & tails are debatably furries too, though many furries don't think so.

There might be another designation for fantasy creature avatars too.
(What if a centaur has genitalia? Do they have to wear pants now?)

 

Timber Wolf Industries specializes in realistic animal avatars. Other creators make alternate fur colors, attachments, vocalizations, furniture, & etc. for them.

Teegle, Waterhorse & others make horse & wolf avatars and ridable horses.

Rezz Room makes mostly companion animals, but they're making a few animal avatars too now. 

Jian makes animated decor and companion animals.

Jinx makes both realistic & fantasy animal avatars & companion animals.

A bunch of other creators make animal avatars, both realistic & fantasy.

Most animal avatars do not come with genitalia, but they can be purchased from other creators.

[Ineffable Mote]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Idea: We need "safe word" phrases that discretely call for Linden help, like "CALL 911"; when used, they would be like a marker in the chat log. 

 

 

I suggest Help > Report Abuse

as every viewer has a functional Abuse Report option all ready, and no one will see you doing the deed.

[Innula Zenovka]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Yup ..

From the privacy policy

These things are mutually exclusive.

You can host your company meeting in SL, and LL can sell your chatter to your competitors.

 

Depends on the meeting, I think.  If it's a public meeting, then that's not a problem.   

It's a bit silly, really -- if a business wants security then it can surely spin up its own private world on its own servers, with OpenSim.   But if you don't need that, and for some reason want a change from Zoom or Google Meet, then SL's a possibility, I guess.

[brodiac90]

Leading on from my non binary post, I thought it might be a good idea to provide a proof of concept in order to show that it is possible for the same avatar to present in lots of different ways depending on the user's choices. 

Here are three different images of my avatar.

• I did not change the body, shape or skin. 
• I did change hair, clothing, accessories and poses. 

 

Edited May 10 by brodiac90

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, Ineffable Mote said:

15 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Idea: We need "safe word" phrases that discretely call for Linden help, like "CALL 911"; when used, they would be like a marker in the chat log. 

 

 

I suggest Help > Report Abuse

as every viewer has a functional Abuse Report option all ready, and no one will see you doing the deed.

There used to be a way to "Summon a Linden NOW". 🙂

I saw it with my own eyes, it was beautiful.  They dealt with griefers on the spot.

 

[Persephone Emerald]

8 hours ago, Madi Melodious said:

You can't survive as a business and constantly alienate your customers.  

1 hour ago, Anna Salyx said:

 

AT&T* says "hold my drink."

[snip]

*or T-Mobil, or  Verision, or, well, any nationwide company for that matter.  AT&T was chosen simply because they come first in the alphabet.

...or Pacific Gas & Electric, Meta, or many other big corporations.

- But Linden Lab holds the loyalty of its customers in large part because they value our individuality and expectation of privacy.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, brodiac90 said:

Leading on from my non binary post, I thought it might be a good idea to provide a proof of concept in order to show that it is possible for the same avatar to present in lots of different ways depending on the user's choices. 

Here are three different images of my avatar.

• I did not change the body, shape or skin. 
• I did change clothing, accessories and poses. 

 

While I do not approve of guns (in general), at least that child is holding a "toy" gun with an orange "safety-tip".

[brodiac90]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

While I do not approve of guns (in general), at least that child is holding a "toy" gun with an orange "safety-tip".

Glad you noticed 😄

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Depends on the meeting, I think.  If it's a public meeting, then that's not a problem.   

It's a bit silly, really -- if a business wants security then it can surely spin up its own private world on its own servers, with OpenSim.   But if you don't need that, and for some reason want a change from Zoom or Google Meet, then SL's a possibility, I guess.

These days, most companies already use Zoom or Microsoft Teams, etc. for voice meetings (and chat within the meeting). So if they didn't trust the LL security they could just continue to do that for the voice part of the meeting.  That would also easily accommodate those who do not have the ability to login to SL but need to attend the meeting.